BioPellets with Vodka Dosing - Your Thoughts
 

Well, as you all know, this hobby never stops.

I am now intertaining the thought of using a bit of Vodka with the BioPellets. Just want to see if maybe the 2 together and take things even farther. But won't/don't want to do anything without research and others thoughts.

Reason for this thought is because I have a large bioload, now my water is really clear, no algae of any sort. So things are good. But some corals just don't color up, so this the reason for this thread.

Anyone jusing BioPellets and still dosing Vodka? If so, what type of vodka, what type of dosages in regards to volume of pellets and total water volume of the system.

Other reefers input is much appreciated and I look forward to hearing them.

Rick

What are your parameters before Biopellets and currently?

Whats the point? why not cut the bio-pellets and just go to vodka dosing?

That is the reason I am asking, maybe no point.

Reason I am thinking is because my bioload is very large, and I don't have enough room to add more pellets. The advantage of pellets over vodka, is that when in reactors, you don't have to add everyday. Basically with vodka, you have to be very regimated with it and can't miss dosages.

Don't get me wrong here, I am an advocate for the NP BioPellets, and if you saw my system before them, you would to. They have had a very positive impact to my system, and if I could add even more I would, just no room in my sump, unless you have ideas there instead.

Now in saying this, since I can't add more reactors, I was thinking will a 2-4 drops/daily of vodka aid the pellets and give more for the system to use? This is why I am asking.

This is just a thought, could be nonsense, the reason I am posting. I have also heard many doing both with great results also, but trying to find articles to base this on.

Another idea I had:

In order to run more pellets, I am also maybe thinking of removing the 2 reactors and somehow using a salt pail to keep the pellets in. Research has shown that if you can run more in a bigger container (larger surface area) the bacterial growth is significant.

So in saying this, anyone have any ideas on how I could do this instead? I would rather just use the pellets. But need to figure out how to do it. A salt pail won't fit in my refuge, so maybe an external unit needs to be created. If something can be created here, I would entertain this thought over adding vodka.

I guess, what I am trying to say here, I want more carbon!!!! I prefer pellets, as they do have many more benefits to vodka, but room is a factor!

Any ideas?

I use pellets and keep dosing some sugar, that allows me fine tunnig.

I had my reactors out to clean, so I added another 1L of pellets between the 2 reactors. Lets see if that helps more.

Also, thanks for the comment... What kind of dosage do you give in relation to water volume? Is the sugar granular or made into a liquid?

I use a solution 50% by weight. I dose 1ml/day in 3 portions (1/3ml each) for a 90 gal system.

May I ask why you choose sugar over vodka or vinegar? Just wondering as I no nothing about this form of dosing. thanks.

Sugar, vodka, vinegar or a mixture of them all work. When I first started dosing carbon, I did it with vodka. It didn't work right for me, I got lots of red slime so I switched to sugar and it worked for me.

Interesting :). The beauty of the pellets as you pointed out is that you don't have to touch them for a while. Certainly no daily chore. They certainly do reduce nitrates and phosphates but not with the same gusto as Zeo. It sounds like you are willing to put in a little more effort in the form of daily dosing chores in order to get better results. If that's the case then why not just ditch the pellets and Vodka/sugar/vinegar and go the zeo route? Seems to me that anyone willing and able to put up with the zeo chores should go that route.

Hey, I am still using zeolites and zeo dosing. I just think my bioload is too large maybe.

I won't ditch the pellets, as they are doing a better job, than just zeo alone... Personally I didn't have much success with the Zeolites only. I put them back in just recently, as I have several bags and running with the pellets, again just seeing what happens.

I did get another 1L of pellets in the reactors tonight, and also a few days ago, I removed the running of the reactors independantly to now running them inline. Research is showing that running inline will be better.

I guess, I will just wait and see. Zeolites are about 1.5 months old, and are the first batch since starting them back up, so almost time to exchange them with new and more.

I will hold back on the vodka/sugar/vinegar dosing and see what happens now with the extra pellets and the running of them inline and tumbling slowly. REMEMBER THE TUMBLING IS KEY FOR PELLETS, THEY NEED TO TUMBLE VERY GENTLY.

If you see my tank, I think you all would be impressed, don't get me wrong it looks great!!! But many of you that know me, know that I am very anal and a perfectionist, and some coral:lol:s can be better, so I want it that way. HEHE

Wow you are on Zeo and pellets?? Don't know too many people doing that. You must have an insane Bioload :lol:

That's interesting that you didn't get better results out of zeo. I always thought that Zeo alone was pretty efficient at nutrient reduction.

On another note:

As I just stated, I am running a full regime of Zeo... Maybe I shouldn't be?

I run:
- Coral Snow
- Zeo Zyme
- Zeo Bak
- Coral Vitalizers
- K Balance
- LPS Amino Acid
- Amino Acid drops
- Food 7
- Pohls Extra (haven't used for a couple months now)

The by-product of the pellets is food for corals, maybe the Zeo dosing is just adding more nutrients, causing the browning of some corols. Any ideas here, maybe I should cut out some of the Zeo dosing? Never thought of that.

I know, I spared no expense on the Zeo, and it kinda failed for me. Since the pellets, I love the results, but they are not perfect. What's your thoughts on my previous post?

I've never heard of anyone running both so I don't really know.. Lots of people use those additives with success so I don't see why you couldn't. That is unless your tank currently has high nutrient levels, then maybe stop dosing those additives and work on reducing those nutrients first.

What are you testing with? Pin point nitrate? Hana phosphate or other? I have found that after having used a pin point nitrate meter and the Hana digital phosphate meter that all previous test kits were difficult for me to determine actual values.

How many fish do you have and what corals are you keeping?

Most of the corals are SPS, some acans, some zoas and softies.

Water=1.025
Water Temp=80'C, this doesn't fluctuate that much
PH=8.3
ALK=7-8, based on Zeo... When I had removed the zeolites I raised it to 10-11, but now back down to 8ish
Ca=400
Mg=1350
K=400
Nitrite=0.02
Ammonia=0.15-0.2
Nitrate - I don't know, need to get another kit.

Please note all test results above were done yesterday. I use only ELOS test kits.

Fish:
- Sohal Tang (medium size)
- Blonde Naso (small)
- Hippo Tang (medium)
- Yellow Tang (full)
- Blue Throat Trigger (small)
- Foxface (full)
- 2 Barred Rabbit (medium)
- Maroon Clown
- Flame Angel
- Potters Angel
- half a dozen small fish (chromis, cardinals and 1 mandarin)

As you can see I don't have many fish, but do have larger species. Now they are not big by any means yet, but when my sohal tang POOPS, well he really lets go. :lol:

Cleaning Crew:
- hundreds/thousands of snails. What can I say, they are really breeding, lots of little guys every night that come out. Also about 150-200 larger snails that I had purchased in the beginning.
- 4 sand sifting stars (3 I just got today)
- 1 sand sifting shrimp (just got today)
- No cleaner shrimp, they keep disappearing, I think I have a mantis/pistal shrimp based on the clicks I here sometimes. Stopped buying as it was a waste of money
- 2 long spine urchins
- 1 blue star
- 1 Coral Banded Shrimp
- 1 Purple Clawed Lobster - what a waste of money, I never see him, but if I search I can find him, but he never comes out.

I never really stopped the Zeo, but again I don't dose the recommended, as even before the pellets, I found the recommended too much. Also the Zeo gurus say that it is also true (I frequent zeovit.com). So I currently dose about 60% of the recommended for everything.

After researching on the zeovit site, they recommend not dosing Food7, Bac and Start when using the Pellets. So I think I should not use anymore Food7 or Bac, and see what happens. Also they say to remove the Zeolites, but should I? Can I just leave them but not add the ZeoBac?

Your thoughts?

your not dosing Zeostart ?

Nope not anymore.

I have slept on it and decided to keep going with how it is setup already, that is with the Zeolites still running and the dosing.

My reasoning is that before I put the Zeolites back in things were very good, but can say that I had a couple patches of very fine green algae on couple areas of glass that I don't clean. Since adding the zeolites back in, about 2 weeks after, these are now 100% gone, and the urchins and snails have cleaned the glass bare. I am very happy about that. So I decided this morning to leave as is, but with the extra 1L of Pellets I just added, and I even slowed down the flow more on the pellets. Results are great, now lets see if I can get perfect. HEHE.

Wow how many liters of pellets are you running in total now?

It almost seems to me like both methods are going to compete with one another for nutrients, thus reducing the full potential of both? I read up in this last night on the zeovit forum and even within the "I'm trying pellets with zeo" thread there doesn't seem to be too many people doing it. For those that are experimenting it doesn't seem like too many have chimed in with results.

You really want to know, YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW!!!! :lol:

Well, I have about 5L of pellets running, maybe 6L. The nice thing about this product, as stated, you can`t overdose like with Vodka, sugar or vinegar. The reason for this is the pellets don`t get used unless the bacteria needs/wants them and as long as the nitrates/phospates is present for them to consume. And you are correct, again not much in the way of test results out there, isn't this hobby fun!

In regards to them competing with the Zeolites, I don't know. The reason for my decision to keep it going the same, is because I haven't seen any detramental things happen, but actual the reverse, more good things. Well is that because of the Zeolites? I don't really know, it could be just a coincadense.

From what I understand, Zeolites and Pellets nurish different strains of bacteria. So will they compete, being different maybe not. Also one of the benefits of the pellets is the bacteria growth is restricted to within the reactor, they do not grow any further on live rock or other surfaces outside the reactor itself. I don't believe Zeolites are the same. Again will they compete? I don't think so, but again I could be 100% wrong here.

I think what we need is a Guru here to state why I should remove the Zeolites and explain why. I will remove them based on a reasonable explanation, but as of this morning I am keeping them in.

Please Guru's pipe in here, I want to know... Like many others.

I removed mine and basically regretted it. It took the tank many months to recover properly even though I disbanded it gradually.

Really, it didn't do well, removing the Zeolites?

As you know, I also removed mine, but not gradually. I just turned off and took out, I didn't really see anything bad though.

Are you putting the zeolites back in? also with Pellets? That is what I am doing, and as stated above, I run alot of pellets. HEHE.

Yeah there was definitely a reaction in the tank after the zeolites were taken out. Film algae over the glass like crazy, nitrates and phosphates crept up very quickly. I had to tailor back the feedings quite a bit for the tank to be able to adjust.

I was sort of planning on doing both zeo and pellets with the new tank but mostly on account that I seem to have all the stuff and might as well use it, or lose it. I'm choosing "use" for the time being but will see where it takes me down the road.

Just looking at your signature...you have 350 lbs of live rock in a 180 gallon tank? That makes me wonder if you removed some rock for better circulation you may be able to easily reduce your nutrients that way. 350 lbs of live rock is a lot of rock to be in the way of the powerheads.

Just a thought...sometimes more chemicals or more dosing isn't the answer, and is a battle you won't win.

Good Point, but flow is pretty good. Every once in a while I will point the powerheads behind the rock, to see if anything (crud, deitris) comes out and very little does. Also my rock is well spaced out, not just piled. I have lots of caves and holes. Also, I like the landscaping... I don't have that much rock compared to others I have seen, and still have room. Lastly, if you look into the holes, back areas, you can see stringy spongy moving from the current, so I don't think that is the problem.

I am not having any algae issues whatsoever. Nothing bad like that, just trying to get SPS to color up better. And as you can see with my parameters, nothing is out of line.

Any other thoughts?

Just a few thoughts:
-I don't think you have a high bio load, so don't over compensate the filtration
-There is too much rocks in the tank, unless you like that sort of presentation
-You don't need that much amount of pellets to achieve the same result
-bio pellets are good at reducing nitrate and phosphate, but it won't automatically enhance coral colors. Low nitrate/phoshate is only a small part of a big equation in achieving vivid colors.
-try the opposite, feed your livestock more and leave the water a little "dirtier", maybe your water is too "clean"

What if you blow the powerheads at the rock? Any detritus come flying off there?

Why do you have ammonia and nitrite? What test kits do you use for each test?

I notice you don't have readings for nitrate or phosphate. Provided the "big three" (and K imo) are in check, I have found that NO3 and PO4 are very good at browning out SPS. I find the Salifert kit for nitrate is sufficient and keeping nitrate below 5 ppm is essential for good SPS coloration although I find the best coloration when nitrate is undetectable with a Salifert kit. I use a Merck high sensitivity kit for phosphate as I find anything greater than 0.15 ppm in the water will cause SPS colors to diminish. You need a high sensitivity kit to read these low levels.

Excuse me, but I don't have to read the entire thread. Are you using any sort of phosphate absorbing media? I use GFO on any SPS tanks (and at different times in non-SPS tanks). I really find it makes a huge difference in SPS coloration whether phosphate is problematic or not. Lots of GFO, and little carbon imo. I find huge amounts of carbon will reduce polyp extension on SPS. I use carbon intermittently because of this (just a day or two per week). Some people have mixed reefs with chemically aggressive corals where limited carbon use isn't possible.

Which brings up another point. Many corals are chemically aggressive; like leathers, GSP, Zoas, and Palys. The presence of these corals in an SPS system can and will diminish SPS coloration, polyp extension, and growth. Using carbon will help to absorb many chemicals released by corals, but that's a catch 22 as described above. Keeping away from some of the worst chemical fighters is a good plan, or remove them entirely.

Personally, I would ditch the Biopellets (I'm not sold on their claims). I would run GFO in a reactor. Run carbon passively and intermittently if possible. Play around with the use of Zeolites instead of Biopellets, vodka, or any other "raw" carbon dosing. I'm a stickler for reef designed products. I find the use of "raw" chemicals (calcium, sodium bicarbonate, vodka, etc) to be far inferior to reef designed products. I'm a huge fan of balling salts, which are essentially super pure raw chemicals designed for reefs with some interesting chemical engineering and secret ingredients.

HTH.

Nope very clean over all, of course a bit can come off, as sand and some debri can settle, but nothing much

I use ELOS, so I don't cheap out on the testing, that is important. And I bought new kits, just in case some were bad and no change in results.

I will go buy the phosphate, and as stated I also ran out of nitrate, so need to order more. Haven't done phasphate for awhile, as I never had a problem, so just stopped buying it. ELOS can do both high and low sensitivity, they usually come able to do both.

Nope, no phosphate media, not suppose to with Pellets or with Zeo, so I have never done so. I only use 1L of carbon (Kent Reef Carbon) in a reactor and change it out every month. Again, carbon is part of the Zeo method. 1L is below what my tank is needing, probably should have 1.5L for the water volume, but keeping it at 1L.

I see many sps tanks with zoas, like what I have without issue. So not sure this is an issue. Not sure here.

I won't ditch the pellets, unlike most others, I have seen great results from them. Like no cyano, algae of any sort, before them I had lots. So they do work when used properly. Which is the problem, most reefers using pellets are using them incorrectly. I was one of them also, but now I can testify how to use, based on actually having instructions from manufacturer and actual documentation of other reefers. And I do think having the Zeolites with them are enhancing things, again I have no scientific evidence, but if I see it looking good, why remove. As per Tony/Delphinus, he regretted removing his, and saw things regress when he did.

Otherwise with calcium, magnesium, etc... I don't have anything automated and control this manually. I do have a daily regime of dosing and additions of supplements. Just did my tests, and can say all is perfect as usual.

I also looked around today and will make this claim. I was running my lights for 11 hours, now things have been really cut back for the past 2 weeks. I will now say I am seeing polyp extension of SPS that never had any. This is a good thing. Also these same frags/colonies are starting to show lightening in color, again not much yet, but I am noticing areas of change. The big thing for me is POLYP EXTENSION, I like this and tells me they are much happier.

So what I am saying is light is very important, and too much light probably isn't good either, which would be my case. I will post on this as the weeks/months progress.

Also water quality continues to look impicable. It is soooooo clear, and again no algae's. So this is why I have decided not to change things. So pellets and Zeolites will remain, until such time I see really bad things, I cannot justify removing them. Yes I am a big promoter of the BioPellets, but again they have always worked on their claims. "I have no algae and cyano", and I had alot... so how can I say they don't work, they do... I just want better coral color, that is my big problem I guess. But with the light changes over the past 2 weeks, I am seeing slow changes there now also.

The reason I was asking about Vodka dosing, was I thought it may assist in coloring up of SPS, I now realize this probably won't be the case. So I have now concluded to NOT dose vodka and keep on going on what I do already and NO changes will happen to my current setup.

Thanks for all the info everyone, please feel free to voice your opinions, I love to hear them. Even if I don't use them. But I do listen, believe me.

I also want to comment on my sandbed. I don't clean it with a sand vacumm, and if I stirred it you could see alot of brown sludge come out of it.

I had one sand sifting star and some snails. The snails (i can't remember the species, but they have light brown on the shell with white and are sand sifters also). My thinking was that the sand may be releasing nitrates/phosphates/etc, so I had bought 4 more sand sifting stars last week. I also just bought 3 more today. So now have 8 sand sifting stars, with the snails and a sand sifting shrimp. It can't hurt!!!

Plus with all those stars my sand bed is looking nice and fluffy/puffy with them going in and out of it.

The only thing that would bother me is the fact that I wouldn't know if one or the other method is working. Sure, both zeolites and pellets could be working, but because you run both there is truly no way of telling. It could be the zeolites stripping nutrients or it could be the pellets. In the end you don't know for sure, you just have to assume.

If all other parameters are fine and you truly are running an ULNS then then I would say you should look beyond just the removal of nutrients for your unsatisfactory SPS colours. As you have already done, lighting is one factor. The inclusion of certain nutrients is another factor in a very long list of others. Heck maybe how your SPS looks now is their natural state :)

Rick I think you have solved your problem if your halides were running for 11 hours a day, cut it back to 5 or 6 gradually and you should see the improvements continue. Do you add anything to the tank as far as AA goes?

I agree 100% with you, and thought about removing... But Tony/Delphinus regretting removing his. So that is why, I may remove and nothing happens, and this was the case the first time I removed it. But that may not be the case the second time, so I am leaving it for now. Also I am basing this on the fact the both methods use different strains of bacteria and different methods. The Pellets basically keep the strains within the reactor and never populate within the reef itself, but the Zeo method releases them into the water columm and into the reef. Now could both interact with each other, well yes I think so, but I am not seeing any adverse affects. I wish there was more info/articles on this. But until I find some, I am experimenting I guess.

I hope the way they look isn't there natural state, cause they sure looked better when I bought them. Please don't tell me that!!! EWWWW Yuck!

I think maybe lighting and sandbed are factors here, thus the reason for some changes. And if not, both are still good changes.

Lets see what happens over the next month or so... Hopefully I keep seeing improvements as I am seeing now. And if I still am not happy, then I think I will look at the actual bulbs in the fixture.

Currently I run the original Hamilton Actinics with Ushio 10K bulbs. Maybe now or later I should look at changing them. What do you think? Maybe 14K in a good brand (what do you recommend?) in MH and doing something other than actinic T5HO (I only have 2X5foot T5HO), maybe a 10K there, or maybe a actinic in the back and 10K in the front. I have spent so much many on the past fixture expirementing I will take requests from you all on this. Don't want to own a storefront of bulbs that didn't work.

Yup, I use Zeo AA normal drops and the more concentrated liquid. Don't dose recommended, but about 50-60% of recommended.

But I agree, I probably was torching the corals with the light. With the coralife fixture I had it running the 11 hours also, but it just shows you how much better the hamilton is, I guess. As my wife said, it kinda started at the same time I got the new light.

It just upsets me to see all these beautiful colors in all your reef's. I am really envious here, as I don't have them. AND I SHOULD!!!, it isn't like I neglect things and I do love my tank.

Well jeez, it doesn't sound like you like any of my suggestions! :p

Eep! :eek: You will essentially end up with a sterile sandbed with starfish. I'm not a fan of them at all, they are pigs, and eat too many good critters imo. I much prefer small conches like Strawberry, Fighting, or Orange Lip. Small sifting gobies that don't make a mess like Hector's or Randal's are great too.

Elos doesn't compare to Merck. That's like comparing Mercedes to Rolls Royce. The Mercedes is really nice, but not beside the RR! :p

Oh, but you're not supposed to used Biopellets with Zeo either! ;) I'm quite familar with the Zeo method as I used it myself for a couple years. I ditched it for the most part several months ago for ease of maintenance and my want to use GFO again. However, I do use Zeolites as well, just not the entire Zeo system anymore. It does fine with GFO and minimal carbon.

So have I, as have most others. Many are very successfully kept, but trust me when I say there is a difference when you remove chemically aggressive corals from an SPS tank.

Increased polyp extension is very typical when halides are cut back. It is a reaction that will likely slowly fade over time as the corals get used to the new regime. Do you have supplemental lighting? I find most corals do best with a low light cycle, followed by high light cycle, finished with low light cycle. For example, run T5s for ~12 hours per day, and halides for 6-8 hours per day midday. Corals in general don't like to be blasted by halides for 11 or 12 hours per day, and not so suddenly either, it is stressful.

Ya, it's frustrating though when people ask for advice, brush it off, and don't follow any of it. :wink:

Myka, sorry, its not that I don't like anything, I am just going to see where things go, and in most cases, what I have is working, just things aren't perfect.

I haven't heard of Merck, always used ELOS, so I will look into that.

With Zeo and BioPellets. You can't say you are not suppose to mix both, as there really isn't anything documented to support that, nor is there anything to support that you can. Zeo guru's recommend not mixing, but nothing scientific to prove either circumstances. So as I stated, I am experimenting, and because things are working, I am leaving it all in. If I take out the Zeolites, nothing bad may happen, but it may... So if I am not seeing anything bad, then just leave it for now.

With the lighting, I turn on the actinics at 9am, then at 5pm the halides come on, and then turn off at 10pm (prime viewing time for me and the family). Then the actinics turn off at 11pm. I am always interested in changing the lighting schedule or even the types of bulbs, being brand or Kelvin/Par. So any advice there would be appreciated. I think the hamilton is just proving to be a much better brand fixture than the coralife, I am just finding out the hard way as my corals did well with the old schedule when the coralife was being used.

In regards to your advice, please don't be offended. I do appreciate everything and believe me I may make more changes. But at this time, I am not going to jump and be to aggressive with my changes. Thinking things over, this is the best approach, but as time progresses I may make further changes, and some of your advice and others may come into play. Again, please don't take offense, non was intended, and nothing was brushed off and may be used in future. Also look at this... This thread may also help others, and we all cannot lose scope of what canreef is about... Helping everyone!

Again thanks for the time you took to give me your input.

Rick

I don't think that there is anything "scientific" that proves that any of those zeo bottles actually do anything for our corals. Not sure that there is anything "scientific" that proves that Bio pellets do anything either. Is it not one part theoretical and one part belief system ? :biggrin: That probably sums up the whole hobby actually..

HEHE, I agree... I have probably just bought into the "Ole Snake Oil" Treatment for many things.

And again I agree with you, this whole hobby is like playing with a nuclear bomb, one wrong move and VOILA, crashed tank. But where would this hobby be, if people didn't experiment.