Well it happened again.....and yet again*updated*
 

Well about 5-6years ago I got a rock of some ugly zoos didn't know much about them but they were sure slimey. I handled them with my bare hands. Well a day after getting them I tried fragging them up it went ok but a ton of slime and stink. That night I became very very sick throwing up I was freezing and had uncontrollable shaking but yet I was sweating so I thought a I had a fever. 3AM the wife takes me the emergency room they took me in quick I had no fever but I was drenched in sweat but felt I was freezing. They put me on IV did a bunch of tests and couldn't find anything...and it went away as fast as it came on. We thought it was a touch of the flu but I few days later while surfing found out zoos can be toxic. So put 2+2 together and figured that what it was. So from that day forward if you been to my house I trust nothing in my tank and I glove up.

Fast forward to last night ripped down my tank to get out a damsel I used my armpit long corallife gloves to take out most of the rock then switched to surgical gloves for more precission I doubled gloved cause I was handling rocks. I got the fish out and decided to clean the tank some. My back wall had about 200 of the ugly zoos growing up the glass so i scraped them off with a razor blade and tossed them. Since I had taken out 10gal of water for a water change the water was on bypass and just circulating through the sump and not going into the display. Those zoos where not happy and was letting off lots of slime that was circulating in the display...but I was double gloved. Clean everything up washed up real good with anti bacterial soap then had a shower.
Just before I went to bed around midnight I noticed my throat was sore and swollen thought great I'm getting a cold. About 2AM the dog started to breath heavy and wimper and pace. The wife got up and got the dog to drink and to eat and took her outside. She seemed fine and she had like a laboured breathing wife got up again made her drink some water took her out side again thought she was consipated we took her for a walk at 3am but she wasn't. She was fine in every way except the breathing I thought oh oh she might have licked some zoo water off then floor from drips, after a hour and half she was fine.
Then about 3:45 it hit me the freezing uncontrolled sweating/shaking but once again no fever the wife knew what was coming and fed me a ton of water, gravol and tylenol. I was almost struggling to breath and couldn't stop shaking after about 2.5 hours I was on fire and couldn't get cooled down the wife said if it goes past 6 I'm taking you in but it seemed to stop my throat opened back up and we got some sleep. I slept most of the am and now the dog and I are fine except every muscle and bone in my body hurts.

So if you are like me and have sensitive skin watch out for zoo/paly slime it can be toxic. Which I assume it absorbed via my forearms. So be careful out there when fragging....and keep the pets away

Here is some reading on Palytoxins


http://cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palytoxin

Geez, Glad to hear you are both okay. It is a good reminder to us all.

Whoa...crazy! I bought those crazy long gloves, but rarely use them. Great reminder why we should use them!

I hate that the corals I love will likely kill me one day! I am glad you're alright. I need gloves!

If you were moving rock, you might have also stirred up some bacteria which got onto you and the floor. You would be surprised how sick this can make you. I have come down sick after working in the tank before (before I had zoas even) and after a bit of looking around it appears to be quite common and it is usually foreign bacteria like e. coli, etc (I even learned that diseases such as TB can be passed to you from fish... weird!).

I'm glad you are alive and well and as is your dog. Reefs are death traps and it makes me wonder sometimes... saltwater, tons of electricity, poisonous critters, stining corals, mystery rashes (not wrasses)... Count me in!

You may have inhaled some air born toxin that the zoes let go of. That would be the most likely reason your were having problems breathing and the dog also. I have asthma and have a personal attachment with breathing, I have died from asthma once; it's quite the experience. Chemicals can pass through the skin quite easily and may cause your through to contract and you may go into antipathetic shock.

This is what I think was happening you got the shocks and fever from your arms being in the goop and the zoes reals-ed a toxin into the air also which you and the dog inhaled causing your throat to constrict. so I would wear a mask and the long gloves if I were you. As the cumulative effect can be deadly I am also allergic to bee stings and when a wasp bits me old bites swell up also, I carry a eppy pen all the time if it is not on me it is in my truck...

Bill

Never underestimate Palytoxin danger !
 

Dear Murminator,

You were very lucky! Palytoxins constrict heart muscles and can cause heart failure! The secondary attack is on red blood cells themselves and you and poochie both showed signs of similar nature tho you won't see a dog sweat...

The poison easily enters thru any skin tissue and orafice and acts surprisingly quickly. People often miss things like wiping foreheads with back of hand and getting a few droplets on facial skin!!!! That's all it takes! :laluot_20:

Your wife responded very correctly by getting all that water into you! The sweating is your body trying to rid itself of toxin and the feverish symptoms tell you the same thing.

It's good you did go to hospital as the potential for heart failure was very real.

Granted, I'm a relative newbie to saltwater; I am well versed in natural healing methodologies. One might consider Haberno tincture to level (lower/increase) blood pressure if you find your heart racing. You cannot overdose on this tincture and the worst that can happen is you toss it up. Should you actually go into obvious heart attack, you might down a full ounce of straight cayenne tincture... it can be administered orally by your partner even if you are unconscious. :laluot_32:

However, if your throat constricts; it may be time for antihistamines and a very fast ride to hospital!

Few doctors will immediately recognize symptoms as Palytoxin without you blatantly telling them that you think it's what's happening.

We all tend to think we are super tough when younger and we can often survive events easily. Palytoxin is not something to be underestimated and there are many aquarists who love Zoa's and Palys but refuse to keep them because they are thaaaat dangerous.

Glad you are fine and poochie too,

Bunny

p.s. love my Zoa's but am Hazmat ready to handle them and a face shield is a great idea.... been there and survived!!!!

Scary! Glad to hear you and your dog are doing ok now. You may be interested to know if you ever have a different type of reaction due to your sensitivity, that heat applied to the area renders most toxins from our tanks/corals null. I have sensitivities as well, and am allergic to bee stings too. On the weekend I accidentally rubbed my wrist along my ricordia's without really feeling anything until I pulled my arm out of the tank. Have glove's but hate to use them. As soon as my arm was out in the air it was insanely red and itchy, and right away started to blister up, much like chicken pox. I tried antihistimine, afterbite and special creams I have been told to take but nothing worked and it got worse really quickly. Anyways looked it up on the net right away to see what to try, and I came across a post stating to try any type of heat, hot water bottle etc... Anyways didn't have any of those so I quickly grabbed the blow drier, set it on high and had it as close to the wrist as I could stand the heat. Well within 2 minutes of blow drying the pain and itch subsided, so I quit blowdrying, and within 10 minutes the blisters were almost 100% gone. They say have something with as much heat as you can handle. Hopefully you don't ever have to use this trick, but thought it might be useful info to share :biggrin: .

Good to hear your ok. I handle my zoas with my bare hands! I should learn from your experience and buy a pair of gloves.

er... makes me not wanna get any zoas... -_-

Good to hear your ok.....must have been scary......your experience should be re-posted here.... http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=47571

OK WTF???....Seriously WTF???.....It happened again last night since this last time this happened I have done 2 water changes no problems. Did a water change last night before I did it I blew any loose stuff off the rocks and took a kitchen brush and scraped off about 10 brown zoas that popped up in different parts of the tank. Did a 10% water change. About 2 hrs later the wife and I get hit with these sneezing fits and from sneezing so much our throats got a little sore. Went to bed about midnight, couldn't sleep sneezing coughing tight chest got up took a bunch of meds sat down watched some TV. Then about 0200 the dog started gasping and whimpering went for a walk she seems fine got back in the house 10mins started again went out side again this time she wouldn't walk. Now the wife is up her chest is tight. We go for a drive to get some air dog gets worse end up at the emergency vet at 0330. Explain to the vet I think my SW tank gave off some gas or bacteria after stirring it up, he said he never heard of it but didn't dismiss it. Gave the dog some IV to open her airways and a sedative said she wasn't is any distress and alert to what was going on so we were free to go home. Got home 0445 now the wife is starting to get the shakes going got a bunch of water and meds in her and got to sleep till 0830. Checked on the tank to find white water and 2/3's of the coral dead about 200 dead bristle worms hanging out of the rocks. Then opened all the windows and got out of the house. Went to work got a full face mask with organic/inorganic filters vacuumed it out moved the rocks looking for a Yellow tang and a mandarin no luck, other fish seem fine and did a 50% water change. Wife is fine today dog is defiantly not herself and won't eat unless you hand feed it to her but she is eating, my throat is killing me my chest is plugged and coughing up and rainbow of colors.

Does anyone know what exactly it could be? Gas? Bacteria? Even the term or name so I can tell a doctor. The tank has been running non stop 6 years without any re-landscaping. I'm thinking old tank syndrome there is a lot of dust(detris) down in the rocks and recently last 2 months my phos is through the roof 5.0+ calcium 620-640??:question: (with 2 different test kits) no ammonia and .5 nitrates ph 8.3 mag 1290

I'm almost at the point of hiring someone to come and rip it all down, the risk is getting to be to much to have.....or maybe a bare bottom FO tank

Wow that's crazy I hope all you guys are ok and you get it figured out my best to you all:) if you ever need a hand let me know I'd be glad to help anyway I could:)

Sounds like something has a serious neurotoxin in there?? No idea what to suggest ... I mean, once, it's a freak occurence but this is 3 times now? I hate to say it but I think if it was me that tank would be done - sell or at least rehome the fish, and haul all the rock and substrate to the landfill. :neutral:

No idea what to suggest - good luck!

WHOA...Seriously Crazy! I'd be getting rid of the tank right quick too...end the suffering!

I second that... do give you credit for sticking it out and alot of time and money are at stake..But it's affecting everyone in the household and for me that would be too serious

Airborne toxin!!!??? now what!

You died from asthma...huh..

Anyone who wish to get rid of their paly/zoanthids, I will take them all. I have no problem handling, toutching and getting my finger and skin full of palytoxin slime. I guess I love zoanthids and they love me back?

6 Years is alot of time for all kinds of stuff to build up.

Have you ever taken the rocks out and cleaned them out?

Time to call in the Big Guns Wet Web Media.com
 

Well, I'm still up and it's late.... I still believe it's a toxin but not sure what the source is. You might take this to a site called WetWebMedia.com It's run by Bob Fenner and Anthony Calfo among many very qualified folks.... Here's a link: http://wetwebmedia.com/index.html

Just follow the rules for submitting questions...like good spelling/language etc... they are more formal than us; but, well worth getting to know.

They've helped me when I first started up.

Also, you should know some people are more sensitive/predisposed to toxins than others for a myriad of reasons: diet, heredity and those "unknown" factors. I've learned I cannot touch stressed paly's of any sort without serious palpitations, breathing trouble and tightness in chest.

The last thing you want is to induce a heart event. I hope the people at this site can help.

Please avoid the tank until you know more.

Bunny

In deed, some people will die when stung by a wasp or a bee and I feel only a short lived pain.

Some people will die if they ingest a slight bit if peanut butter...wich is yummy stuff to others.

When I bought my tube anemone the store owner told me that some people had their hand went numb after toutching or being toutched by the anemone. I toutch mine all the time when I clean the glass and don't feel a thing or any numbness.

I would sell off those zoas! Also let the buyer pull them from the tank and bag them as part of the sale. Honestly this hobby is for enjoyment and from the sounds of your expeniece its life threatening. Glad you and your dog are ok but you need to do something quick. :cry:

Murry,

About three years ago I came over to your place and got a rock full of those ugly zoos you are talking about(brown and pretty big heads right). I put it in my 10 gallon and they were letting off the slime. Next morning when I woke up same symptoms as you mentioned in your tank. Fish dead, bristle worms all hanging out of rocks and dead, large feather duster worm dead, inverts all dead, hairy hitchiker crab I was trying to catch for a few weeks dead, pretty much everything except for the slimy zoos.

It is definately the zoos that did it. In a larger system I am sure it wouldnt have happened but I didnt think and put 30 or so of those zoos in my 10 gallon.

Maybe they all reacted at once for some reason in your tank and released the slime.

I would scrap the idea of reselling them to someone. I hope things go well for you.

Yeah after reading that they did the same in another tank I now agree that garbage might be the best solution :sad:

Wow, I hope you all are ok.

My very first coral was a large rock plastered in Zoanthids.

I had no idea at that time that they contained one of the deadliest natural toxins in the world. I moved them around and around in the tank, covering my bare hands in the slime.

I never developed any symptoms and am damm lucky I did not.

I now rarely touch them but when I do I first check for any cuts on my hands.

After reading this thread today I'm gonna go get those long gloves.

Got this off wiki ( I know its not always accurate) but still scary...

"His zoanthid was found to contain 2-3 milligram of palytoxin per gram.[9] For comparison, the intravenous LD50 dose of palytoxin for a grown man is less than 8 microgram. Thus each gram of the offending zoanthid contained enough venom to kill at least 125 grown men."

It's definitly not the zoanthids that killed all your fishes and CUC. It must have been something else. Probably one fish died and produced ammonia that killed the rest. It happens all the time without zoanthids and if you had fishes in a 10 gallons tank, that was calling for trouble from day one.

Dunno how many fish you had in there. My frag tank is 20 gallons and I had a mandarin in there for 4 months without any problem, then I had a damsel and no problem either. I put all sort of zoa and paly in there and they slime a lot after I frag them but never killed anything and never noticed the slightest thing wrong.

that was not luck. Zoanthids were never found to carry the palytoxin. Read coral magasine as they have a good article on zoanthids.

Only a few species of palythoas and propalythoas may carry the toxin, and especialy a rare one from Hawaii that was used to poison arrows.

That's what I was under the impression of also, I have over 100 species of zoas and usually go glove-less when handling (Fragging is a different story, that being said you should always exercise caution when handling both for you and your zoas health). I have never experienced anything like that from the tank but we are harboring complete ecosystems so you never know what's growing.

I'm on board with Tony, might be time to purge the tank if it's causing harm to the whole house hold. Wish you the best!

You're making my head hurt.

Order Zoanthidea
Suborder Brachycnemina
Family Zoanthidae
Genus Zoanthus, Palythoa, Protopalythoa...


"It has long been known that zoanthids such as Zoanthus and Palythoa contain toxic chemicals...." The Reef Aquarium Vol 2 by Delbeek and Sprung pg 70

All Cnidocyte's contain toxin, and all species from the order Zoanthidea belong to the class anthozoa so they have Cnidocytes.

There for all corals contain toxic chemicals.

As much as I empathize for murm I don't think all of this Palytoxin finger pointing is order. There are tones of things that could make you sick from the tank, palytoxin is only one of them.

Maybe you could get some Sundial snails to eat the Zoas? My Filefish also loved to eat Zoas. Seems like a waste to scrap a bunch of rock when you could potentially clean it up. If you're going to scrap it, I would happily take it off your hands to try to fix it up.

It was two tiny clowns and they were ok for the entire time 3-4 months. Then the day the zoos go in everything is dead overnight. No symptoms before that so I know for sure it was the zoos.

Well that's the thing, you don,t know for sure. You may have introduced a bacteria, or a parasite that killed your fish and that polluted the water. There could have been some heavy metal in the water in wich the zoa was in. If it was a zoanthid, and not a palythoas, it is very unlikely it was palytoxine as they were never found to carry it.

Especialy clown fish are very resistant to toxin. One of my friend had one of her anemone stuck in a powerhead and released toxins in the tank. Everything died overnight except her clownfish and invertebrates. The anemone survived.

toxin maybe but not palytoxin.

Coral magazine, volume 7, november 2010:

"Zoanthus spp. haven't yet been confirmed to contain this toxin."

You and your dog are very lucky dudes. Definitely do not see as fortunate endings in our emerg department. Appreciate you sharing this, because being new to the tanks I didn't even know there were any corals that were poisonous enough to cause THAT much harm. Thanks for this thread-a good heads up.

"Palytoxin acts by changing the electrical properties of the Na-K pump and causes depolarization in heart, skeletal and smooth muscle cells and nerves resulting in paralysis and eventually death (Seyama, 1991). Gliebs et al. (1995) found this toxic substance in many of the Caribbean species of Zoanthus and Palythoa but the levels were highly variable and did not appear to correlate with their reproductive cycle or with the amount of zooxanthellae." The Reef Aquarium Vol 2

Well a little good news all fish accounted for and alive except a yellow tang that was heathy and fine when the lights went out. tank water is still pretty white skimmer going wild empty the cup about every 9-12 hrs. Still smells like death in the house.

Set up a quick 33G today moved the few remaining corals and a couple rocks and 1 clown that that kept swimming in front of the return pump nozzle I assume trying to get cleaner water. File fish, coral beauty, mandarin, and 3 clowns all ok crusing around and eating so right now I will leave them all. Next saturday is the big day I am kicking everyone out and going to rip down the tank for a complete rebuild dump the sand and kill off the rock. It will get rebuilt into a FO tank the wife always liked the non reef safe fish whenever we go to the LFS. Then I think I will build another nano I had good luck with nano's all SPS except for some acans and plates for the sand

Thanks for everyones encouraging words on this but right now I think it's the best way rather than playing russian roulette trying to find the problem.

These are the zoas I'm talking about the heads are the size of a dime and they stretch real long even 6" under MH lights and a produce alot of slime, a fist size rock of them will 1/2 fill a sandwich bag of slime :eek:....and they are zoas not paly's they all grow on a interconnected mat not individual like palys....I seen them sometime stay real short and almost get a silver/white tinge to them


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-a...26552_4393.jpg

Thanks to cranky when wet for the link lots of info here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/zoanthidcompfaqs.htm
Here is what happend to another guy

Unreal! glad that guy turned out ok in the end. A great lesson learned on my end. Wouldn't have known any of this was possible without this thread Great info.