Gfci ......
 

Okay not trying to be a smart arse, know it all blow hard jerk by I need to ask if anyone has "personally known" anyone that died from an accidental aquarium electrocution. Not heard about or knew a guy, but either went to a funeral or at least was only one person removed from the deceased. I realize the obvious risks but wonder what the "true" likely hood of it happening to me. My chances are higher than most as I don't shut power down or use GFCI'S. The way I see it is unless it happens as my arm is fully submerged the risk is minimal. If there was a problem existing and I went to put my hand in a quick "how do you do" is all I would get. No expert but my wife always seems to stay a fair distance away when I'm do tamk maintanence........worry or something more sinister???

Didn't you see the 1000 ways to die about this :lol:?

I'll put ya down as a no ..... :biggrin: I do look both ways when I cross the street.

nope
but i still feel uncomfortable with plugging something into the wall that goes into the water of my tank. From day 1 of my life ive been told that was bad and yet i do that everyday now.

makes me think, what else have i been lied to about? Is the sky really not blue?

Could play a big game of know anyone that died from... but if a relatively cheap device is available to limit or eliminate the risk of electrocution, I'd say why take a chance and kick over the 10 bucks.

Good point, wise advise.

I've been shocked and I know a few other who have as well. I also know of 5 local aquarium caused fires that could have been prevented with GFCIs... the most recent one was this week at our LFS.

How abou this:

I was hooking up a reactor to the back of my old 28G Nano, well I hooked it all up except didn't hook up the return. I don't know why, but dummy me... I turned on the pump and started pumping salt water all over my feet, onto the floor and onto my power/controller bar... Well sparks flew, and I got out of the water real fast, unplugged the power bar but it was too late. I fried the $60 bar that fast, if my feet were in the water, I probably would of had a jolt of a lifetime or more. :cry:

So I run 2 GFCI's now for that reason... Another reason also:

I was trying to put electronic ballasts onto my old fixture that had magnetic ones... Well the GFCI kept tripping, so I thought that maybe I had too much on the line now, so I got an extension and plugged it in somewhere else. Well When I plugged the electronic ballast into the fixture and then to the wall, I had a small nuclear explosion and blew the left side of my light...

Again, the GFCI was indicating a problem... So I listen to them when they don't want to stay active.

I hope this helps, and for 30 bucks or so, it is well worth it

Lastly, do you want to burn your home down, I have seen pic's of such a thing.

You can put me down as a no for your original question, but I do use them. Here's a reason to consider using them though, building code (at least in Alberta) states that any outlet within 1.5m of water needs to be GFCI protected. If you have an electrical fire in your house (regardless of whether the aquarium caused it or not), and the investigator finds that you have code violations, it's likely that they'll void your insurance and you'll be out big bucks... It's been my experience that insurance finds any way they can to not pay what they owe you :wink:

And does anyone one have first hand experience with this? Asked a Fire Dept guy that was involved in investigations about similar (basement renos without a permit), he never heard about someone being declined.

ok so I don't know any person that died, from not having GFIs on there tank, but I do know a few expensive fish that have dies from not having it and I saw a post from one of our members about there light falling into the tank and staying energized which cooked a bunch of there corals and a few of there fish.

Steve

OK, how about this one.

I finish cleaning my external return pump. I notice a funny sound after I turn it back on. I poke my nose until its two inches away from the pump and start tapping at the impeller cover when all of a sudden - pssssssshhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!

I get a face full of water and start flailing around like a decapitated chicken trying to stop the water. I instinctively reach around to the power bars to turn off the pump. I finally do so after a lot of groping. It's only then do I realize that I am in a very large puddle of saltwater surrounded by a rat's nest of electrical wiring and appliances. The power bars are soaked, I am soaked, everything is soaked. Then I begin to notice the silence. Everything's off. Why? Because the GFCI has tripped exactly as it was supposed to.

The impeller cover wasn't properly seated so when I tapped at it, it gave way.

I'm not dead, but there's a chance I wouldn't be typing this had it not been for that $10 GFCI outlet.

Im pretty sure a GFI or Ci won't do much to prevent fire. The detect a ground fault and then interrupt the the hot and neutral. A fuse would however prevent a fire, not the GFI.

I would disagree with that, if you saw my powerbar after the aftermath, it was black from sparking and flame... It can happen.

If a GFI trips before anything can happen, then voila it DOES prevent a possible fire.

for the cost of themn (they are cheap), don't take the chance!

I'm am going to strongly disagree with you. I am also going to strongly disagree with the idea that Gfi's can and will prevent fire. It's a false sense of security. They are not capable of detecting an arc ( fire causing electrical condition ) the are only capable of detecting an inaproprriate ground location Ie me you and out tank kitchen sink etc. I use them on my aquarium to prevent electricition. Spraying water on a gfi will not turn the circuit off until that same circuit is grounded incorrectly, which will end up being the moment you touch it or a common conductor grounds it out. Electrical fires are caused by heat, not water more specifically a ground. ( which is all a gfi has been designed to look for ) look into a afci they are out there too.

+1

GFI will prevent shocks only. arc fault or your breaker will prevent fires.

Steve

Well we are all entitled to our opinions. So I will respect yours... but what happened to me, tells me a different story, before I had the GFI. Then please explain all the burnt/melted plastic and black burnt stuff on my power bar after my incident (this would indicate heat in my opinion). I would like to know your explanation. I don't claim to be an electrician.

I do agree, GFI means ground fault interrupter... I think more is being read into what I am saying, but anything can happen before it trips! And if you don't have one, well then what I explained prior can happen.

So in regards to false sense of security, I think it is just an extra measure, it can't hurt. In the grande scheme of things, it is a small investment for this "small sense of security".

I have 2 of them and glad I do.

I think you missed the point,

GFI = GOOD

AFCI or FUSE = GOOD

Using both = DOUBLE GOOD

Not knocking a GFCI I think the are a necessity. Anyone not having one should think about getting one. While you are doing the GFI, look into fusing your system somehow. Claiming they will prevent fire is a false sense of security, A GFI will prevent unwanted shock and electrocution, seeing as that is all they were designed to do. ( In a situation where a fault in grounding is present )

There are any number of reasons why your power-strip is charred, not having a surge protector, circuit overloading, missing internal circuit breaker, power strip daisy chaining, plugging addition items into the duplex outlet, repeated moisture damage, to name a few. In any event all of the things listed will go unnoticed by the GFI, they are only there for ground faults. Please do not attempt to inform people otherwise, your logic is flawed. Its not a matter of opinion, its a static right/wrong.

Don't mean to come off harsh. Just happens that way.

I've personally had it happen as well were I've splashed a powerbar that was not plugged into a GFI outlet and watched it crackle and smoke before I shut it off. I have then had it happen again after I had installed the GFI outlets and they shut off immediately before anything else could happen. Even if stopping fires is not what they are intended to do you have to admit it can happen.

These are the 5 cases I mentioned to the best of my knowledge.
1. Water ran down a cord to the electrical socket behind the tank. Fire originates at electrical socket. The fire does enough damage to kill everything in the tank.
2. Previously overloaded timer presently being used to turn a 150W MH on and off spontaneously catches fire. The fire leaves some black scorch marks around the timer.
3. A powerbar sitting on the floor behind a tank subjected to a lot moisture and corrosion catches fire and leaves black scorch marks on the wall behind the tank.
4. The ballast blows (why? no one knows...) in a regular fluorescent light fixture above a tank. The fire does significant damage to the basement of the house, the aquarium glass explodes onto the floor.
5. Another regular florescent fixture hanging over a tank begins to smoke (moisture, corrosion, spray? I dont know). The smoke is significant and everything in the tank dies.

Based on this little information could none of these have been prevented with GFIs? In at least 3 of the 5 cases it was a combination of electricity+water=fire. If a GFI trips when electricity and water meet is it not conceivable that they would prevent a fire?

AFCI cant run everything though, as it wont fire halides.

Thats the common misconception regarding GFIs its not the water that trips them, its the ground or lack there of. A GFI will only trip when the power moving from the receptacle to the object being powered does not match what is moving back into the receptacle, from said object. That may be just getting wet or that may mean it getting wet while you are holding it or any other number of possibilities/situations. It does not sound like a grounding problem in any of those instances, sounds like an arcing problem from here.

an example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhW9V...eature=related

I didn't know that, I fused my blue wave 7 without issue. I will have to give the Afi a shot and see what happens. Im wondering if this would only be an issue with ballasts involving an integrated ignitor.

Induction loads such as a MH or motor starting can trip a AFCI.

As far as GFCI protecting us from fires. It will protect us from some fires.... It is pretty good at protecting from fires caused by water on recepticles.

No problemo, I will play nicely in your sand box. HEHE...

Thanks for the advice on the AFCI, this looks like something you add beside the normal breaker in your breaker box? If so, again thanks, I will research this more.

Could be. I dont recall which ballast I was running. I have not fired one on that line since, having put in a second aquarium only circuit. It does fine with t-5 bulbs though.

They are code in some places for bathrooms and bedrooms. All mine are on them. They replace the standard breakers. I have posted pics of them a couple times now. Latest is here,


http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...+storms&page=3

RR37 is correct, gfci prevents electrocution via ground fault, the rececptacle has a HOT terminal and a COMMON or NEUTRAL terminal which is connected to ground at your breaker panel, a ground fault occurs when the electrical path bypasses the COMMON terminal. e.g. through a faulty heater, into your water then through your body to a cement floor, and the floor doesn't have to be wet to make a good connection to ground. if you touch both terminals at the receptacle, you will get electrocuted because that is not a ground fault. also, if the electricity is arcing across a wet or faulty appliance and the path is not a ground fault then the receptacle will not trip and a fire will possibly be the result.

actualy if you stick your fingers on two of the tremanals it will go out as that is a ground fault. same as if it is submurged in water. theree is also a posibility it will go out by water being splashed on the power bar, now that I think about it. if enough water splashes the recepticle it will great a path to ground causing it to trip. if you didn't have a GFIC when this happened it would have to be enough water to cause a short circuit so your pannel breaker would trip.

Steve

I don't know much about the technical aspect of GFIC's but I do know that when I noticed my power head in my tank wasn't working I saw that the GFIC had been tripped. So I unplugged the cord, reset the GFIC and then plugged the cord back in again, and again it tripped the GFIC, the breaker the GFIC was on never tripped, it only tripped the GFIC.

When I finally looked back behind the tank and examined the power cord, much to my shock this is what I found:

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/i...p/P8060483.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/i...p/P8060485.jpg

All I have to say is thank God that the GFIC tripped, because the breaker it was on never did. Also very thankful that the only thing that got fried was the power cord and power head. I'm guessing water splashed out of the tank and onto the extension cord, causing a small electrical fire (which you can see the damage done to the cords in the above pic.'s) causing the GFIC to trip. Needless to say IMO if the GFIC hadn't tripped (or if I didn't have one) I'm guessing the damage would of been a lot worse!

It sounds like everyone in this thread thinks they know what they are talking about, but in reality it is a bunch of opinions without much education on a topic that is pretty important, and doesn't have room for opinions. Electricity doesn't run on opinion, it runs on predictable facts. Time for an electrician to chime in, and state the facts. ;)

no, thats not correct, if you put one finger on the hot terminal and one finger on the common terminal, electricity will flow back and forth through your body just like it will through a light bulb, toaster, heater, pump, or anything else you plug into it. if you touch the hot terminal with one finger and a copper water pipe with the other finger then electricity will flow through your body to the water pipe bypassing the common terminal of the gfi, causing it to trip, preventing unintentional electrocution.

that damage to the plug and power bar was caused by current arcing across the terminals, hot and common, it probably only took a few amps to cause that damage which is why the breaker didn't trip, fortunately some current also arced to the ground terminal on your power bar, causing current to bypass the common terminal on your gfi causing it to trip. that is why it is so important to not get water on your electrical circuits.

Might be a good idea at this point to review the OP's original questions/intent for this thread. There are a pile of threads regarding GFCI devices on this and other forums and much of the information presented here has been rehashed ad infinitum. I'm sure we can all search the net for more specific info on how GFCIs work, their application, etc.

No, I do not know anyone personally who has died from accidental aquarium electrocution, nor have I been to such a funeral. Seems like the OP is willing to deal with the risk involved by not using GFCI devices for his aquarium equipment whereas his wife is a little more cautious. Fine, we all take risks daily as soon as we drag our butts out of bed.

The electrical code is designed to standardize installations and provide the best level of safety using the technology available at the time. If you have an older home, you are under no obligation to bring it up to current code requirements, your call, you live with the risks of not doing so. My place was built in the late '50s early ' 60s and I've been doing a few wiring upgrades including a new breaker panel with AFCI & GFCI circuit breakers. Some of the stuff I've found behind the walls and in the older boxes is scary. By rights my place probably should have burned down by now, but somehow, it hasn't. I only have a few wire runs left to replace and I need to get on that based on some of the stuff I've come across. The code is updated periodically and GFCI/AFCI devices are relatively new on the scene. They can be a costly upgrade as well depending on how you go about it. If you're building new, you don't have much choice, the inspector will make sure it's up to code.

Here is an excerpt from the B.C. Book 1 edition of the "Electrical Code Simplified - Residential" published by PS Knight. There is a newer edition out there, but I'm fairly certain the GFCI requirements will be similar if not identical and other provinces will also be much the same.

(4) G.F.C.I Protected Plug Circuits Required - The rules require separate G.F.I. protection for the following:

A All plug outlets - within 118 in. (3 m) of a bathtub or shower stall, (except washing machine and dryer plugs in a combined bath and laundry room), Rule 26-700(11); and

B All plug outlets - within 118 in. (3 m) of a wash basin, (except washing machine and dryer plugs in a combined bath and laundry room), Rule 26-700(11); and

C All carport plugs - See explanation below, under "Carport only Plug Outlets".

D All outdoor plugs - which are ON the outside of a single family dwelling or an attached garage and which are within 98.5 in. (2.5 m) of grade, Rule 26-714(b).

Notice there appears to be no rule regarding aquariums specifically. But does it make common sense that your level of safety around an aquarium may be elevated through the use of a GFCI device? More than likely and all my equipment is so protected. Will you die if you don't install or retrofit a GFCI device? Beats me, I play lotto 649 and haven't won more than about $80 in countless years of playing. 99% of folks not using GFCI protection will likely never have a problem, heck, we lived without them since Ben Franklin flew his kite in the lightning storm. It would be interesting to see some statistics on known cases of electrocution and their causes. Even GFCIs can be faulty, so no absolute guarantees. It all boils down to your own comfort level with regard to electricity near water, or in our case, submerged in water... heaters, power heads, pumps.

Already tried stating the facts, GFI's only protect against electrocutions involving a ground fault. (Which is why I used them ) Anything else that can/will/may happen is circumstantial at best. Ergo, claiming that a house would not have burned down had said person(s) installed a GFI is absurd.

but depending on what caused it, it could have prevented it. I don't thing anyone has said absolutly it wouldn't have happend with a gfi, but rather it might not have happened. depending on how it actualy started. a GFIC can protect a ground fault which could cause a fire.

Steve

A GROUND FAULT WILL NOT CAUSE A FIRE !

Its the arcing that causes fires...

Its wonderful that its absurd that my house didn't burn down. :biggrin:

your putting up the absolutly worst case senario which in 99.99999% of the cases won't happen. some of that power will flow through you and be grounded so it isn't all going to go back to the common line. the gfic will detect a differance in flow and trip, preventing you from getting a shock. you don't need to touch a copper pipe. think back to when your a kid and you stuck a knife into an outlet and got a hell of a shock, I wasn't touching anything else except the carpet. if we were totaly isolated from ground then we wouldn't even get a shock.

Steve

ok.. look at it this way can a short cause a fire?

Steve

Ignorance is bliss. :biggrin:


I don't need to change the timing belt on my car because I change the oil every 4900K. Give your head a shake, thats comparable to the logic that people are using to defend the idea that a GFI can prevent fire. Anyone who has had a GFI prevent what they think would have been a fire is clearly displaying how unfamiliar they are with electricity period.