SPS Growth Puzzle
 

So 2 + years into my tank, which is using most of the equipment from my old setup, my SPS have barely grown at all. Colors are nice, and I have polyp extension, but no growth. Some pieces have done nothing but encrust ( a lot!!). The best growth I've had is about 2 to 4 inches on some millies (in 2 years) and some pieces, nothing at all.
I'm all out of ideas, and at this point in the economy selling it seems useless, so I'm soliciting any and all ideas on what might be the problem.

Only thing I havent' done is replace the rock, which might be next. All corals are healthy, clams are good and growing, LPS doing well. I've treated for red bugs and inspected under a scope for any other pests. Temp is about 78-79, 2 x 400w at 7 hours/day. Water changes every month, sometimes use zeo, sometimes slack off, no diff either way. Ca was 390 last test, alk about 9. Don't usually check anything else, but never have. Run a big ER skimmer, tried a filter sock, and no sock, no diff again. I have a remote sump with flex PVC returning from basement, this is a difference from my old system that did well.
No sand in tank, lots of flow. Used Zeo salt for last year, switched back to IO for next water change.
Tank is 90g, sump is 125, total water volume 140g.

This is a big change from my previous 10 years of SPS keeping, where I had trouble keeping up with trimming frags out..

Anyone have any thoughts on what I might try next?

What type of bulbs are you using (Manufacturer)? Are they 10K, 14K or 20K?

I find Ushio and Geissman bulbs to be the best, and I use 10K for highest/optimal growth.

what kind of lighting? up your water changes and bring your calcium and mag up. I find growth accelerates for me when my cal is 440ppm and my mag is 1400ppm. Also feeding helps so much i terms of growth but sometimes can be detremental to the color of the corals because of the increased nutrients.

Bulbs are AquaConnect 14k, one blew yesterday and I'll be switching to Radium, which I used for years and liked. The tank is a shallow 90, so the reduced output of the radiums should still be sufficient.

Lighting above. I've found that anything over 380 for Ca is fine, as long as it's maintained. I use a big a$$ Ca reactor that keeps it about 400. I don't worry about Mg, but did test it a couple of times and it was 1400ish. My previous setup used IO and no supplements other than reactor.
I never found feeding to help or hinder, other than brown out the corals if I over did it. I can see feeding helping a bit, but this I think is more serious. For example, I have a frag that I mounted 2 years ago, 2 inches long. It encrusted, and nothing since. That's just wrong :)

How far off are the lights? Maybe you're getting some photoinhibition going on?

it's not the lighting. I get 1-2 inches of growth in my sps per month. I can only tell you what works for me. Calcium above 420ppm and if i dont add mag often then growth stops. IO salt hasa very low mag and coraline algae just rapes the stuff. I feed with coral frenzy and it really does help for growth. I feed once a week maybe twice if i am bored. Its not going to be a one thing fix, its probably a mix a few things added together that is hampering growth.

What type of corals are we talking about? like are they maricultured corals or frags from someone else?

from my experience, i won't be buying to many maricultured corals anymore. mostly because of the fact that they just don't grow for me compared to frags from snappy, fishytime, wickedfrags and so on. All they did was encrust and maybe got an inche out of one in a year while my frags are now colony size on 6-8 months.

I thought that might be happening, so swapped in a set of used radiums for 2 months, no change.

I've got frags from Christy, Snappy, Denis, etc, all the same. And not species specific. My birdsnest has only grown slightly, where compared to the same coral in a previous tank it grew like crazy. My caps are not too bad, some growth, but not what should be for 2 years. Even digitata is slow growing.

Come on Brad... Warez da Photos Man.

Seriously, I can't stand to even take pics!! I posted one last year, it's still the same :)

I'm close to tearing down, cleaning everything, getting new rock and undertank sump and then re-add my frags. Some are not doing too terrible, but compared to what I used to get, it's pretty sad...

What gets me is I'm doing all I used to do with the same equipment, just different tank/sump and plumbing. This makes me think maybe contamination?? I dunno, it's frustrating...

Brad
Interestingly enough I have been reading alot about coral growth etc lately due to my own coral issues. Growth is directly related to food and not light. Light will keep them alive but they wont grow much. Food is where they get all of their extra energy from that allows them to grow. The most important food item seems to be zooplankton and without a sandbed you would have much less of it in your tank. Without a sandbed tho you should be able to feed the hell out of your tank without running into nutrient issues.
I dont know what to suggest for food for you, I havnt got that far yet :)

I would suggest to raise you calcium (if your Mag remains 1400 do that, but perhaps suppliment a little once a week to help. Tests can be off).
Also use something like CoralVite and Coral Accel once to twice a week about two to three hours after lights out or first thing in the morning when polyps extension on your sps should be at it full extent.

When I started doing this with my SPS (and I use tapwater in my tank) I finally saw growth in my frags that had no growth for a year, not even encrusting. Now all my sps grow nicely.

While the food thing makes sense, somewhat, I've never fed and had up to 3 inches growth per month for years in my old tank (bare bottom). But, I'll try that and see what happens.
Keep it coming :)

sometimes corals will eat bacteria or fish waster or even things we can't see in the water column. Problem is we skim the **** out of tanks taking most of this away. Thats why things like coral frenzy help so much. +1 on the feeding all way but make sure you spot feed and dont over do it.

I know you really like the flow have you trying dialing down your flow at all? Also have you ever tried clipping a tip of a piece. I've seen really fast growth from areas that I have fraged. To the point that the fragged branch out grew a non-fraged branch

J

What you really need are some Powell River grade "A" red bugs



.....I have lots if you want some :razz:

Jason, yes, I've taken small tips off of colonies and mounted them, nothing at all. I haven't dialed back the flow, but it's not crazy like I used to use, just 2 smaller streams (6060) and about 500gph from return line, maybe.
I might try that too though, and maybe then I could add sand -lol

Marie, thanks, had my own, had to treat a couple of months ago.

How many fish? There have been a lot of people remarking that after getting more fish, their SPS growth took off. Maybe the food aimed at the coral isn't actually doing anything, but food from fish waste will?

Hey, have you considered raising your Ca? I heard that might do it :wink:

I had similar problems last year Brad and did end up swapping out most of the LR as you've alluded to. I noticed a burst of growth but then it dwindled down again. I later dropped my flow rate and found that lead to a burst of growth but wasn't sustained either. I've since moved and am dealing with typical "new tank" type symptoms including browning out and slowed growth.

Have you considered changing to LED lighting? I think that's what the cool kids are using these days. Sounds trendy and trendy is always good :wink:

Just my opinion but it is hard to believe that you do not need to ad Mg.Have you tried another test kit?

I don't know much about sps but I do know others that do. Wayne (fencer) tells me you have to have fish poo for good growth and Dez told me that he dumps cups of Mg. in his tank per week and we all know his sps grow like crazy. So make sure you have some fish and start a Mg. IV :noidea: Might help.

Like i said previously mag is very important and often overlooked!

Food from fish waste?? ain't that basicanly nitrates at the end? I thought nitrates was actualy preventing sps from growing?? My bioload is extremely low with only 2 mandarins fish in a 75 gallons and I still see great growth in my sps. NO need to add more fish.

I feed coral frenzy and ReefRoids and my sps grow like crazy. I could swear I see new growth each day on one of them. I do feed a lot though (each day) because I also have filter feeders, but I have no nitrates and phosphates.

I would suggest you to try reefroids and coral frenzy and also if you can get the zeovit amino acids and coral vitalizer you will probably see some major improvement.

Your calcium is low as many other people have mentioned here.

That is a consideration, I have very few fish. I think I have a school of damsels in the sump, but I have to empty it to find out. I'm also skimpy on food, so I'll try feeding the fish more.

Nah, you know me Andrew, MH all the way!!

My stance on Mg comes from 8 years running a tank where the acros grew too fast. I never added anything, and nobody I know did either. The whole Mg trend has been the last couple of years, and while it may not be bad, it's never been needed before. That being said, I've had it tested several times and it's always near 1400.

I'll dig up an old photo to show what I used to get, doing the same thing I do now...

Here is an old pic of my last setup, this is the type of growth I got in 2 years. Not anything like I see now. And really not doing anything different, feeding, Mg, etc...

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d...f/fulljune.jpg

That looks great! Do you think the sand bed had something to do with it or the city has added something to the water supply?

Actually corals do need a certain amount of nitrates for their growth and they will even use some phosphates but fish poo isn't just nitrates it is a food source for many organisms in your tank


My calcium is chronically low, around 360 and occasionally down to 320-340 and I have fantastic growth so I don't think that's it (although I do notice things don't look quite right when the cal is down at 320)

I've noticed my mg drops a lot in just a week. like 100ppm. I add more of the brs mg than the other 2 (volume). Best of luck hope you sort it out your tank was a beauty.

I have 36 fish in a 150 gallon display :redface: They all get along and my sps grow well..... maybe the fish poop is good. I try to feed about 4 times a day.

Ya, my Ca is good, I've always kept it around 390 -410. Anything over 360-370 is fine in a stable system, the advantage of having at 420 or higher is just as a buffer zone incase of a spike downwards.

I could probably feed the fish more, but again, I don't think that's a major contributor. I recall one member that used to come here had one of the nicest tanks ever, and he almost never fed his 3 or so fish. No supplements for the corals either....

I remember those pics Brad. It was an outstanding sps tank for sure and obvious you knew what you were doing. I for sure have no answer, as I cant even keep them alive anymore. So my hats of to those that can.

I cant see older rock holding back growth, esp. with the use of gfo or whatever the heck new fangled product we use now.

This is an interesting thread.
1. Lighting-intensity is important - related to PAR especially when lighting is 15000k or higher
2. Flow - I used to think high flow is important, but now I am of the opinion waveboxes are the type of high energy flow you want not the ones generated by powerheads (vortechs can also give you this type of wave)
3. Internal recirc - yes, the more dead spots you can eliminate the better -I was convinced by Dez's tank
4. Sandbeds - yes, as long as you have critters to sift it
5. Maturity of the tank-definitely yes - a year or more - balanced biotopes take that long if not longer
6. Fish poop(not alot required) - yes they provide food for the bottom chain feeders
7. Water Quality - yes, 10% change out, carbon etc
8. Ca/Mg - chronic low numbers are indicative of consumption in well established SPS tanks...That is why Dez has been known to unload dump trucks of additives in the tank
9. Ultralith or Zeo - work way better in balanced tanks and you don't have to have the full blown product line to use these products
10. pH/Alk - 7.8 / 8 dKH
11. Other supplements - amino acids yes, use other products if they give you peace of mind and they nuke your tank
12. Salt - find a salt you like - a very expensive salt does not equate to a better tank

Fencer, agreed, and all my parameters are there for success. While I would prefer a wavebox, my tank won't work with one so I'm stuck with Tunzes. However, I've always used them, and bigger ones, with great results. I've used both sand and barebottom, both equally well for growth.

My approach is to try and find what's different this time around. I use a different RO membrane, it's been a constant (prolly needs replacing now). I also have about 30' of flex pvc tubing, which I've never used. Sump is new to my system, maybe it had something in it?
Tank is new, but it was used and had a successful reef in it. All other equipment is my old (successful) stuff.
My photoperiod was reduced to 6 hours/day, I've increased it, but 6 hours of 400w should suffice. But I've increased it just in case.
I feed PE mysis and pellets, just like always.

I've used zeo and not used zeo (full system), with only an increase in color.
I use carbon, 1 cup/month
My default levels are good, and doing bi-weekly water changes should more than keep up with consumption.
I have to say that I have better colors now than I ever did in my old tanks, I'd just like to see it fill in a bit :)

Brad, you seem to have everything covered as far as I can see. Parameters are fine, no pests, sufficient lighting and flow. :noidea: The only thing left to look at IMO is the source water. Is it possible Victoria has changed something in the water supply?

Lance, I'm wondering if it's something with my RO unit. It is a new membrane that I've been using for the entire time. I'm going to swap it out, 'cause it's prolly time anyway :)

What do your TDS read? and if your not having algae issues then save your money and spend it on something else. :)