CUC dieing, some advice please, newbie on board
 

I have a rsm250. It has been up and running for 6 weeks. Finished cycling 2 weeks ago. It went through alot of brown algae followed by even larger amounts of green algae on most of the rocks and all over the glass.

Last week I was given advice from several different sources to add a cuc. Some said just add a few snails. Others suggested a mixture of criters up to 1 per gallon. (65 gal tank). I wanted to start slowly( as everything you read says "START SLOWLY") but against what I read I decided to put in half of the maximum. 12 snails(6 strawberry tophats and 6 trochus) and 20 hermit crabs ( 10 red legged and 10 blue legged). (I got worried about the amount of algae growing. Like a thick unmown lawn)

At first everything went well. I spent about 1.5 hours acclimating them with drips from my tank into the water they came in and included a heater set to 80 degs F. I then carefully placed the cuc in the tank. They immediately went to work. The snails were going thru the algae like they were starved.

The crabs looked like they were getting food as well. The crabs seemed to prefer being on the LR while the snails went everywhere. Each day the algae was being visably reduced. About day three I started to notice My first dead crab. I remembered that they need extra shells in the tank if they are molting, so went out and purchased several differnt sizes of shells. Each day since has seen fewer crabs, while the snails continue to eat the algae (all snails look healthy).

Today one week after adding the cuc there is almost no visable algae, all the snails are still hard at work. All 20 hermit crabs are dead.

Each day the crabs that were alive seemed content working to clean up the tank. The next day the ones that died, were just sitting in there shell not moving, after awhile the body parts (legs and pinchers) would just fall off in the water currents.(this took a day or two after they stopped moving).

I would like to continue to build my tank, I want a coral tank with a few fish, but don't feel thats wise until I figure out what caused the crabs to die.

In hind sight I suspect that there was not enough food in the tank to support the crabs unless they eat algae. But my suspicions are based on little to no knowledge.

If they starved, will my snails be next? as the tank has almost no algae. When the algae is gone do snails need food added. ( I don't have any fish yet so no excess fish food available)

tank conditions are as follows:

Salinity = 1.026
Temp = 81.5 F
pH = 8.1
NH3 = 0.0
NO2 = less than 0.1 or less
NO3 = less than 5.0
Ca = 460
dKH = 9
PO4 = 0.25 or less

Did an 8 gal water change last wednesday.

lights 234 watts ho t5 mixed 12 on 12 off
moon lights on all night

carbon in with pump in back

skimmer not removing much skimmate. some not much.

If anyone has ideas as to whats happening in my tank, I would appreciate your experienced advice.


thanks

Unless your cycle did not complete it is likely your hermits died of starvation.
Hermits are predators, they eat all the tiny critters that coral and small fish eat so they are never a good idea. Keep one or two and return the rest to the LFS.

Your snails will die of starvation as there is nothing in your tank to feed them. Keep 6 or so and return the remaining ones to the LFS.
If there is no algae in your tank soak some nori and place it on the bottom with a small rock to hold it down.

Remember to resist the urge to go out and stock your tank with fish. In a couple of weeks buy a fish (ask here for advice before you buy) and only place one fish per month in your tank.
A good reading source which you can buy at the LFS is Robert Fenner, the Conscientious Marine Aquarist.
A great online source is www.wetwebmedia.com

Good luck and thanks for posting.

Has the tank ever been treated with Copper?

there may have been something wrong with the crabs prior to putting them into your system. i would think that the crabs, if healthy to begin with, would have eaten the snails before starving.
just a thought

Naesco

thanks for your reply, it is hard to resist ( its like being in a Star Trek episode "Resistence is Futile")

This is not a joking matter though, unfortunately there are no crabs left to return. My lack of knowledge and advice from people needing to earn a buck has led to an early failure. The snails have done such a good job cleaning I will have to start feeding them. I think I will see if I can return 6 snails. Or how many do you think I should have in 65 gals?

I don't know what "nori" is. sorry. Where can I get some, I picked up some seaweed today that a LFS said the snails would eat ( he actually was the one LFS that told me to go with 6 snails only to start.) He seems like a very knowledable person, to bad I didn't follow his advice.

I will look at the resources you suggested.

I will for sure ask about fish here before I buy

thanks again for your time.

zoaElite

I have not treated the tank with copper, all hardware is new, i don't know if anything can come in on the live rock?

thanks for your input

donald

yes that was also the thought of a LFS I trust. He thought if they were weak to begin with there may have been a disease that took over. But his main thought also was that they starved. I have read that the crabs will kill snails for there shells. The snails I bought are alot bigger than the crabs. I don't know if that makes a difference.

I really didn't think that I would have been sold something (really an obvious NEWBIE) without being told that I may have to supplement the food supply. I would have happily bought food for them. I guess I chaulk this one up to lesson #1 GO SLOW AND TRUST YOUR SOURCE

Thanks for your input.

Hmmm, this is interesting. It doesn't make sense...unless we are missing some sort of pertinent information (that you may or may not realize lol). The hermits eat algae mainly, and should start killing snails if they are starving to death. As well, it should take longer than a week for the hermits to starve to death. If copper was the culprit it should kill the snails too, and probably be quicker than a week. My guess is that you may never know what killed them.

I agree that you should try to return 6-8 snails. While the tank is new you will not need very many critters to clean up. As you stock your tank, you will probably need to slowly add a few more critters here and there. A Fighting/Strawberry/Orange Lip Conch (sand sifting bivalve) would be a good candidate for your tank in 4-6 months when the sandbed has matured.

Agreed with Myka but to many people are supporting this 1 critter per gallon CUC rule and it's way over board.

IMO don't but hermits again they are not reef tank safe, now that your cycle is completed some blenny or goby and a few snails will work well for algae control.

I'm a little baffled about the crabs though as hermits are far from finicky. I was helping Colby @ elite clean out all of the old snail shells from his tanks and I missed 3-4 live hermits out of a whole pail, after rinsing with BOILING hot water a few times and letting it sit for 2 days I found live hermits chilling on the top.

Myka

Being new to the hobby, it is very likely I've missed something. I sure hope I didn't, but...

The hermits appeared to be eating what ever they could find. It seems though that the tank was cleaned up so fast that the amount of cleanup crew recommended was to high. Now I'm scrambling to make sure the remaining snails don't die.

The snails are cruising around the tank so fast, the crabs may not have been able to catch them.:smile:

The fighting conch sounds like a great addition.( in the future)

Thanks for your advice I will for suren take it slow from here on.

zoaElite

I guess the information I have been gathering is wrong. I was under the impression that crabs were reef safe. The LFS employee did know that I wanted a reef tank. I don't blame the employee of the LFS, he too has been misinformed. Unfortunately he was wrong not only about the numbers of CUC needed but also what criters were reef safe.

I'm glad I didn't add the 1 per gal. that the LFS employee and other sources recommended.

I do like gobys so maybe in the near future I'll be able to get one.

I think this forum will be a good source of information for future purchases.

Thats incredible that those hermits lived through that cleanup process. youch!!! boling hot water.

Thanks again

Ya, it is a shame that so many LFS will sell unsuitable critters to people (whether they are naive or not). Another shame is selling critters without asking questions about the tank to make sure the critter is a good match. Some people don't like the LFS people to ask questions, but I think it is important in the big picture (save the reefs rah rah rah lol).

Btw, hermits are kind of reef-safe. They can cause troubles, and many people either aren't aware or think their pro are better than their cons.

Crabs are opportunistic feed them enough they will be fine starve them they will eat your LPS, Zoe's what ever they need to stay alive. I think you got way to many clean up crew to start with. They staved to death. just cut it back to a few and maybe dump in a bit more food. It is a matter of finding a balance. I only have one crab and two snails in my 75.

We have only 2 hermi's and 3 snails and 2 cucumbers(formaly 1) in a 110g.
The promotion of heavy clueanup crews are overstated, thats what usually ends up in heart ach and frutrations. Plus an empty wallet.

Myka

I sure wish they would have asked me questions. Although they did sell me the tank, and knew it had just finished cycling, and that I wanted a recommendation on what should be the 1st new entry to the tank. I was definately naive, I trusted they knew what I should do next and I regret it.

On a positive note. I put in some seaweed this afternoon in case the snails were hungry. Just took a look at my tank and three hermits have appeared. They are barely moving, one is on the seaweed eating(yeahhhh)
The other two are getting closer very slowly. I tried to help one to get closer and that spooked him ( it made a weak attempt at finding a hiding spot),so I think I better leave them alone.

If any of them live I will keep a close eye on them to see if they leave my corals alone.

Marlin

this may sound, well like, newwwwbie but at this stage I can take it.:lol: What kind of food should I use, the LFS didn't say I should feed them, and I didn't ask. I have no fish so there is no excess food should I throw in some flake food, if I do throw in food won't that cause an ammonia spike?

thanks

Yes, definately hurts the wallet.
I saw all that algae and thought how will those little things eat all that stuff. Well now I know how much the snails can pack away.

i wouldd say hermits are reefsafe, with caution. if you have a heavy feed tank they do well most times and leave corals alone. they do cause trouble, turning everything over and make a mess.

your doing great. wait until you find the hitchhikers. i bet you will have crabs in your system--wait and see:mrgreen:

you posted that you were getting nitrite readings?.....what test kits are you using?

Hey Doug...nitrite isn't toxic in a marine environment even at super high levels. unless you're onto something else??

donald

thanks for the encouragement. Hitchhikers!!! Hope their friendly.:smile:

fishytime

sorry it took so long to reply. I'm kind of scrambling to get as much advice as I can and neglected to look here.

I bought the hagen master test kit. I have never liked the color charts on these things it seems that you ask two people what color match they see and more often than not you get two different answers.

I have been picking up some better testers like Aqua Test KH and Hanna phosphate checker.

What do you think about the hagen test kit? I just took some more tests
with the hagen kit.
NH3 = 0
NO2 = less than 0.1
NO3= less than 5
pH = 8.6 Yikes That seems high

The pH has been fluctuating alot between 8.1 and 8.6 everything looks happy.

I better get a better ph tester. any suggestions?

Myka

Back to the books for me. I thought NH3, NO2, and NO3 were all toxic. I thought short term memory was all I had left. Guess not.:smile: Oh well I'll keep reading and hopefully something will stick.