Raw Pet Food
 

My husband and I are looking into raw pet food diets for our cat and dog.

Our cat is overweight, we are currently feeding her Wellness, and although she likes it, she is not doing as well on it, as we had hoped. The vet is continually pushing their 'prescription' food and looking at the ingredient list makes me shudder. Not to mention, the cat has not really loved anything they've sent home with her.

Our dog is a Mini Schnauzer who is about a year and a half old. She is eating Now! and is doing fine on it but we are looking at more natural feeding options. We currently supplement her diet with raw marrow bones and fresh fruit and veggies.

I suggested to the vet we were researching raw diets and they freaked, telling me it is an awful idea and could make our pets very sick. I'm sure it could, but from the looks of it, if done properly has actually been very successful for many people.

Diana, I know from a previous thread, you are feeding a raw diet to your dogs; can you please suggest a couple of links to sites that have facts about it? Also, can you tell me the specifics of your dog's diets? How long have you had them on it?

Does anyone on here feed their cats a raw diet? This has been much harder to find info on than dogs and info or links would be appreciated.

Many Thanks, Robyn

Myka also feeds her dog raw food as well. :biggrin:

I'm not sure about cats, but we feed our boxer a raw diet, and I will never again feed a pet anything else in my life. It has done nothing but good things for our dog. Feeding raw worked better than any supplement or vitamin after he got surgery on a torn ACL.

Hopefully you can find some information for cats. Best of luck.

Raw is the only way to go, IMO. A bit more work, but well worth it. I think the only difference between dogs and cats, is cats need 100% protein. Dogs can have added veggies( I don't add any, but that's an argument for elsewhere:))
You have options of buying prepackaged products, from minced "stuff" to butcher blocks of meat, or ust feeding meat with bones. There are a lot of great sites on feeding raw.
Here's a good one to start with

http://www.rawlearning.com/

Thanks for the link Brad! I will check it out tonight.

Another question; for those of you that do feed raw, what do your vets say about it?

Mine seriously thought I was crazy when I mentioned we were considering it. They were very strongly against it.

Some vets are supportive, some not so much. It depends on their background and what they've been taught in canine nutrition class. One vet told me it was, bad, the next told me to cook the meat (really bad advice with bones in tact) and the last vet I talked to only had concerns about a clean cooking environment for raw feeders that might have kids and such. Many go on about puncture injuries, which are certainly possible, but none could actually claim to ever having seen one personally.
One of the sites details a lot about disspelling myths of raw feeding, and why vets, many whom have only had a few hours total education on canine nutrition, have the opinions they do.
Most people I associate with in my dog friend circle feed raw, and have been for years. These dogs are all in great shape, can chase sheep all damn day and still have energy to play some fetch after dinner. :) There are lots of benefits, some risks, to you and/or your dog, and doing lots of research will let you make a choice that is right for your animals.

Oh, found the myths link, give that one a read

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/

Check this link out. This lady knows her stuff.

www.chowfornow.ca

I'm another supporter of a raw food diet. We put our 10 week old puppy (black russian terrier) on it straight away when we got her and we have seen no ill effects from it. She is 6 months old now.
Feeding raw food is not as convenient as feeding dry kibble, but it seems like she drinks less water and has smaller poops than other dogs her size.
I'm really surprised at how strongly some vets can come down on a raw food diet. I don't buy their arguments/reasoning, especially after that melamine disaster a while ago.
It's raw meat, treat it as such. Maybe take a food safety handling course to educate yourself about it.

Mitch

I don't do raw as it just won't work for us. but the next best thing is some of the very high quality kibble. I feed my doggie Orijen regional red, and we are switching the cat over to Orijen's can food. very high proteen and no crap.

I have two vets, they make me laugh as one is on line with me about shots, feeding ect.. the other pushes there med-i-cal and all stages, puppy, adolesent, ect.. I just stopped mentioning what I feed when I have him as we had a 1/2 hour argument and he wasn't impressed when I told him he is recomending one of the worst foods on the market :mrgreen:

here is some info on the orijen

"ORIJEN 6 FISH CAT is formulated with a Biologically Appropriate ingredient ratio (70/30/0) of 70% meat, 30% fruit and vegetables (and 0% grain)—all slow-cooked at low temperatures to retain their natural goodness. "

and the ingreadiance

INGREDIENTS
Fresh deboned salmon, herring meal, salmon meal, russet potato, fresh deboned northern walleye, salmon oil, peas, potato starch, whitefish meal, sweet potato, fresh deboned Lake Whitefish, fresh deboned herring, natural fish flavors, fresh deboned lake trout, fresh deboned flounder, sun cured alfalfa, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, Saskatoon berries, black currants, psyllium, choline chloride, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, zinc proteinate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, iron proteinate, vitamin B6, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, folic acid, vitamin C, biotin.

Steve

Raw Pet Food
 

Hi! I feed both to my dogs, because of the cost of raw alone. Raw in a late afternoon and kibble(grain free) before bad time. Never mix two together.
You can find some links on my website.I been on this schedule for 5 years and my dogs don't have year infections anymore.(used to be chronic)
There eyes don't tear, coats are great and so on.

Old school vet freaking out - nothing new there.You probably will have to find a holistic vet, other wise everything happens to your dog or cat will be blamed on raw.
Dogs and cats diet is very much the same, just don't stick with same type of meat all the time. Many people forget it's a lot of different proteins out there, other then beef and chicken. Don't stress your self out for the raw not being a complete diet, as long as you have a variety over a week period, you are fine.

Good luck,
Natalia Koutsil
Larkspur Standard Poodles
www.larkspurpoodles.com

Hiya. Yes I do feed raw to my dogs (3 miniature pinschers). One gets only raw 100% because she has allergies. The other two will get at least one meal of raw a day and occasionally one meal of an extremely high quality kibble (EVO). We do this mainly for convenience and cost. Our cat also gets some raw and some EVO cat kibbles.

I personally do not prefer feeding kibbles but my fiance still has some troubles defrosting raw food daily (sigh).

As far as what raw foods we feed, it varies. We used to feed chicken but I've kind of leaned away from that because I just don't like feeding it. We rotate between unique and different protein sources. Buffalo, lamb, and venison. We don't usually do beef because of allergies. Mostly we purchase Nature's Variety for convenience. They have good percentages of meat, bone, offal, and veggies.

http://www.naturesvariety.com/rawDOG

Sometimes we will buy different brands of meats just for variety. :) They have been on raw for about a year and a half now.

Yeah and you can expect vets to have different reactions. Most of them get their nutritional training from pet food companies. The holistic vet I go to reccommends raw however wants to ensure the animals are getting proper amino acids, etc. We also got a little omega-boost additive that is probably mostly fish oil.

:)
Cheers!
-Diana

You know I tried the raw diet when I 1st got my shorthair and can honestly say I didnt say any difference between it and a high quality kibble other than the kibble is 99% easier to feed. I raised him on Acana (its made right here in AB) and recently switched him to Eukanuba after some flatulance issues with him. Now both him and my setter are on Euk and are doing awesome.

This dog took Best Of Breed 4 times in his short show carrier, beating the #4 GSP in canada multiple times as a 9-14 month old puppy. He also earned a Field Dog title and I am 1 pass away from an obedience title. Needless to say I am pretty happy with the results I seen from a good kibble.

I have now started supplementing kibble though with yogurt, or grease especially during the fall when he is hunting hard and is always getting bathed. Keeps his coat nice, shiny and his skin moist so there is no dandruf.

Raw (as in prey model) has a few benefits that I like. Crunching through bones is great for the teeth, no plaque build up. The in:out ratio is way higher (this is the ratio of food going in the sharp end vs: the food coming out the wagging end). Cleanup is a breeze, and if you forget, it just dries up and goes away.
Overall, coat and skin are in better shape, no doggy smell especially on one of my girls, and overall increased vigor.
Cost of Orijen kibble, even with a discount, is roughly $150/month. Raw costs me about $80/mo, so a huge benefit there. I do get a huge discount on chicken backs though, so not sure how price measures up for the average consumer.
Overall though, if one has the time for it, I think it's a great diet, and better than kibble can ever be. Kibble isn't bad, it just isn't as good, IMO

You want me to talk to her?? :)

haha. like when has you talking to her ever worked LOL

chicken back would be more expensive than the orijen kibble for me.. not by much.. unless I want to order 100lbs and then take some out to thaw every night.

what do you do for veggies? every raw diet I have read has veggies also.

Steve

I have been thinking of switching my 7 month old to raw because he has some allergies and my vet just keeps pushing Medi-cal. Forget it...its way over priced and I have heard its not great food. Of course he is pushing it though, he sells it!

We have a raw foods wholesaler who lives in my building and will sell to me at cost, so no real reason not to try it other than the defrosting. How long does this take and how is it done?

What about for cats? One of my cats seems to have some allergies as well but once again the vets only answer is to feed him medi-cal.

Thanks!

hehe, ya not great is an understatment. it is one of the worst foods out there from the ratings page. wanna have some fun.. tell that to your vet and watch him try explain his way out of it.

Steve

I don't think that vets should be selling food products in their practices. It gives a tacit endorsement, and I think it's a conflict of interest.
For me anyways, it takes away some of their credibility for feeding advice.
We feed our dog the prepared "dinner" raw diets, which comes mixed with vegetables, bone, muscle, and organ meat. Every now and then we will put some extra raw pumpkin for extra fibre.

Mitch

Medi-Cal is one of the worst foods out there.

Acana has a whole line of kibble geared for dogs with allergies. I really like to show people the Salmon and Sweet Potatoe when I hear they have a dog allergic to other foods.

The best thing to do is just read the ingredients list. If it has any grain, rice, potato, or other carbo filler then it is no good for dogs/cats. I always laugh at pet food commercials when they say "contains natural whole grains" and a pretty picture of wheat floats across the screen and make it seem like its such a good thing. Someone is doing a great marketing job when they can make you believe its good for your pets to eat!

But that is true of fast food commercials too...

-Diana

not nessasarly true.. dogs do need some carbs, unlike cats. the issue is which sources they are using for carbs. potatos, whole veggies, fruit, ect = ok, grain, rice, yeast, ect = not ok. also you have to look at the type of meat, by-products = garbage and then the amount of meat compared to other things.

the biggest problem is big companies like nestle, dare, ect are buying up the dog food companies to they can use there byproducts from making other things as filler in dog and cat food, so they save money two ways.

I will stick with champion foods, small alberta company that makes orijen, arcana, and one other line they do everything in house from making the food to packaging, and they source quality local ingreadiants. family run, and they feed it to there own pets.. doesn't hurt that it is concidered one of the best dog foods out there also..

Steve

Wow, thanks for all the feedback!!

I have a small update on our vet situation; Sophie, our Mini Schnauzer, went in for her annual exam on Tuesday. Our last vet left the clinic and moved to Victoria a few months ago.

Sophie is terrified of the vet since she got spayed last year and was shaking pretty badly. The first thing the new guy asked me when we go there (before I had even put her on the table) was; what do you feed her? That immediately got my back up. I told him, and he said we should be feeding MediCal; it would help her 'severe' anxiety and would be good for her teeth. - Are you kidding me?!!. I informed him that he was there to provide medical services for my animals and not to sell me dog food.

Apparently I also have a bad attitude about vaccinations, as I asked him to make sure that he was not about to give her the one she had a past reaction to and he got really offended and never actually gave her any vaccination. He said if I did not want his advice, we could take our animals elsewhere. So I took Sophie and walked out. The next morning I called and asked them for out pet's records.

I now have an appointment with a holistic vet, whom has had fantastic recommendations from several people in our community. He feeds raw and I'm really excited for our appointment next week.

I don't feed anything but meat. Every (prepared) diet i read about mentions using veggies (presumeably as filler), however dogs don't produce enough enzyme (amalayse, I believe) to digest it. And anytime the dogs take it upon themselves to munch on some grass, it comes out the same way it went in.
The whole "wolves eat stomach contents" argument does not adequately prove anything, as many reasearchers have witnessed that the contents are shaken away and discarded, and any that is consumed is simply secondary to eating the stomach itself. Also, the volume of said contents is insignificant at best.
I feed a big variety of meat (chicken, beef, deer, fish) with organ meats and an occasional egg.
No veggies at all.
Lots of people on both sides of this fence, but dogs, as demonstrated by their dental structure, are carnivores.

That's a whole 'nother thread :)

I'd love to but after the last visit, I am never going back. It has become very apparent that his solution to everything is either Medi-Cal or the pheromones he sells to calm cats/dogs down for around $100 each. My problem is not whether these products are useful or not but that he doesn't really do much thinking about the problem, just reverts back to food every time. Or when my cat had a blood shoot eye, he blamed the stress of a new dog and wanted me to buy these pheromones for $100...turned out the cat had some hair in his eye and once I removed it, his eye cleared up :)

ahh but the link you sent me to read about this stuff mentioned grasses, fruit and veggies as an important part of there diet, just not in large amounts. I know both my monsters eat grass like there is no tomorrow and if there are any fruits on the ground from the trees they are gone.

Steve

Its a tough call, since none of us are nutritionists specializing in canine and feline health. I would LOVE to talk to one one day and get the inside scoop on what they actually can and can't digest. I understand their digestive tract is too short to digest cellulose, but does that also mean they cannot absorb vitamins and minerals from some vegetables (read some, obviously it will do no good feeding them celery :neutral:). I wonder also if the veggies are added simply to aid in passing the food, to a similar effect that grass aids in it. The percentage of veggies in a lot of the premade raw diets is low enough that i doubt they are doing it as filler. But it also depends on the veggies themselves, because some are good but some are not. I agree though that it would make sense to feed dogs mostly (if not all) meat- which includes bone and organ meats.

But you know, as long as you are not feeding your dog Iams or Eukanuba (isnt it the same company?) or any of that shiznit, then you are doing your dog and the food industry in general a favor. Buy a good quality kibble or raw food, check the ingredients, (and as forementioned make sure its not rendered meats or meat byproducts) and feed your dog a variety.

We should ALL be aware of where our meat comes from. Modern society is treating its food animals like crap, and ultimately everyone's health will suffer from it. Where do you like swine flu and sars and all these viruses are originating? Animal farms. Buy local, organic, free range, wild, whatever you can. I have made the choice to stop consuming factory produced animal products... and I am really trying for my dogs as well.

-Diana

thats what made me decide on the Orijen, 70%proteen, 30%fruit and veg, 0% grains. they got a white paper on there site to explain why they canme up with this formula and the benifits, and rfeasons for picking the fruit and veg that they did. actualy an interesting read.

Steve

Hey,

Sorry I dont have time to read the thread, but here are some specs:

Some of the best dry foods you can feed your pets if you choose to use these, or keep them as a back-up for the raw (which is what we do):

Orijen, Acana, and Evo something(I think someone can fill that in)? Thats just what I Can remember off the top of my head but you CANNOT go wrong with them. I personally use Acana with my dog (started using it 4 years ago) and he is in amazing health.

In the last 2 years though we switched to Raw dog food (actually we prepare MOST of it at home, literally from scratch ingredients). But we do buy patties of lamb/bison/elk on occasion, and when we first started we used chicken and beef, now he gets mostly deer patties, with some bison/lamb on occasion, or else beef. We mix in items like heart, liver, and bones into the formual we grind up ourselves. The dog also needs some vegetable matter (un-cooked), this we do sometimes mix in but I like to make purees for him as an 'afternoon snack'. THey can also have yogurt(and other milk-products) and some grains, but only in small quantities. You'll be able to find a list of safe/good ingredients of all that stuff tons of places - or, buy a book on raw food. I've read a few, and they are loaded with info.

Raw food is the most natural way for your animals to aquire their nutrients - it is what their stomach will be able to process the easiest and most completely. Your dog/cat are 'domesticated', yes, but biologically, they are still wild animals. Most dry foods are processed, full of fillers and other crap as im sure you noticed. The enzymes in their digestive systems just dont deal with this stuff. Dogs/cats (moreso dogs) do need some veggie matter - ever notice your dog eating grass? berries off trees? My dog goes berry picking in the summer, and eats things like asparagus, alphafa, and grazing grasses. THey also ingest the stomach/intestinal contents of the animals they would naturally kill, = veggie matter. So it is important.

These are benefits associated with quality foods and raw, that i have also noticed in my own dog:
Switching to better quality dry foods and/or raw dog food: healthier coat, less fat/more muscle, less 'doggy' odour, happier animal (feeding time is tons of fun with raw, especially when he gets Raw Meaty Bones), lower vet bills, longer life-spans.

My dog started on Acana at 9 years old and is now 13, he smells less, has a nice coat, has tons of muscle, is still plenty active, and hes a BIG chocolate lab. The only thing is he is going deaf, but I hardly doubt that is a consequence of food-choice. The vet is very happy with him.

You may notice that many(most) people feeding raw, often have old dogs that are still in great health, and also have less medical complications. Its simply more natural, and healthier. You just have to ensure you get the right balance of ingredients, which is not too hard to do. And if you want to switch just to a better dry food, the results are similar, but again raw is best. It may be domestic, but in the end the animal is still 'wild'... its not like processed food is good for anyone anyways... its bad for people too, lol.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,

Chris


PS. - Your vet is on crack... he/she is getting payed to endorse whatever food they carry. Ever notice how a vet clinic often has one specific brand of poopy 'vet-specialty' food? Also, vets lose business if you pet is healthier - sick pets = vet money. They are not like the human healthcare system. If your vet does not support REAL quality dry foods or raw, find a new vet. Many vets will be welcome to these ideas, and you'll definetly go back to a vet who is encouraging you right? They know they wont lose business for encouraging the right pet-care.

If you want to be believed then be very careful about making statements like this
.....We had a labrador that lived to be nearly 18, was fed Dog Chow all her life and never went to the vet. I also have a shih-tzu that will be 16 in march, fed kibble all her life and the only vet bills I've had other then vaccinations is for teeth cleaning

I think this whole topic has to avoid "statements", as most of it is really just a pet owners preference.
Yes, many dogs that eat raw live longer, more active lives than kibble counterparts, but I'm sure there are many that don't. Diet is not the only factor in long healthy lives.
Also "stating" that veggies are important is simply an opinion. My opinion is that this isn't true, although feeding veggies probably isn't bad, so if you feel better feeding them, no harm done.
Some people insist that bones are whole, while others grind them up. To me, grinding removes one of the important benefits of bones. But again, it's purely preference.
Both sides of any portion of these issues has it's proponents and opponents.
Read all you can, talk to a variety of people that feed raw and then form your own opinion. The myths link I posted has a lot of good info, and disspells a lot of the heresay on this topic, although again, it's one websites' opinion.
Since most vets think feeding dogs raw is crazy, they are not a good source of info. As mentioned elsewhere, a lot of vets get their (minimal) training from the pet food suppliers, making it rather biased.
Canids have been eating raw for a lot of years before medi-cal was invented, and the species as a whole is doing pretty good, so there has to be something to the whole idea! :)

Yah they have been eating our table scraps for 10,000 years! :mrgreen:

I get this from a page I found on the differances between dogs and cats, even goes to say dogs doi have dual purpos teeth, although not as all purpose as ours, they are designed to cut grasses and other veggies, where the cats are designed for one purpose.. to hold and tear. also they do talk about the differances in digestive track, a dog while shorter than ours is much longer than a cats which means the cat is a true meatatarian, where the dog is almost there but can digest (although not completely) veggies and such. when they grind grains and throw them in food this makes them easily digestable which is why dogs can gain weight on foods with no meat. but there will be people that say dogs are total meatatarians like cats..

there was another interesting tidbit that re-enforces this is that cats are not thirst driven as in nature they get most of there water from fresh kills, dogs on the other hand are thirst driven which they beleive is a result of them eating more than just meat.

Steve

I groom approx. 80 dogs a month, more then a few are on raw food diets but I would be hard pressed to say which ones were if I hadn't been told ahead of time.... Any benefits are in the eye of the beholder

The one thing more then any other that contributes to a shiny, healthy coat is fresh air and exercise. No matter what diet they get, be it kibble, raw or vegetarian if a dog is stuck in the house all day/everyday, their hair gets greasy, smelly and dander builds up

Steve, as I said, if one is comfortable feeding veggies, no harm done. Maybe they get something, maybe the grass comes out stinky. For me, I choose not to feed veggies.

Marie, absolutely, there is no way you're going to recognize a raw fed dog by looking at it (maybe teeth might suggest it, but otherwise no). The value of such a diet is in the eye of the beholder, measured often as before/after comparisons. For me, I notice the difference in my dogs, therefore my choice is clear to me.
Again, it's an individual thing, and a choice each dog owner makes after researching the options.
We can compare this to our own lives. We can eat crappy processed foods, or we can eat healthy organic raw foods. Most people won't look at us and know our diet (unless our diet is LOTS of pizza), but we know how we feel from eating different diets. I feel better and can perform better eating clean wholesome unprocessed foods, and this is something I prefer to offer my dogs as well. Feeding good kibble isn't bad, or isn't going to kill them, but it's possible the dog will feel better with real food. I owe it to my dogs to pursue the optimum for them. It's just a lifestyle choice I make...

:lol: I am not just looking Brad, I am way more up close and personal with these dogs then their owners ever want to be. :lol:

I clean their yeasty ears, breath in the gases released from various orifices ( I won't even go into the liquids and solids that are also released) and see their teeth way closer then is sometimes comfortable....all this while the dog is on the same height as my nose

I'm not trying to be confrontational but there is no hard proof of the benefits

I used to have my dog on a raw diet (meat/bone/offal only, no veggies/fruits/grains). Although she's generally a pig when it comes to food of any sort, she was very picky when it came to raw. I found I couldn't get her to eat some of the stuff needed for proper balanced raw nutrition (like bone-in chicken and fish), so I switched her to Evo. She became very gassy on Evo (both the red meat and the chicken/turkey), even after 1 year of eating it. I switched to Orijen about a year ago I think, and have never been happier. Orijen seems to be a very popular food these days. I recommend it to anyone to at least try out for 6 months.

I also daily feed plain yogurt, Tripett green tripe, and Wild Salmon oil. I have always fed my dogs twice a day, and I have been considering replacing the evening meal with raw.

Never mix kibble with raw food as they are digested at different speeds. I believe raw is digested in 4 hours, where kibble takes 8 hours.

I'm not sure if it has been posted yet or not, but here is a link for those who are interested to see how each brand of dog food rates and why: www.dogfoodanalysis.com

No confrontation detected :)

I agree that there is no proof, and the results are not always clear. Sometimes it's possible that raw could be worse than a good kibble. I certainly am not trying to sell it as a better way, or that may dogs are any better than someone else's dogs.
For me, my dogs are involved in sports that require strength and stamina, and I believe you only get out what you put in. For me, raw is better. It's cleaner, non processed and doesn't contain anything I don't add.

As an example, if you meet me tomorrow, you won't be able to tell if I had good food today or bad. But I'm running a 10k tomorrow morning and I sure notice what type of fuel I take in. It's the same, I believe, for my dogs.
Sure some kibble these days are great products, and probably just as good for most dogs (Orijen comes to mind). In fact, I keep some handy just in case I need to feed it, such as when we're out of town at a tournament or trial. Much more convenient. But, as a staple diet, I prefer, for myself and my dogs, food as close to real as I can get.
Again, make no mistake, I fully support a good kibble, and would recommend it for the average person, but if someone asks, as this thread did, about raw, I will speak as an avid supporter, IF it's something a person is interested in.
And to be clear, I don't use pre-made formulas, I feed raw, whole food. Example - when salmon is on sale, I buy a bunch of them, freeze them for 24hr (for possible parasites), thaw and cut in half. Each dog gets half a salmon, alternating who gets heads or tails :)
The pup isn't big enough yet for whole fish, so she gets chicken wings.

For those that can't/don't want to consider raw, have a look at Orijen, great food. Myka posted a good link too, so if you feed kibble, check out how it rates!

Lol yes cause I clearly said its impossible to have dogs survive to old age and good health with kibble.... *roll eyes*