Do you believe equality is beneficial or detrimental to society?
 

I don't want to explain my motive behind this question as I'm worried it may skew the results. It is a private poll, we can't see how you vote.

So...do you believe equality is beneficial or detrimental to society?

Thats a loaded question.
Depending on how you look at it you could vote either way.

Always had discussion on this subject in many classes. Often starts with education then to jobs and authoritative positions.. but there's so much more to it. -.-

I voted assuming gender equality. Right? :)

the context might help.

I'm sure being black and being in South Africa 20 years ago wouldn't be nice, but me getting bumped from a internal job competition because I wasn't a one legged french speaking native women a little unfair.

I believe that we are all equal!

.. but some of us are more equal than others :lol:

That isnt equality though, that's preferential placement based on pre-defined criteria, designed to meet social objectives. Equality is all else being equal, you get bumped because she was a better choice for the position.

obviously overstating but in the Federal Gov't this goes under equity placement assumed to make up for past hiring so we have a more equally representative work force.

If they were truly equal who would get the job? :razz:

toss a coin? :p

Yes, we had the same one legged individual in the provincial gov :). But we can't confuse politically correct equity placement with equality. The basis of equality, as far as the workforce goes, should be equal oppurtunity and equal compensation for equal effort. That's just my take on it though :)

That is the fairest solution :)

Good, but very ambiguous question, without the context :cry:

Hmm. I voted equality is beneficial, but there are some major differences between men and women (besides the obvious physical differences, refering more to less obvious [or are they :wink:] psychological and subtle physical differences). For this reason, I may have voted differently given more context.

In what context and how do you define equality?

Is providing all kinds financial aid to the minority a form of equality? What about employment? Every application I've seen has a check box for minority, a clear sign that a qualified minority will beat you out for that job even if your qualifications are better.

If it's related to gender how is it defined? In my field and many others women have the advantage because of equality since they are the minority.

I don't get the question, might get more of what you're looking for if you were more specific.

This is the fun part. I left it open because I mean all equality. Gender, race, religion, disability, sexuality, social status, etc. All of it. If someone said we are tossing out all equality; we are removing the word from the dictionary (so to speak) would you be for this decision or against it? Do you think all these different types of equality benefit our society or does it create more problems?

even to state that there is equality in todays society is being very idealistic. It is human nature to go the path of least resistance, even if that path is to choose someone or something over someone else so you dont catch flack about it later. It may not always be the best choice. Really there is no such thing as equality, there is ALWAYS a faster, stronger, smarter version of ones self. Pulling a race or gender card to get a job or anything for that matter is just one of those things, that in todays society counts as an upper hand. You may not be the biggest, strongest, fastest or smartest or the most qualified BUT you are the path of least resistance, and you are the one working! I feel like to have those poll questions be relavent you would have to live in fantasy land. I am all for women being able to get any job in the workforce, but only based on the basics - ability to do the job well, and speed at which that job is done. If someone is better, learn from that experience, and come back better next time.

get rid of religion and 50% of the worlds problems would be solved

but i believe in capitalism. If someone is going to work their ass off to achieve something they desirve the reward. Doesn't matter what sex/race or what ever they are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT4Fu...eature=related

Equality is just making up rules that you have to live by. But on the other side people do take advantage of their "power" which in turn creates more problems.

and yes equalibrium is one of my favorite movies

You can't remove equality, it's part of evolution. Society has come a long way, eliminating all equality would put us back to the stone age. I believe it goes too far at times but you're asking for a vote on two sides of the absolute extreme, nobody would have voted against if you made that clear from the start.

I take it you're against some part of equality for some reason, usually people only start these kinds of threads if they have a problem with something. Care to share?

Yep, extremes for sure. It wouldn't take us back to the stone age, but maybe back 100-150 years.

I don't have a problem. I do have thoughts on the subject. I just haven't figured out how to express it in a short burst of typing rather than a long conversation. :lol:

The answer to this question is totally how you interpret the question..it is very vague and ambiguous....so I didn't vote because I am not sure what question I am answering and the answer would be different depending on what is actually being asked.
I personally believe in Equal Oppurtunity, but not legislation which make minority groups have more oppurtunity than others. Once minority groups have laws putting them before others, this makes unequal oppurtunity for those other groups.
I definitely don't believe that we are equal. Thank God, because it would really be a boring place if we were all identical. We are all different..even identical twins, while biologically the same, are different in interests and capabilities.
I believe that is is our equalities that make us strong as a society. Plato states that people are best doing what they are naturally suited to do. Not everyone is a leader....but those that aren't a leader might be really be good at building houses or teaching or plumbing. Generally, most people are suited to do certain things regardless of what that may be. There is not enough time in our life times to be good at everything. Therefore, this breaking down of responsibilities and skills makes us much stronger as a society and we can accomplish much more as a diverse group then individuals all trying to be individuals.
just my 2 cents worth
(I just started university again this fall...just trying to make it sound like I am getting my money's worth..lol)
Neal

LMAO! This is the best reply yet :razz:


Equality: I think overall, in terms of this poll, is detrimental. Without inequalities, no one has anything to work for/toward. If everyone is equal, and everything is equal, progress does not happen, evolution is at a stand-still.

Equality is a great thing, Im all for women's rights, eliminating racism, etc.., however, not everything can be equal, or else we run in to the problem i described above.:wink:

I moved to Vernon about 4-5 years ago, semi retired, looking for a part time job. Applied at a local organization growing tree seedlings for the BC forestry industry. Big switch from my tech background to something a little closer to nature. Was not hired because I was overqualified and a male (I think). If I rememer correctly, the HR manager there said men's hands were too hammy to do the work of weeding the seedling trays. The ladies with their slender, deft fingers were a shoe in for the work. All the 'manly' irrigation jobs were taken.

Equality is a myth. Governments try to legislate it, same as culture. You can legilsate it all you want, but ultimately, it's the people themselves, regardless of legislation, that will keep a culture alive, or not, and determine the level of 'equality' that suits their environment. The pendulums of equality, political correctness, culture et al keep swinging from one extreme to the other. They are in different parts of the arc in various parts of the world at any given time. Hopefully, eventually, things will 'equalize', but judging by history, human nature and Darwin's theory, it's unlikely.
Holy cow, did I just write that! Where the H did it all come from?? ... and I have no idea of which way to vote, so I probably won't.

Edit: I guess my vote would be "neither" beneficial, nor detrimental, because it will never exist. What a downer..or a good thing, if you're the guy/gal running the show... Vive la difference!

Seems like it's paying off, well said Neal :biggrin:

Equality is a myth in society - by virtue of a body attempting to legislate, regulate and enforce equality you produce inequaltiy.

actualy it is target hiring which is what the goverment does to try achieve a proportinate ethnic workforce. not equality hiring at all. in equality hiring genders, race, religion are usaly hidden from the interviewers untill the final selection.

Steve

Ok...so the point of this poll:

I have a theory that equality is detrimental to marriages and crime in particular (among many other things). I was wondering any of you would come up with this idea on your own.

Speaking IMO, I believe that by society trying to push equality (among other things) on everyone that men are feeling more inferior than they have in the past. Men have a natural want/need of "me look after woman". With women supposedly having equality in particular place like the workplace men aren't given what used to be their man-time where they go to work at a "manly job" working with men talking about whatever (godawful) things they want to. I really believe men have this need. Now women are barging about their workplace, now they can't talk about godawful things, and can't "be men". This gets taken home where their wife - now a journey[wo]man welder - makes more money than him. Wife wears the pants, and bosses the man around the house. Now man feels like child, which is exactly what woman treats him like. There goes the sex-life, who wants to have sex with a child? (ok some do, but that's not this topic) Without a sex-life the marriage doesn't do so well. (unless you're Mennonite, but they get manly men - kind of)

In the case of crime, everyone's "equal" right? People are taught from a young age to be equal to eachother which creates a society that disrespects authority because, "hey they're equal, right?" ;)

I really believe equality is a brick in the wall, but it's a big brick. Just my (quite random) thoughts...

i like this thread many of you have said some very interesting things,i hope this thread keeps going.

Women are superior to men. No question...:lol:

I disagree. I believe men are superior, they just aren't allowed to be anymore.

And where were you hiding 10 years ago :wink:

Steve

Uh, I was still breast feeding. :eek:


I'm kidding...I was graduating highschool 10 years ago. Ugh...I remember when that seemed really old. :neutral:

:spit: so was I, what a coincidence. :mrgreen:

Steve

:drinking:mmmmmkay, I knew there was a reason I haven't been posting on canreef as much....I think I'll go back and read my book now :silly:

Uggg,
 

I remember years ago attending a conference on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Just prior to this I was running a small company, and grew up with most of my family being business owners.

Anyways, I had a little experience with a group of students working towards a degree in social work. As group we were to decide between 2 people who we would want to hire -- The "job" was working with disadvantaged youth. The two people to pick from were A) 35 year old with Masters in social work, 5 years work experience work with youths, white male and B) 30 year old "ethnic" female with grade 10 only, 5 years experience as an assistant in womens shelter.


Now, from the point of view of a pretend manager/owner/whatever -- it was pretty clear that A was a better person for the job -- nothing do with race, gender,age whatever. Just had more education, and more relevant experience. Simple though process -- who is going to be the best and getting the job done and done well.

I was called foul names by the rest of the group. What about the woman, she might have some real "life" experience, she might not had had proper access to education, she might have never had the chance to blah,blah blah.

The sad part in all of this -- If I am running a business that my livelihood depends on, I DON"T CARE about how rough or great your life has been, I DON"T CARE what your gender,race,age is. I car about who is best for the job.
Somehow, the private sector has been branded as been "good ole white boys clubs", with the need to legislate rules in to "fix" the problem. It seems to me that a lot of these rules seem to put more racism/sexism in than was there to start.

Yes, women rarely got management when they were 20-30ish year old. But, on the other hand -- In a long term high stress, high learning curve job some owners didn't what to go though getting a mat leave replacement just before the big project is due in. Not nice, but it did happen.

I really dislike the "affirmative action" laws, as I think that my local fireperson should be able to haul 50lbs of hose up a ladder regardless if the are male or female. If you drive heavy haulers for a mine, guess what, women are the preferred gender. They driver better and the trucks have less downtime, if as a guy you drive like a twit, you get replaced.

Best person for the job, regardless of gender/race/age/religion/etc. In fact, I wish there was a way to exclude such information from the hiring process completely.

Sorry for the long winded response, my wife is a Sociologist, so these things are normal conversation around my house :mrgreen:

Now this is what I was waiting for in this discussion...

Well, men have this sort of 'alpha male' thing going on, where they need to be the king of their own domain. Whether that domain is at the office ('the boss'), at home ('the breadwinner'), in sports ('the MVP'), etc... it doesn't matter, we definitely need to FEEL superior, whether in truth we hold a high position in society, in the home, whatever. So, what happens when the wife wears the pants? "Fine, I'll stay home and cook dinner, clean the house, wash and fold the laundry, etc, and YOU can be 'the breadwinner'." Nobody ever really wants to be equal, they want to be SUPERIOR! (Even women :) ) So, I'd say your theory is probably not far off. Take it from an 'unequal male' :lol:

Slippery slope, isn't it?

What sort of disadvantaged youth? In what sort of setting? There is going to be a lot of things to look at when making that sort of decision... I can think of a number of situations where B would be a much better choice. I agree that A is more qualified, but would he bring the right... oh, I dunno, let's use the word 'vision', to the youth? Sooo much to ponder here, glad I'll (probably) never have to make that sort of decision. Anyone is qualified enough to stock shelves and dig ditches (though the latter is generally left to machinery these days).

If you're running a business that your livelihood depends on, you shouldn't care about those things. You should be focused on what is best for the business... but often times people are blinded by beliefs, stereotypes, and other insidious generalities. If everyone was truly equal, we wouldn't be having this discussion...

If I had to choose between Fifty Cent and Eminem, I'd choose Eminem simply because I can relate to him better. They are both equally good rappers (I don't like rap, for the record), both come from crappy backgrounds or 'the 'hood' or whatever. But even so, I would hire Eminem over Fity because I 'know where he comes from'... this is a really vague idea to try to get across, so I'll stop there.

I feel that in some cases there was a problem, for both minorities and women. The problem hasn't been solved by legislating that you now have to hire often less qualified (and therefore probably less useful) employees that fill the 'female or minority' slot, which in some cases is going to perpetuate stereotypes and make the overall problem worse.

This is true. I also know a couple lady truckers that do long hauls, and I guarantee they are the safest truckers on the road. At least, I feel safer...

... maybe why there are no female fire fighters in my town, had never thought of that before (never really questioned it, I don't know many women that could drag my dead weight while wearing fire gear)... there are few (if any) women working underground at the mine here but a fair number working in places like the machine shop, labs, security etc.

But that would make the hiring process equal and just. Can't have that, can we. :wink:

taking your fire fighting example here is a good one. In the millitary we had to a an anual express test to assess ouf fitness level. so for a 40 year old man, you have to be able to do the shuttle run for 5min, 17 pushups and 19 situps in 60 sec, as well as a grip test that I believe you had to get 120 total.

so for a 40 year old woman you have to do the shuttle run for 2.5 min, 12 pushups I believe, 14 situps and 65 total for the grip test (numbers might be out a little but work for the example)

now both man and woman are expected to do the exact same job, carry the same equipment, and be able to support there group the same.

so why the differance in standards? Well aparently the female body can't do the same "work" as the male body. ok fine, so why then do they allow them to do the same jobs as the men which require that same "work" with out them being able to meet the same standard?

now I don't have anything against women doing the jobs, and I had several women work for me over the years with out issues, but why are the standards not the same. especialy for people who are there to protect our nation?

Steve

I agree 100%! Different standards are ridiculous. If the women's standards are "good enough", then they should be the same for the men. Making excuses for someone based on their sex, religion, race, etc is absolutely ridiculous. I believe in the Darwin theory...the tough and smart will rise! Don't get me started on Social Assistance and/or obese people....

I work in a male-dominated industry, and while I can keep up to the men (and outwork many) I know I can't work this hard for many more years. I need to look for a more long-term solution.

hey watch the fat comments :mrgreen:
Obese is a bad tearm, with a lose defination as it is bassed on weight for a given high. If you go buy BMI then any body builder is obese. a good example is when I was young and befor I wrected my knees in the mid 90's I was 235lbs, but acording to BMI I should have been 185 as a max so I was obese, but I has a 32" waist and a 7% body fat so how was I obese. now that I am older and have bad knees my waist has increased and I have gotten my weight down into the 220's again.. went up to almost 300 at one point befor and after my knee surgerys.

but at thoes weights I could still pass the physical requirments and keep up to the younger kids :wink:

Steve

To pigeon hole humans is to do them a disservice, to say that all men are stronger/smarter is to deny a significant portion of the human race a happy life.
We all have our strengths and our weaknesses and they are in no way gender specific

Myka, just because you can't keep up with your job does not mean another women couldn't do the same job "working that hard" and be happy.