Info about ORA Corals in Canada
 

Some of you have asked me about buying some of those great ORA frags you often see in the US, and specifically whether or not I can get these for you.

I contacted ORA again to see if anything has changed (as I contacted them previously some time ago about this). Laura from ORA's sales department took the time to provide the following information:

"We can ship fish to Canada but not corals. Sorry, I know you've been asking for a while…"

At this time nothing has changed, so ORA can't ship their corals to Canada. If something changes I will plan on importing some.

Hmm
 

So as bad as this sounds, this means that all ORA frags brought in to Canada are illegal? Even if there second generation frags, you still need paperwork to export them from the US right? How then can Canadian Vendors be advertising that they have all of these ORA frags? If Canada and the US share around 65% exclusive trade (some 1.5 bill a day in goods) why is something like this even a problem. IMO rip down the CanberlinUsa wall and make the NAU (Of course I support the NAU for many other reasons than just shipping nice coral but it wouldn't be a bad side effect)
Levi

No Levi, that isn't what this means. It means someone may have figured a loophole in the process, and is able to supply these frags.
If at some point there is a conviction for this practice, THEN it's illegal at that time, and not before.

*Note: The legalities of a topic do not belong on this board, and will not be allowed, regardless of forum. This board is for the discussion of keeping reef tanks, not importation laws. This post is an announcement by a vendor to advise that he has not, at this time, figured out a method of providing these items. It is not a discussion of legal issues.

True, so "innocent before proven guilty" as always applies. Still would love to know how these are brought in if ORA won't sell them to Canada. I'm sure you would agree though if the laws were lightened a bit people would turn more to aquacultured frags over wild pieces.
Levi

I know I have brought corals across the border. As long as I physically take them across I've never had troubles. Provided they are not mounted on anything that may resemble liverock, including plugs. Not sure if that would work.

I am very interested to find out how some vendors are able to import ORA, while other can't.

Too bad Wicked Frags can't...he is a very good vendor.

Myka, do you know if you "can" get in trouble for this? Luck or no luck, if I went to states and tried to cross the border with 10-15 frags and the boarder gaurd caught you, could you be penalized? I would also love to figure out the ORA situation out. (Maybe then we could finally place an order on reefcentral:lol:)
Levi

I have no idea. All I know is that I tell the guard it is "live coral", and he asks how much it's worth, and away I go. Maybe he's not supposed to let me take it?? :lol: I'm not sure. It is a very small border crossing. I get people from the US to send it to my US postal box (via UPS or USPS overnight), I pick it up there (which is only about 2 km into the US), and I drive it back through the border. As long as it's less than $100 I rarely get charged any duties. I get orchids the same way, and I know orchids can't cross the border in the mail. I have to go pick them up, and then it's ok.

Well thanks for the info, If I ever really need coral from the US then I know how Il get it done:lol:. I have a feeling I'm going to get the gaurd who is having a bad day and just recieved a shipment of new latex gloves though:neutral:. Dave, your thoughts on the matter?

No guys, all that means is as stated; "ORA does not ship to Canada". They do not ship directly to Canada. That is all you can conclude. To me that doesn't mean it can't be done legally and properly through a third party who purchases them from ORA.

Dave, what is really the intent of all these threads you are starting? I was hoping for a productive conversation on the movement of corals around the world and how import and export works etc.

Instead, it seems like you are just wanting to make statements about how it is not possible to bring these corals in Canada and are therefore implying that another vendor is doing something dishonest.

I think this is not cool and these threads should be removed.

Though I haven't tried it, I have heard from many people, including an LFS in Portland (Upscales, I think. The home of the original 'Oregon Tort'), that its easy to take frags accross the border. Simply tell the border gaurd that you have live ornamental coral for your home aquarium, and 9 out of 10 times they'll let you through no problem. The 1 out of 10 times is a guard who has no idea what you're talking about, and tells you to go inside and tell them. The guys inside can be sticklers and what to make sure the coral is on the CITIES approved list (no, they don't want to see a CITIES certificate). It can be a hassle, and on a rare occasion they might be rejected, but for the dedicated, it's easy enough to do.

Anyone want some Tyree, ORA or anything else corals? :wink:

If you will go get it for me, :lol:Boarder gaurds scare me...
Levi

You cannot technically bring stony corals across the Canada/US border without a proper CITES. But as has been stated, it's fairly easy to do if you have an easy going border guard.

Anyone and their dog can get corals from the states into Canada. I'd actually be extremely surprised if people had issues doing so. I have also spoke directly with ORA and had received the same response as Dave.

You can bring soft corals across the border as long as they aren't affixed to live rock. So ordering zoanthids from the states is A-Ok. All hard corals fall under Appenix II in the CITES categories. This means they require CITES permits for import/export every single time they cross borders. Ron99, I believe ORA's main aquaculture facility is in Florida, so when corals ares shipped to their retailers in the USA, they don't include CITES information. This CITES information would be required for the retailer to apply for the re-export permit and then pass the ORA corals onto a Canadian retailer. You are hoping for productive discussion on import/export, and I think this is productive.

If this discussion keeps someone for unknowingly crossing borders with corals and getting charged under WAPPRIITA in Canada or the Lacey Act in the USA, then someone has been educated and this conversation has been successful. Just think about these people...

$615 Person fine for bringing stoney corals into Canada
http://www.ec.gc.ca/default.asp?lang...A-C6AD90C09899

over $1300 Store fined for bringing corals and clams into Canada
http://www.ec.gc.ca/default.asp?lang...4-0EA275A259EA


I think Dave is trying to show people that they have to be aware of the consequences of buying corals. There are some major consequences if governing bodies decided to make an example of someone. Here is an expert of what could happen:

WAPPRIITA, brought into force by the Government of Canada in 1996, provides federal wildlife officers with an enforcement tool to pursue corporations or individuals who illegally import endangered animals and plants into Canada. Maximum penalties underWAPPRIITA for summary convictions are a fine of up to $25,000 and/or up to six months in jail for individuals and up to a $50,000 fine for corporations. For indictable convictions, maximum penalties are a fine of up to $150,000 and/or up to five years in jail for individuals, and a fine of up to $300,000 for corporations.

Cheers,
Scott

No, this is a vendor updating us to the fact that he does not yet have these items, but is pursuing it.

As mentioned, we are not discussing the legal issues here. This forum is for purposes of advertising wares, announcing sales and providing support to customers.
This is not a public announcement forum and any further legal issues will result in all responses to Dave's announcment being removed.

Thanks Scott. I think I am starting to understand the basics of this. But if I understand correctly it can be done if you have a re-export license/permit and a copy of the original CITES importation information.

I have no insider knowledge of how this is done, this is just how I might try to go about it if I were looking to import these corals. So hypothetically, a third party, whether that's a retailer or another wholesaler or distributor in the US could purchase frags from ORA or Reef Farmers. Presumably, ORA and Reef Farmers may have the original CITES for some or all of their corals. They may be willing to provide a copy to the third party for re-export purposes. Now if that third party has a re-export license or permit then they could ship to Canada. Correct me if I'm wrong with this.

So importing these corals is not impossible, merely difficult and may require additional steps between ORA and Canada. Just because ORA etc. do not have re-export licenses and can't ship corals across the border does not mean others aren't able to do so. The wholesalers in LA obviously have permits to re-export to canada, for example, as many LFS here get product from them. Hell, if I were ORA or Reef Farmers, and given the current economy, I would be happy to have a third party increasing the market for my product by exporting it for me.

Anyhow, just my take on this.

Hypothetically you are correct.

I guess the biggest part to remember is that origin of many of the Tyree corals is unknown. How can you obtain the original export CITES is you don't know where it came from?

Dave, your PM's are full, clean it up!

PM's are cleaned up.

Am interested to see what was deleted/edited from the thread! It is an interesting topic, and one some clearly feel strongly about.

No further info on ORA corals coming into Canada since the time of my original post.