Copperband (pls. close)
 

Before I get into this, I just want to start by saying this is not a thread to start a big debate in. I just want to share my last experience with Copperband Butterfly fish and hope something can be learned from yet another of my personal mistakes.

I had already tried 4-5 in the past few years (sad I can't remember exactly). All eating just fine and in most cases very well. All gained weight, looked great and died within months of acquiring them. All showed no signs of health problem until the DAY of death. The last one did seem to deteriorate over a weeks time but never really looked too bad until the end. Every time I can remember they ended up with some kind of internal rupturing (very evident from the bruises) in the exact same area each time. Usually also cloudy eyes.

Reluctantly I tried another because I found one from a members tank who had had it for a few months and it looked great. This was the only way I was willing to ever try one again. Its been a month now or so. He eats prawns, mussels, clams, mysis, ect. Even picks at nori. He had been gaining weight quite rapidly the past few weeks.

Tonight he suddenly showing the exact same symptoms. This morning he looked great, ate all day long and tonight he is having a very hard time swimming, bumping into everything, being blown around by powerheads and mostly unresponsive. He also has the same bruises suddenly on his side.

Needless to say, he is on his way out. I will most likely put him down if he is still the same in the morning as I have seen this too many times now and know the outcome. They do not recover.

I would go ahead and say what I believe is the cause (I think most people know) but lately it doesn't seem like a good idea around here and I simply don't want this to begin another debate. Especially since its not something I can prove.

I just hope that one day soon people do start to realize how tough these fish are to keep and they become less common. Please don't make the mistake I have made. Don't wait until 5 have died in your tank to stop buying them. I am by no means an expert fish keeper but fish simply do not die in my tanks the past few years unless they have jumped or are Copperband Butterflies/Scissor Gobies.

The worst part of it all is how attached I got to this one. I guess I had it in my head that this was finally the one that would make it. Its been devastating tonight to sit by the tank and watch this happen. I also feel I let the member I bought him from down as I had promised a good home to his clearly loved "pet". It wasn't an easy thing for him to let this fish go and I just wish I could have done more.

I have pictures and may post them eventually.

If there has been one thing about this experience that really has been amazing its the way my Naso tang has responded to the Copperband tonight. He has not left his side. I thought at first it was coincidence but I have now observed him "laying" or hovering beside the copperband for hours. If the copperband moves, he follows. He even chased my Yellow tang away just now when the yellow got too close to the Copperband.

I have snapped some pics and will post them. Although amazing to see the Naso act this way, they are very sad pictures :(

The Naso has never shown any interest or bond with the Copperband until it was not feeling well tonight.

Thats interesting, as I also have a CB and he chums around with my Hippo tank. They stay together all the time. Sad to hear about yours :(

So he passed away about 30 mins. after my last post last night. I got ready for bed and when I came back to check the tank, he was dead...the Naso still right by his side.

Another thing I noticed was that he got extremely skinny within that 2-3 hour period where his health declined and he passed. I am not exaggerating, it was about 2-3 hours. He looked great just hours before--and this isn't the first time I have had one suddenly deteriorate this fast and I remember the last thread when I had one die like this many, many people chimed in saying they had experienced the exact same thing...something is not right.

Anyways, here are a few pictures with approx. times to show how incredible the Naso's actions were. I am still amazed by him. It very well may just have been curiosity but in many of the pics, you can actually see him looking down at the dying copperband. I can also tell you he was chasing off any other fish from the tank that came anywhere close to the copperband.

Approx. 12pm

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...bbbbb006-1.jpg

Approx. 1am

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...bbbbbbb007.jpg

Approx. 2:00am (still alive but unable to swim)

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...bbbbbbb034.jpg

Approx. 2:45am (Copperband dead) (Naso had not left his side and this is NOT where he usually sleeps..after I took the copperband out, the Naso left to go to bed)

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...bbbbbbb021.jpg

wow that is pretty sad, sorry to hear about losing your fish. That's amazing that the tang wouldn't leave it's side, makes you think they know something is going on.

Damn, thats sad and cool at the same time. Copperbands are so beautifull. But alas, I will not get one. If you can't keep them alive, I sure aint gona be able to

Sorry for your loss. That was a very beautiful fish.:cry:

I KNOW he knew something was going on. I have never seen him hang out anywhere near the copperband in the past or pay him any attention before this. Its not like they had been "buddies" prior to this. As soon as the Copperband started to look bad down in that corner, he never left his side. I thought maybe coincidence until I saw him chase a few fish out of the area. He never does that. I had never seen my Naso chase any other fish in the tank before.

It is sad but yet amazing at the same time.

Thanks. He was a beautiful fish and seemed to be the healthiest I had ever kept. He ate so well and was super active. Its amazing how quickly things can change for no apparent reason.

:sad:

Such a beautiful fish! That is really sad.

Why my angels died of seemingly the same symptoms you describe, my naso was the exact same way with them. She is such a sensitive and caring fish. She protects the small fish and is the one that seems to let me know something might be wrong (case of the angels). When the first of my angels, the baby majestic fell ill, she swam on the other side of my hand as I tried to swim the angel around in hopes of helping. She was clearly upset when I finally had to take him out to QT.

Sorry for your loss, I just saw what happened after I replied. My angels seemed to waste away in a matter of a couple of hours too. I was told it is a species specific bacteria that only effects large species angels. Maybe this might be so with the CBB as well. If so, if you can get the fish out ASAP and treat it with anti biotic, they will come through. I was told sometimes you need to treat the 2-3 times until the build an immunity to the bacteria on their own. I thought the same thing about what you think is killing your CBBs... but my hunting and research has turned me to see it was more then likely a bacterial infection that killed my fish.

I'm not saying this might be so in your case, but it might be worth looking into a little more.

Very sad. I have heard somewhere that Butterfly's mate for life and if the pair is broken up for whatever reason then the mate is doomed. If this is true then I wonder how many of these fish die of a "broken heart". Is there any difference in survival if you get them when they are still really small? say before they would have had a chance to pair bond.

sorry for your loss
 

:cry:

I am so sorry for your loss. Animals are wonderful creatures..and they can amaze us with things we would and could never imagine. I find it amazing that during his death the other one was continuously by his side (or her side)..but he/she knew that the other one was sick. Thats one great wonder of nature right there!

and..
 

and you know..the one that was dying wasnt alone...

i saw a pufferfish the other day at a store..porcupine..he was ill you could tell, sitting in the corner of this huge tank all by himself, when i looked at him his eyes slowly looked straight at me..i couldnt help but get misty eyed..it was just the way he looked at me. If i could have stayed there with him i would have - but of course that would have looked silly! I kind of said under my breath.."your not alone"..i had to leave the store it bothered me so much..

sorry for the sad note..:cry:

I really don't know what to say. I'm very sorry.

I have three things to say:

1. 5? 5?!!
2. Cyanide.
3. Very interesting about the Naso.

Oh, and ever since I first saw a picture of a CBB in a book probably in the late 80s I wanted one sosososossooooooooooo bad, and when I found out about how generally hopeless it is to keep CBBs long term, I was crushed. My sw goal from so long ago is one I won't attempt. Not unless something changes.

Sorry about your CBB loss, they are really great looking fish, wish I could get one but I know how difficult they are (from past experience) and my current fish mix would not allow for a CBB to even have a chance.

Sorry for your loss. Very odd and sad how quickly your CBB went downhill. I got my CBB 2 years ago and have never had any problems with him, however I know many people who can't keep one no matter how hard they try. I did try to get another CBB last summer but it was from a bad source but I thought I could save him but he died 2 days later.

Very cool though how your Naso stayed with him.

Sorry that sucks :sad:

1.Yes five and Im very glad you were kind enough to explain how you would never have tried yourself.

2.I used to jump to this conclusion too but its not at all fair unless you can start to provide some proof. I think my2rotties is right when she says it could have been but easily could be some kind of bacterial problem that copperband gets in captivity. We just don't know...

Not to mention I stated right from the beginning I didn't want this to turn into a debate about what happened to it. Why am I not surprised it did...

Thanks everyone for all the very kind words and the PM's. This one seems to be especially hard lose. I am really touched that so many people messaged me with such kind words of encouragement and even one offer of a CCB that has been in their tank for a few years! I can't accept that offer but WOW! What a great community to be a part of :wink:

Well, you can't control people's thoughts on the subject, and it is public, so conversations often end up off on something you didn't want/expect. Imo, it really should be a conversation (not a debate...we have no proof, and I don't think you're getting an autopsy?? lol) about what happened to the fish. I find it very interesting that you have had 5 die with very similar symptoms. It really makes me want that autopsy!! Do you still have the body? Did you happen to freeze it? I wonder where an autopsy could be done and what the associated cost would be? I'm willing to put a certain amount of money into that if it's a possibility (an not an atrocious cost).

We will never be able to keep fish like these (that don't seen to have a significant reason for dying, like starvation) if we don't find out what is happening to them. I have a MAJOR soft spot for CBBs, and I would really really really like to see a brighter future for the captive keeping of CBBs.

Sorry to hear of the trouble. I read through the post, and was know that you didn't want to create a debate.... but curiosity always kills THIS cat:

Can you explain this to me? Or point me in the general direction of reading material on the subject?

Thanks!

For what it's worth this is what I was told when I dug deeper to find out the cause of death of my angels...

Many fish have this bacteria but already have immunity to it, then some fish do not, especially large angels. Fish come from all parts of the ocean and they are all exposed to different bacteria, some tolerate, some don't. When fish are collected they are all put together so the bacteria spreads like a cold. Again some build immunity and some do not... some fight it for awhile, but stress due to transport and all that they go through lowers their immune response.

If a new fish is brought home and put into QT, it might be fine until it is put into the display. Then they are exposed to the bacteria within the system. Some get sick right away and some can fight it, then some will either fight it or die. The person that gave me this info is a very trusted source and I consider his word gospel. I spent well over an hour speaking to him about this entire thing and if you do not treat a sick fish, it will die in 2-3 days, sometimes less depending on the health of the fish. If it is in a smaller system you can notice the symptoms and treat it. If the fish is in a large tank it is hard to be able to tell, until it is too late, As in GSP's case and my case.

Sometimes the fish will get this bacteria three times and if it is treated, it will build immunity and get well. From what I have learned about this, I am adding a 90g tank to my system, which will house any new fish and expose them to my water supply. If the fish shows symptoms, I will be able to cut off the water and treat the bacteria.

I asked if this bacteria would die, if it did not have the species that are susceptible to it in the system. I was told no, since all fish have this bacteria. Perhaps GSP's CBB had enough tolerance to it until he was moved into a new system and stress battered down his immune system. I could be wrong but it is not far fetched. The only way this baceteria might not survive is if all sand was removed from the system where it could breed easily and reproduce. He does not believe in having any substrate on tank bottoms. He compared sand bottoms and bare bottoms to having tile and carpet... Of course carpet holds things inside and tile can be easily wiped clean.

I cannot removed all the sand from my system, but the 90g acclimation tank will have a bare bottom and live rock. I am not planning on adding any fish anytime soon, but will enjoy the bonus 90g of water for my overall system water quality. If I end up with a sick fish or a fish that needs to be removed, it can stay down there until I figure out what to do with it. I have the option to cut off water supply and treat disease or just run all my water through it.

My angels did not die in vain and I learned many lessons from it. Now I will always do things differently and learned about mystery deaths that can usually be treated. All the symptoms GSP mentioned happened to my angels word for word... I had one of the fish examined by this person I went to and he was able to make diagnosis of it...

All these symptoms are the same as cyanide poisoning.

I am not going to get into a debate about this with any one. Perhaps I am a dummy to even post anything about it, but if it can help someone else, I felt it was worth while to make mention of it... I am done for now, and hope I don't get my butt kicked for saying anything.

Your right but I am just a little upset about this one right now and don't have the energy to debate or discuss what happened. Im probably a little cranky now too since he passed just before 3am last night and I ended up not sleeping until 5am since I was actually quite upset. The last time I felt this way about a pet dying was my dog 4 years ago. I don't know why this one has been so rough.

On top of that I spent a day away from work today to go pick up a frag from a group order and mine was the only one NOT to arrive. Its been a bit of a trying day to say the least.

Well since we have started to talk about it, yes I am quite sure these are signs of cyanide poisoning. I have done so much research now and I would be very surprised if it were not a ruptured liver.

The only way to test now for cyanide is to blend the fish and do the tests in a lab with very expensive equipment. Not something most of us have access to or could afford.

He is frozen in the freezer now but I will not be cutting him up.

Oh I don't know what I can explain...all I meant by that is it could have been anything that killed the CBB and we'll never know. Which is true but I was just being difficult. I just didn't want to bring up cyanide although I am sure thats the problem here, because it leads to some very nasty debates. Many people do not believe cyanide is used.

Last year after diving in the Philippines and seeing it first hand, I can tell you 100% it is used.

At MACNA last year, one of the well respected speakers (don't know his name) estimated that 1/3 of all aquarium trade fish come from the Philippines and 3/4 of them are cyanide caught. Is this true? Don't know...but it wouldn't surprise me.

Again though, lets not turn this into a huge debate. I feel its good to share these problems for others to learn but the exact cause shouldn't be a sticking point here...the fact is that I have a very healthy aquarium with thriving fish and this species dies everytime in the exact same manner.

Thank you for posting this :)

You are very welcome...:smilecol:

I cannot say if this is what happened to your poor fish, but this happened to mine. I thought it was cyanide poisoning too. It is an easy way to perhaps make the death acceptable since you think there is nothing that could be done. I found the info I had received from this source to be very viable and it makes total sense. Humans get viruses all the time and some people end up getting so sick and can die. Some of us are stronger and have a better immune system then others... I honestly believe fish can be the same. Many fish get ich when they are stressed out, so that can also be so with bacterial diseases as well... it all made sense to me.

Now I will always do things very differently with how they are introduced into my system and how I will treat them if they do get ill. I also get a 90g bonus tank for more water volume that can be made into a hospital tank with the turn of a couple of ball valves and adding a skimmer and such.:biggrin:

Sorry to hear about you loss.:sad:
I had two blue spot jaw fish die on me without any real reason so know how you feel.

Good to hear. I wish I had room for a prober hospital tank.

Ya its sucks, huh? :cry:

The bad thing with all of this is it is impossible to catch a fish in my display... When I am able to catch the fish it is already to late to be of any help. I am not too sure if it is possible for you to catch fish within your display or not.

I am very fortunate to have the space, and a very handy husband that can build anything... as well as a friend that is practically giving me the 90g tank and sump that comes with it. I was going to get new glass for my 44g bowfront and he offered me the larger tank instead...

I really feed bad for you since I know how hard it is to lose a fish, especially one asd endearing as a CBB...

So sorry. Losing a fish really sucks! I feel for you man.

I only tried one CBB...and lost him within a week. I like the bacterial theory.

Sorry to hear that you lost your fish. This may help others that are thinking of getting a CBB, myself included.

After reading this post, I won't ever buy a CBB.
Sorry for your loss

Yet another noob question.... where would the cyanide poisoning come from (if that's what is actually is)?

Any country that collects fish for the trade. But most likely Philippines and its becoming more and more common in Indonesia now too.

They put cyanide in little squirt bottles to take on collection dives. When the fish get scared and hide in the rocks or coral heads, they squirt cyanide into their hiding spot to stun them and the fish float out. Estimates are that about half die right away and half are just stunned for the time being. But of that half that actually are collected, many still are way too weak to make it to land even. The rest often die in our tanks. The cyanide does not stay in the fishes system long at all. It actually gone relatively fast but it leaves behind permanent damage. Perfect for these collectors. The fish will appear healthy and survive until it gets to someones tank. What you don't know is that this fish has a damaged liver or other internal organs and is actually dying slowly. It can take months.

National Geographic put out a study saying that for every one cyanide fish that is caught and makes it to our tanks, a square meter of reef is destroyed--the cyanide kills the corals too of course. Kills inverts, kills mostly everything it comes in contact with. It does dissipate quite quickly in saltwater, so that saves the area from being completely destroyed but after years and years of this, the reefs in some area of the Philippines are looking rough from all the cyanide exposure. I have seen this first hand.

In fact last year we were on a dive in the Philippines and came across what must have been hundreds of very healthy looking dead fish on the bottom of one area of a reef. I was really confused and it was such a sad sight. Of course my dad and I asked after what it was and our guide told us it was nothing...tried to brush it off. We persisted and eventually he admitted it was cyanide fishing and that these collectors had been now moving into tourist areas even. They come early in the morning before anyone was out there and then disappear. My dad got a lot of info out of him about cyanide poisoning. He pretty much said it was rampant around the islands and that no one cared.

Its a big issue that not too many people want to admit is happening and even less can or will do anything about it. You've seen what happens when its brought up here ;)

Great decision hillegom.

It is very sad for me to see posters asking for information of a very difficult species and the only ones who care to post are those that have been lucky enough to keep them for a while.
Those who have repeatedly attempted to keep them and fail do not post their lack of success for some reason.

I applaud GSP for having the courage to do so and you who have made an informed decision based on his post.
Wayne

I'll admit that I was very and horribly discouraged about the saltwater hobby in general when I heard about the cyanide "traps". I really had no idea. I find wild caught is bad enough, but that story just kills me.

I talked to one of the staff at a LFS today about it -- while he knows it still happens, he thinks it's a rare scenario now. I only hope he's right -- else I may just stick with the 20 gallon tank that I have now and not even bother with the big one I dream to have one day....