How to fix our criminal justice system
 

With the recent alarming increase in violent crimes, and slap-on-the-wrist sentencing by our un-elected judiciary, how would you change Canada's criminal justice system?

I don;t believe any one of thoes is the answer.. but rather a combanation of all of them.

Except I do not feel judges shoudl be elected by the public or shoudl they be acountable to the public. they should be elected by there peers on standings of merrit (which is how they are apointed now) other wise we could have a society that will vote in judges on there popularity instead of there credentials.. look how polititions are voted in :rolleyes: .. case closed.

Steve

Similar to why I do not feel that frequent referendums should be held - the average Canadian is not fully informed of all details of the situation, the history, the possibilities. Emotion and personal concerns would wreak havoc on the idea of "innocent until proven guilty". Leave the governing and sentencing in the hands of those who know about it and spend their lives studying it.

I also would be against any changes that make our criminal system any more like the United States. Our model should be Europe. The three-strikes rule is absurd - putting someone away for life because they happen to have been caught with a small quantity of marijuana? I do not support capital punishment, too many mistakes are made. And why stoop to the level of the criminal. People can change, albeit not that often. The Americans spend more on prisons than on education - I think that is truly disgusting.

In short, the Canadian criminal code is a highly complex and carefully thought-out system. I do not feel it needs any significant changes, only changes that are logical and inkeeping with the desires of the electorate.

With the de-criminalization proposed for Ganja ( weed ) then the 3 strikes law would fit in perfectly ...
lets face it if somebody gets caught up with the wrong crowd once then alright slap on the wrist ( minor offence mind you ) ...
second time Ok did not learn the lesson ...
but a third time and either Dude is stupid or lazy or just dont give a damn and at that point aint gonna change ...
on first and second offence mandatory education in reversing criminal thinking and explaining what the consequences are for screwing up another time will be ... these are the people that laws are supposed to protect the innocent from ( since bearing arms to protect yourself is easier for criminals to do than average citizens ) ... rapists and child molesters need not go to the trouble of having three shots at our wives and daughters and mandatory life would be just fine with me.

Talk to any police officer about how lax our judicial system is and you will see things from a different point of view ... there is not a single cop out there that is happy with the resort style jails and the slap on the wrist attitude our laws permit the criminals to run roughshod over society with no regard for the victims whose lives in the case of rape for instance are ruined emotionally and for what ? so we dont look like what to the world ? we have to take the criminals off the streets so that kids can go out and play again without parents worrying to death that some freak that we are too afraid to lock up and throw away the key is back on the streets.

To actually answer the poll properly here goes ...

Death penalty ... although in favour of the death penalty for first degree murder I have hesitation later on in life due to errors that " could " put a innocent person to death " however " ... if irrefutable DNA evidence were to prove the guilt of a perpetrator then I would have no problem with the switch being flipped.

3 strikes ... absolutely ! ... but clear definitions of applicable offences ( minor weed conviction etc excluded )

Judges ... they should be elected by their peers and NOT elected by the public

Texas style Jails ... hell yea ! ... some of these criminals will commit an offence just so they can " winter " in jail with their buds and then come out in time for spring and continue their criminal ( non-working ways ) ... if they really had it hard in jail then it would be a deterrent to getting there and maybe they would think twice before comitting a crime

GPS monitoring ... for those on parole this should be mandatory

Full sentences ... absolutely ... why not serve the sentence ( or whats the point in having a sentence in the first place ? ) or change the length so that it fits the crime

Victims having a say ... this is ludricous ... they are too emotionally attached to what happened and would probably lynch a guy for shoplifting ... if the laws were more reliable to deter criminals and or provide sufficient punishment then victims would be comfortable that justice would prevail.

One last comment and that is the jail system has to be geared more to rehab and changing behavior patterns than to relatively innocent first offenders going in and expert criminals with MBA degrees in criminal pathology coming out worse than they were before. There are very successfull companies right now that are changing the mindset of it's employees so that they understand the concept of positive thinking and that garbage in = garbage out so that positive behavior patterns will produce positive results ... we have to find a way to rehabilitate the first timer so that he/she does not get caught up in a behavior pattern that leads to a 3 strikes conviction and a permanent cell in our jails.

I do agree that jails are too cushy. I thought that something else was meant by "Texas" jails. Now it makes sense.

I couldn't set the poll options to include multiple choices so you can only choose one option.

As far as elected judges, this is an imperfect idea with its flaws. Our current system of unaccountable, appointed judges with their nutty left-wing bias is even worse.

Personally I favour an extremely penal regime such as is seen in Singapore or Japan. For example, the man who attacked the Korean girl in Stanley Park and left her with severe permanent brain damage. In Singapore he would have been sentenced to 200 strokes of the cane followed by a sentence of 25 years or perhaps life.

Ahhh ... corporal punishment ... another excellent deterrent especially for first timers ... remember that US kid with the graffiti in Singapore was it ? ... he got 6 with the cane and deserved every one of em.

I do not think we need police running around terrorizing the populace. I feel that Singapore takes things too far. I do realize that they have extremely low crime levels - at what cost? I feel that our problem is that of western societies in general. Individualism is valued above the greater society. People feel that they have the right to do whatever they want. Traditional (and in this case, Confucian) societies place more emphasis on the group, and I think the individual there feels that he or she has more obligations to society and is therefore less likely to act in ways not considered appropriate by the rest of the population. Look at the kids in Toronto. They seem to have honestly felt that torturing a cat was "art" and within their rights. As far as I'm concerned, they should be put away for a few years, preferably with a few bikers to teach them what domination really is. :evil:

I especially feel that Canadian and American society, particularly the younger crowd, is highly cynical, and if it's not the latest thing, it's not cool. The "artists" in Toronto thought they were pushing the envelope, breaking barriers. In my opinion, this is only partly their fault, as since birth, they have been conditioned to stand out by their family, peers, and most of all, the media. I should also take a moment to point out that I am strongly against this new "American Teen Idol" thing.

Quinn ... what are you saying here ? ... who said anything about police terrorizing anybody ? ... do you think it is the Singapore police doing the caning ? ... the caning is part of the sentence after being found guilty of a crime

Rasta I have been to Singapore, and believe me the people there are scared of the police.. the caning is the sentance but they will "rough you up" to get the confession. also the laws there are totaly nuts.. did you know it is also a 3 canning punishment for chewing bubblegum outside of your home.

there is reasons for there laws.. it once was a lawless place.. now it is so safe and peasfull but that came at a huge price.

Steve

Nowhere have I said that we should model our police like those in Singapore ... corporal punishment on the other hand would be a huge deterrent to crime ... as a society we should be intelligent enough to take what works and apply it and throw out what does not work.

I don't believe coercion is the solution - establishment of a strong civil society is.

So you dont think we cant beat it out of em to at least make em think twice before they hold up the corner store ? ... and that the criminals will come around eventually and become productive citizens by our " no consequence " stance in regards to the liberties that thay take on society as a whole ? ...

the only problem with that thinking is ... well ... it does not work !

and it only really hits home when you or your loved ones become victim to one of these people that you try so hard to protect. Remember who LAWS are trying to protect here is the " innocent " victims ... you are more concerned for the " rights " of the offender ...

the way I see it is if someone goes to the trouble to plan and then execute an offence then we also have to assume that he/she has weighed the consequences for such actions ... what we as a society then have to do is to make sure that this does not happen is to make sure that the consequences are such that they dont want to go to/back to jail ... EVER

Now there are lots of ways to try and avoid people screwing up in the first place through education in schools and so on but the poll was what to do with them " after " they get caught.

There are many things that could be done to improve the criminal justice system and let me tell you from personal knowledge that it takes longer to put some one injail than it does for them to go through the system and be released. i am still doing the paper work when they are already back out on the street. The thing about jail is that they have more comforts than alot of the average working class people that abide by the laws and if you want to learn how to be a criminal than all you have to do is serve time in jail howver you will have to have alot of prior convictions to even see the inside of an actual jail. not long ago arrested a male with over $600 worth of crack and a loaded hand gun driving downthe street. he had an extensive criminal record and was released back into the comounity because he did not pose a rusk to the public. If you want to make changes remove the charter of rights and give the police more power rather than the criminal being the victim and us proving that they did do something wrong and we did not. Make a sentence to jail an actual sentence instead of having to do 1/3 the time and being released. have long terms for serious violent offenders. And maybe lock them all in sepertate cells and keep them isoolated and take away there cable television. hey but that is just me :evil: i am not what you could call a touchy feely kind of person, I think if you want to break the law you should have no rights not more rights that the people who obey and enforce those laws.

I hope you are just saying this out of fusteration and don't realy mean it. To do this would put us back into a time whare "Police" would arrest people because they didn't like the way they were acting. or the way the looked. General population would be "scared" of the police insted of respecting them as they do now. If you can't prove some one did something then then why should you be allowe to arrest them? That would lead to me being arested because there was a robbery 3 blocks down the road and the robber was white.

I do agree there are to many loop holes that free criminals that should be behind bars.


This I totaly agree with. we have a minimum security out here that has a golf course for the con's.. I say that ONCE they are leagaly convicted all rights to TV, golg, music, ect.. should be stripped and hard labour should be reinterduced for more serious offences.
It is pretty sad when some people are better off in Jail then they are on the street.

Steve

Sorry for the confusion bad wording choice on my part. I do believe that there needs to be proof prior to some one being arrested I just feel that there are too many of the loop holes that you refer to. I agree that the general population does respect the police and I do not think that anyone should fear them. However it is the criminal who does not respect the police and is free to tell me to go #%&* myself because he says I put the handcuffs on to tight and he is going to complain, sue me and have my job. It is not the general public that causes the problem and it is not the people that the police need to have more power and control over, it is the criminal that is arrested and has more rights than the police officer who arrested him that is the problem.

Alot is frustration. When you see someone with a record that includes numerous assault convictions and assault on police officer convictions that have recieved a $100 fine for each offence walking around the day after you arrested him and he fights with you it is very frustrating.

Does the department have staff psychologists to deal with job stress?

It often seems to me that the average Canadian feels he or she is being ripped off by The Man. There is this idea of a political "elite", which I think has a great deal of truth to it, but at the same time, the government is not a corporate machine bent on profit at the expense of the states's citizens. I think that as tax payers, we have the ability to influence public policy a great deal. I feel that generally, every law that is in place is in place for a good reason, even when it's me, a suffering college student, who has just received a $287 traffic ticket.

An eye for an eye (cut off hand for theft, etc), public floggings, proceeds of crime, prison work camps, removal of civil rights, prisoners used for scientific experiments......

These are a few of my favorite things. :cool: :biggrin:

Hehe, ya I know how that goes.. I just finnished 4 months of training a while ago so that I can be granted "peace officer" status when it is warrented. pretty trickey getting them hand cufs on just right :mrgreen: I know a few of my buddys were ****ed at me .. especialy when I cuffed them after I was pepper sprayed :eek: Don't want to have to do that one again for a while :wink:

Steve

Yeah the pepper spray is about the worse there is, even worse than a taser if you ask me. :eek:

But what do you think should happen to the police officer who goes against the law? We get tickets for speeding, running red lights etc... but I've seen few cops do the same and nothing ever happens to them...
The law is so screwed up and so many frustrated people, I wouldn't be surprised if vigilantism crops up.

BartmanIsn't that what Mrs Bobbit did? :lol:

opinion only
 

as a newly registered user to this group, i find the subject a little off topic although interesting. it is also ironic that an earlier thread had a member posting his/her displeasure with a traffic ticket for running a red light and ways to avoid the financial penalty. maybe if everyone had a better developed sense of responsibility towards society as well as themselves we could continue to ask important questions pertaining to fragging techniques and helpful tips for home plumbing. for those serious minded types, my own opinion is that criminal behaviour is often related to substance abuse in some form whether by the criminal or in their developmental environment. while i am not a liberal, quite the opposite (castrate rapists, invoke shariah law, prosecute even "minor" crimes) i do believe childhood education is the place to begin shaping a compliant and conforming society.

ps. any ideas or comments on system shock when lights are on a timer and go from off to on with a click - not real natural sunrise, do the corals react?

The Lounge is meant for off-topic posts. :smile:

I rolled through a stop sign (turning a corner), I did not run a red light. I am not trying to escape penalization. My original comment was, bummer, I screwed up and ruined my day. I do realize that traffic laws must be enforced, and that I am not exempt. I think though that almost $300 for this offense is a little high. It was never my intention outright argue that I didn't deserve a ticket. I simply would like to have the charges changed a little in my favour. I think at times the police need to make examples, and perhaps that's what I am, since the fines have just gone up. Remember the attempted murder case in Sylvan Lake which has since been downgraded to criminal mischief causing bodily harm or something to that effect.

Exactly! We can't talk shop all the time!! :razz:

As for lighting just popping on, it does not appear to upset anything at all.

I would expect that Teevee will pay a steeper penalty for his driving error than many violent criminals will pay if they ever get convicted.

okay, i'm new to this and like i said it is an interesting topic
so to stir the sand a bit i'll be more forceful

THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK AND IF YOU TAKE OFFENCE, PLEASE LET ME BE THE LAST TO KNOW (and preferably after i'm dead)

you were caught for breaking a law and should pay the full penalty - it is not for the transgressor to decide what penalty may or may not be appropriate

the ticket dodging services are indicative of a flaw in society, getting away with cheating a faceless entity like the tax man or a traffic fine is considered a success, so why shouldn't i try get away with a minimal and cushy sentence for murder. its only the scale of the offence we are talking about, the mechanism is the same

as for the original question as to how to change the justice system, it should be acknowledged to be flawed but it is also in a continual state of evolution. i support capital punishment yet the stephen truscott case is an absolute arguement against such power being wielded by the state. i've been unlucky enough to have been on both sides of the bars and my experience is that the inside is decidely more unpleasant, cable tv notwithstanding.

Something along those lines, certainly.

mpishi, no offense taken. English common law, upon which our system is based, dictates that I, as a citizen, have the right to defend myself and attempt to sway the court in my favour. As I said above, I realize I broke a law, and I am not trying to escape penalization. I am simply exercising my rights as a tax-payer. To me it's the classic "checks and balances" coming into play.

you better go read about it again Teeee, what it says is you have the right to defend your innocence not the right to get away with it. sence you are not innocent (by your own admission) you would be abusing the system by going to court and fighting it..

Steve

I guess it was wrong to invoke english common law there. What I meant was that the laws are based upon the opinions, actions, etc. of the people, and that means that as a citizen, I can do my part to form the laws. The back of the ticket itself says I can go to court, plead guilty, and then "make submissions as to penalty", which I understand to mean I can get down on me knees and grovel. :razz: If no one ever argued against laws, we'd have a pretty rotten system.