The RED List of Fish, Inverts, and Corals
 

I figured we could all get together and write up a red list of fish, inverts, and corals that should be left in the ocean due to the fact that they are nearly impossible to keep in aquaria for one reason or another. Let's do a red list and a yellow list for those that are questionable. Please suggest animals and I can't think of all of them on my own right now. :lol:

The Red List - Leave these animals in the ocean. Do not buy them, do not encourage LFSs to carry them:

The Yellow List - For very experienced reef keepers only.



RED LIST:


~ Nudibranchs of any kind (have very specific diets and usually die short term)
~ Blue Ribbon Eel (reach 4' length, do not adapt well to captivity, high mortality possibly from Cyanide poisoning)
~ Wild Collected Bangaii Cardinal ("Critically Endangered Species", poor acclimation to captivity, buy captive bred instead)
~ Moorish Idol (rumoured 5% of the fish captured make long term survival, lack of appetite, and prone to disease)
~ Panther Grouper (reach 2' length, "Endangered Species")
~ Butterfly fish - Exquisite, Orange Face, Ornate (these species feed primarily or possibly even exclusively on coral polyps, will starve to death in captivity)

YELLOW LIST:

~ Copper Banded Butterfly (high long term mortality as most are caught using Cyanide)
~ Starfish (other than Brittle and Serpent, most are near impossible to keep long term)
~ Mandarin Dragonets (rarely eat packaged foods, most will only eat live copepods, most will die from starvation)
~ Cleaner Wrasse (specialized diet, poor long term survival)
~ Wild Caught True Percula Clownfish (poor shipping and acclimation rates, high susceptibility to Brookynella)
~ Large Angelfish - Regal, Queen, French, Blue Ring, Emperor (often caught with Cyanide, require specific diet of sponges, prone to disease, often refuse to eat in captivity)
~ Flame Scallops (heavy feeders, high long term mortality)
~ Non-photosynthetic Gorgonian corals (these are usually the brightly colored ones, heavy feeders, high long term mortality)
~ Bamboo sharks (some species reach 4' length)
~ Powder Blue and Powder Brown Tangs (high susceptibility to Ich and HITH, challenging species to keep healthy)

:biggrin:
 

Wow Great Idea! Can you add a few species of Octopus to the red list, specificly the Mimic? Perhaps something about species of Cuttlefish and there has to be some species of Sea Horses that don't do well in captivity/ are rare in the wild?
Levi

Great idea and Im sure I can think of a few fish for the list although I have to say that the Bamboo shark would be much better on the Yellow list...or IMO not there at all.

They are quite easy to keep if you have a large enough tank or pond.

Also there are many species of Bamboo and only one I believe gets close to 4' (Chiloscyllium punctatum)...although I can think of one more that may also get close most species stay well under 3'. Grey Bamboo sharks for example reach a max of 2.5' and often much less. The very common White Spotted Bamboo is about 32" max.

These are just not unmanageable fish and the best suited to aquariums from the shark family. Any of the reasonable sized bottom dwelling sharks live good lives in the right sized tank. They are just not the most active sharks.

The other problem I have with them being on this list is that the White Spotted Bamboos are mostly all captive bred now. We need more of this in the hobby.

Add Pinnate Batfish to the red list :mrgreen:

Great idea.
Everyone benefits and most importantly we stop the necessary deaths of impossible to keep species and give all of us the heads up on those species on the yellow list.

I think all Anthia's should be on the YELLOW list. Maybe RED depending on the type.

Agreed but your going to have to start to get quite specific. Most Anthias will fit on one of the two lists for various reasons. Some are temperate fish for example and just don't belong in our tropical reefs. There are some species that do ok but need specific feedings. You can't just put Anthias on the list (not that you were suggesting that).

I think lists like this can start to get complicated unless you start to add sub categories and not generalize. The Bamboo sharks were a good example...too many species that vary in size to say they all reach 4'.

IMO, pretty much any species should be available. I just don't think they should be part of a regular shipment or common to see in a stores display. Many of the fish on that red list should be special order fish, probably making them expensive and only really sought after by a serious buyer. Someone with the proper set up. I think the real killer in this hobby is impulse buys and lack of knowledge. If these fish are not seen, not easy to get, the average person isn't going to want or look for them but when a Copperband Butterfly is $25 and in stores every few weeks...well people will keep buying and killing them. I am guilty of this. But if someone (and I know someone who does) wants to buy Zoa frags and sponges for their Moorish Idol regularly, then there is no reason they should not be able to keep these fish. His eats absolutely anything it seems anyways...even nori :)

Will never happen but would be nice. This list is a great idea to at least encourage and remind us to make the right decision.

red list
 

Almost every thing we keep now, and consider "easy", was "impossible" less than 20 years ago! Through trial and error we learn. I don't think we should get any animal unless we are ready to try our best to keep it as close to happy as we can. Some animals are harder than others I agree! It was "impossible to breed clown fish, or Manderin Gobies not long ago! I think the best we can hope for is responsible people buy pets of whatever kind! Sadly not always the case!
Just my two cents worth, don't bite my head off.

same deal with the panther grouper, easy to keep fish even at 2' if the tank is bigenough, if its on the list for collection reasons thats a different issue
dosent the goverment have a redlist type of deal on fish allowed to be imported? maybe start with that, i can see this getting ugly

You know what, I'd consider bamboo sharks on your yellow list instead of your red list. The main problem with them is size, but otherwise, they more or less just sit there on the bottom and don't really have a lot of requirements. The main problem here is that most people will not have an appropriate sized habitat for them. But if you had the space to build, say, a lagoonal habitat that was really long, really wide and shallow, I don't see why they couldn't do fine long-term in there.

Also I disagree about gorgonians. Or at least you have to specify that you mean the non-photosynthetic species as being questionable. There are several species of photosynthetic gorgonians that are incredibly hardy in aquaria. Do agree that the nonphotosynthetic gorgonians belong on the yellow list over the red list because it is not impossible to keep them, but it is rather challenging and rather specific requirements that will be beyond the interest of the average aquarist.

This is what I was getting at earlier.

I think the list is a great idea but maybe there needs to be more categories. There could be a Yellow list that is caution for size, a Yellow list that is caution for specific diets, a Yellow list for...well you get the point.

If you are going to say 'Bamboo sharks' and base the entire family on ONE species adult size of 4' then you would have to maybe start to consider adding tangs to the list since Whitemargin Unicornfish grow to over 3'.

I know I am being a little difficult because we are talking about commonly available species here and fish like Whitemargin Unicornfish generally are not that common (although you do see them from time to time) but I think the danger here is generalizing instead of being quite specific. Its only fair.

What about Achilles Tangs? Not the best survival rate...

I vote Achilles Tang in the red list. Their survival rate in captivity is so dismal I swear I will never get one again. I brought 6 back from Hawaii two years ago and as of about 6 months ago, all six have perished.

Sorry GSP I didn't even see your reply before I posted mine. Agree 100% on your points. :)

No need to be sorry man...we seem to be thinking the same things today. :mrgreen:

this is a GREAT thread for someone like me who is just getting into the hobby

~ Mandarin Gobies (rarely eat packaged foods, most will only eat live copepods, most will die from starvation)~ Gorgonian corals (heavy feeders, high long term mortality)[/quote]

Not Gobies. Mandarin Dragonets

A few more for the list
 

Red list fish

Pinnate Batfish- Juveniles are appealing and ornate but the often refuse food and are vulnerable to parasites. and they get big about 20 inches.

Javanese moray- Can grow up to 10 feet.

Napoleon Wrasse- can grow to 7feet and weight 400lbs.

Yellow list

Leopard Wrasse- Difficult to feed need a healthy population of micro inverts.

Signal Goby- Only add to well established tanks.

Orange spotted (longnose) filefish, and blue spotted stingray should be on the red list.

Sea horses and pipefish, purple queen anthias, flagfin angelfish, batfish, leopard wrasse, parrotfish, and boxfish should be on the yellow list.

Great thread and very good idea!

I think we should take the initiative to be responsible reefkeepers, many of the LFS either are not informed enough or don't care. In my earky days I purchased anthias, leopard wrasse and boxfish without sufficient independant investigation and they all died. I also recently lost 3 captive-bred seahorses to disease despite a well-researched, dedicated tank. On the other hand, I have several other fish that are now more than 6 years old. I take the care of my critters very seriously and hate it when they die.

I am sure that together we can develop a good list that will help new-comers and lessen the trade in livestock that should not be for sale.

I applaud this effort.

I noticed some of the species had more detailed reasoning as to why they should not be kept or be kept by experienced reefers. However some are not. I know when I have done my research on fish, I will find info saying generalized reasoning behind not keeping these certain species of fish. Perhaps if others with experience could expand on reasons why from personal experience it might help others. If a species is susceptible to disease, what kind of disease? If a fish typically won't eat perhaps say what was tried for feeding. If a species of fish does not get along with many other fish, perhaps say what fish it was housed with.

Some of us have screwed up along the way, and we all know I have... however if there is info for people that have already impulse bought a fish or was misinformed, and now has a situation, they can maybe help themselves more easily.

Here is a great reference site for the list. My husband and I check it out every time we find a fish we are considering. http://www.aquariumpros.com/articles/badfishlist.shtml

Thanks
When a industry vendor posts this, I think they are trying to tell us something, eh!

TANGS
There is an error on the list and it is a common error.
There are two similar 'powder brown' tangs. japonica and nigricans.
Japonica (the one with the orange on it) is a good tang to have if you meet tank size requirements.
Nicricans is impossible to keep.

If you want to be taken seriously then you need to watch how you word things.
Nigricans is not impossible to keep, I received one in a mix up at JL. The fish lived fine in my 75g tank until I sold it. People who don't know what they are doing may know of someone who has one and when they read the above they may think your full of it.

So instead... A nigricans may be too much of a challenge for most newbies and is better off left in the ocean...A. japonica is a much nicer looking fish anyway and easier to keep :mrgreen:

This list is exactly what I meant when I said things like this need to be well organized and specific. Great list.

You could say something similar about every fish on that list. Just because you managed to do it doesn't mean that 90% of the imports die quickly etc. Hence the fundamental issue with lists like this, somebody always has a counter example.

It's not that I don't agree with the idea but the info is easy to find as it is so why duplicate it here? I don't think somebody is any more likely to notice it here and stop a ill informed purchase than they are to scan the first page of a google result.

And that is why I thought he should maybe quite using the word "impossible" ...It's not impossible just hard.

Sometimes the more often things get said the more likely it will sink in

In a 75? Well Marie, the definition used in the aquarium pro site is >Fish that may be kept successfully, but ONLY in public aquaria that can supply their specialized needs.
I would say that it was pretty impossible to keep our tanks wouldn't you say?
BTW is the nigricans you sold still alive because typically they do well for a while for a while then seem to peter out and die. Apparently something is missing in the diet we provide in our aquariums.

I would recommend this fish on the red list. Do you agree?

I agree with pretty much all the fish suggested, and the changes suggested as well (as good reasons were provided). That's great! :) I was worried this thread could turn into a poo throwing match...which it still has the potential. ;)

This is pretty much what I was kind of setting out to do. This thread could just as well point to that URL. Although it is always nice to have "our own" CanReef thread.

I received a PM that suggested a few of us more experienced reef keepers get together and decide on a list which I think is a great idea, but this could really become a very large project. I could always start with a base like that link RobynR posted, and we can edit it how we would like to. I'm willing to put some time into this if needed.

This would be great, but wow it really could turn into a book!! :eek:

What would you guys like to do? Suggestions?

I think that list (from the link) is a great start but can also be elaborated on. Its still kind of vague. Many new people to the hobby want more specific reasons for why they are being told not to keep a fish. Just saying diet isn't going to stop a lot of people--its still easy to justify by saying..."well its eating in store and I will feed him well and do my best".

Thats where this thread can come in. Hearing personal and real life stories, good AND bad are what can help people learn.

IMO, if we can't change the stores ordering/sales and can't stop people from buying fish they should not be buying, at least we can advise people how to at least give the difficult fish a fighting chance. AND encourage them to only try once if they really must buy from the red list fish.

I think there are enough "experts" here to put a good list together and really get down to details. Some people are quite experienced with tangs and I know I could learn a lot from them...others like me have kept a ridiculous number of puffers over the past 12 years (6 years saltwater, the rest brackish) but could still learn from others experiences.

What about a nice list/thread with all species commonly available. Will take time but maybe if we encourage "easy" species as well as discourage "difficult" species, we can get somewhere. Offering an alternative to a fish that you are telling someone "no" to may be nice. For example, don't try the Moorish Idol for these reasons... BUT maybe you would like to try a Heniochus which look similar but are easier to care for (granted there is a very tough to care for and ID Heniochus species too...maybe a bad example but you get the point).

Just a thought. Would be a lot of work but with enough time, it would probably come together nicely.

Oh and pictures :D

I know you're not looking for more links and want your own list but here is Reef Central's Difficult and Special Care Species list anyways:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...readid=1157901

Funny story: I've tried sharing this list with many people in the hobby locally including our LFS and every time I do someone interprets it as saying "no one is allowed to buy ANY of these". Many people just look at how long the list is instead of trying to read it... then I get crap for pretending to be a know-it-all and trying to tell everyone what to do. :rolleyes:

My message is: I support the idea but be careful about how the list is presented.

This is my favorite quote from that list:

"Centropyge heraldi (almost always caught using drugs)"

I have zero tolerance for drug use in my tank. Any fish caught using drugs is taken straight back to the LFS. Warnings like this are perfect since now I know Lemon Peel Angels are almost always going to do drugs.

I agree 100%! The idea of this thread was to have a short, sweet list of the commonly available, and commonly lost fish so that it would be an easy, quick read in hopes that more people would take a look. For example, Bangaii Cardinals are nearly extinct in the wild and have a very large chance of becoming extinct in the near future, and I would bet 95% of aquarists have no idea at all. Another example would be Powder Blue Tangs. SUPER popular, but rather difficult to keep healthy, and SO many people have no clue.

The list is a great idea. Alot of the stuff on it can be helpful. And hopefully we do take
some responibility. But my thought is none of us should really do this at all. From live
rock, live sand, corals, fish, even crabs and snails. It is very selfish to say the least but
here we all are. Stealing from the oceans and paying someone along the way to bring us
each what we want. Do we wait till things are endangered before we take a stand. Seems a little backwards to me. We all are guilty if you ask me.
We are not looking at the bigger picture here, there is no way to justify this and if we do
we are only fooling ourselves. On that note, happy reefing everyone. * Meow *

This list is a great idea. I for one will pledge NOT to purchase any of the species on the RED list.

I would like to say the same but since I still don't believe in a complete ban of all these red list fish, I can't say I will. In fact I know if I ever found AEFW in my tank, I would be after the Nudibranchs that eat them in a heartbeat. I also have plans to try a Moorish Idol one day (especially since many of the recent ones coming into JL have been eating right away and I will buy it Zoas and sponges to eat). With regards to the Moorish Idol, I will only try one and if it doesn't work, I know better than to keep trying...I learned that lesson with Copperbands.

IMO the red list fish need to be more carefully brought into stores through special order but not banned completely unless they are endangered.

As much as this hobby does its part to destroy the ocean, it is FAR from the leading reason the ocean is in decline. Stop the collection and destruction for this hobby and trust me, the oceans are still going to be disappearing/declining at an alarming rate. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do all we can to help but I find comment like this about how no one should be doing this hobby to be way too "PETA" for me and it drives me nuts...how can you be so hypocritical? There is always a balance.

So it gives us the right to take it. You have missed the point here. Yes we all are hypocritical. How would you like to be put in a cage and kept by seacreatures?????
Not much I would guess.

These so called "lists" just seem to **** people off more than they do any good. Much easier if people spent a little time doing research. There's too many ignorant people that just figure "oh well... I'm gonna try anyways" Most of what I read are people that have had tanks set up less than 6 months and don't listen anyways. If you don't research, you don't learn. It is probably not a good idea to take a list like this to a LFS telling them what they should and should not sell. Just like another member says "you have to use the proper wording". It can start some nasty arguements.:biggrin:

Most times research tells us they are hard to keep due to not eating or water quality must be mint... if the fish is eating and the water params of the reefer are mint, it will give us a green light to go ahead... then little do we know there are other factors involved and the things you know you can provide are simply not enough.

If some fish are coral nippers, and we have a few corals it would be nice to know which corals have been targeted to either remove them of watch them.

I have never bought or will try a red list fish at this point. If I ever did, it would be from another reefer and not the LFS. If people expand on their experience it helps others know better. If someone has made the mistake of buying the fish already any success stories in keeping specialized creatures can help them try their best to be successful themselves.

There are other things about fish like jumping that some research may not show... things like how to keep the fish from jumping and measures reefers had to take to keep them in the tank is appreciated since a canopy might not be enough.

There are only a couple of LFS in my area that are very honest and knowledgeable with customers. There are a few that will tell you anything to make you feel alright about buying the fish. Then you come home with a disaster and the store won't stand by what they told you. However there are a couple of stores that will stand by the info and help you out. However it is not always the case and new reefers have trail and error with every store until they learn the hard way.

As I said "these so called lists start arguements." Listening to some kid making minimum wage at a LFS is not research. I'm not going to add to any list or argue someone elses opinion of what should be on it. I guarantee that the people who are adding to these lists have never owned some of the fish that they are posting up. This fish did'nt work out for me or Joe Blow so you should'nt get it. They don't know what people have for setups and there is alot of people who do not use forums because of conflicting beliefs. My points are that each person should do their own research. And the other is, that nobody should go to someones place of business and tell them how to run it.

I whole heartily agree with you...

When I bought my puffer, I bought him from the OWNER of the store who's been in this business for thirty some years... I honestly though he could be trusted since he has been in business so long :neutral: Now I know better and went through some losses of livestock but now have been able to make him work in my system after a lot of trail and error. Now I know better...

I also now have learned to pay for my fish and leave it at the store for a month or two. The stores I shop at have no problem with that, and are happy to do so... This way I can do my homework and decide if the fish will work for my system and see the pros and cons of having this species. It also gives the store a chance to ensure the fish is healthy and eating. The one fish I have sitting at the LFS has been there 10 weeks and has finally been deemed fit for my tank. I have not, and will not be bringing it home, but they are holding it even longer to make sure I don't change my mind. Then they told me what I need to do with my system to ensure he does survive and how to treat him if he does get ill. Many of the stores I deal with do not bring red list species in, but the store I bought my puffer at does... he sold a batfish to a girl whom is struggling to keep him alive now but she was told the fish was fine and eating...

Sometimes research does not bring up things that can and do come up, and personal experience from reefers that have kept these fish would be most helpful. I will never personally ask on the forums about things since it causes heated debates and flames directed at the questions. However I can find people in my research and PM them personally for help which I have done now.