ZEOvit/200G Build Journal - 34G Solana
 

Going to need a lot of help!

I posted this over at the ZEOvit.com forum but I think the more help I can get the better. This is something I am worried to start but am also excited.

The main reasoning to start ZEO is my love for fish and feeding them but also wanting nice corals :D My fear is because the tank is doing ok without ZEO and I have heard some horror stories about starting up...although I think most of those people rushed or did it all wrong.

I have bought a start up ZEOvit package with reactor, rocks and the three basics. I am not even close to ready to start yet though.

I have been doing research but need some help to get going. Here are the tank details that I posted as per ZEOvit.com

1. Gross water volume of your complete system (incl. sump etc.)

150G

2. Net water volume (incl. sump etc.)

140G approx.

3. Are you using a CaCO2 reactor or other technique

Dosing two part and have lime water in my auto top off (Going to start the Balling Method most likely though)

4. Are you using a PO4 reactor (how long, how long ago, etc.)

Yes, 3 months, Opti-Phos renewable media

5. Are you using Ozone

No, not anymore, stopped about 4-5 months ago

6. Are you using UV

No

7. What skimmer are you using (type, rated water volume)

ATI Bubblemaster 200, I believe rated up to 250G?

8. What are your actual PO4 and NO3 levels

PO4- 0 ppm
NO3- 10-15 ppm

9. What are your actual Ca, Alk and Mg levels

Ca- 380-400
Alk- 11 (too high I know to start ZEO)
Mg- 1200 (working on raising it)

10. What filtration method do you use (refugium, DSB, Miracle Mud, etc.)

Refugium with chaeto

11. Type of light (Watt, color temp, how old, etc.)

Dual 400Watt MH, 14K, brand new bulbs
2x80 watt T5 14,000K daylight
2x24 watt T5 Actinics

12. What corals do you keep

SPS dominated, some leathers, mushrooms, couple of LPS...very much a mixed reef. Also photosynthetic gorgonians and a few sponges.

13. Tissue color (light or dark)

Medium? Depends on the coral...great, very bright color from sps like digitata, monti caps and Milli's. Not as great color from most acros (higher nutrients) and dark color in some like Bali Green Slimers. Very bright coloration in softies and LPS.

14. How long has the tank been running

3 years BUT it has gone through many, many changes and moves. The LR is all very old but many corals have only been around about 3-4 months.

All in all I would say this current set up (the way it is now equipment and stocking wise) is 8 months old.

15. Why do you want to use the ZEOvit system

I have many, many fish and feed them a lot! My fish will always come first and corals are more decoration for me...having said that, I want pretty decorations! I have been told that with my heavy bio-load and feeding, I should consider ZEO. After reading about it, I love the idea and control you gain.

Short term, I am looking to simply lower nitrates. Long term, I am looking for stability, growth and color.

16. Any supplemental dosing (type, amount, why, etc.)

Two part for alk, calcium. I also just started dosing Mg to get levels up.

17. Live rock (how much, how old, etc.)

100 lbs. max. All anywhere from 2-8 years old. Most I would say is about 2-3 years old though.

18. Any present problems

Little bit of ich on my hippo tang. Not the best color in my photosynthetic gorgonians anymore.

19. Problem description (tissue loss tips, tissue loss base, diatom bloom, algae, etc.)

No algae at all. Lost some color in my acros once the nitrates got above 5 but obviously know the reason for this

20. What test kit do you use (how old, recently switched, etc.)

Salifert mostly. My calcium kit though is Nutrafin and my Mg test is Elos.

21. Present dosing, amounts and intervals (ZEOvit, ZEObak, ZEOfood, ZEOstart, ZEOspur2, etc.)

None...haven't started yet. Too scared!

22. Other water parameters and water stability (salinity, temp, etc.)

Temp. 79.5-80.5
Sg. 1.026

23. Which salt brand do you use

Tropic Marin but I have to change because my store is no longer carrying it. I am going to switch to Reefers Best once I start ZEO.



Will get some current tank pics going soon.

Right now the "rocks" are soaking in RO/DI and I will most likely remove my refugium tomorrow and install the ZEO reactor.

GSP, Gross water volume and Net should not be the same. Net would take into account the Rock and sand displacement

J

Actually I was confused about that. I will update that once I figure it out...

I have about 100lbs. LR and a .5-1" sand bed throughout the display. Any ideas?

Hi GSP,

Fellow Zeoviter here. I just started it 7 weeks ago on both my FOWLR and Reef. So far, so good.

I notice your net and gross water volumes are the same, yet you have Live Rock. FWIW, when I set my current system up I made a point of determining how much water the Live Rock displaced in the display. 178lbs of Bali and 58lbs of Fiji (total 236lbs) displaced 16 gallons. Of course this is variable to others, depending on the density of their rock. Just thought I'd mention it. Your 100lbs would displace somewhere in the ballpark of 7 gallons giving you a net of 143 gallons. Not a big difference. Again...for what it's worth.

I like your answer on the coral colouration question. Medium? Haha, I think I said the same thing. I'm not sure what they mean by light vs. dark. To me vibrant vs. dull would make more sense. I'm going to ask them about this next time I post an update.

Good luck and cheers,

I don't recall if I took my SB into account. Anyway, see my last post re: the rock displacement.

Hey thanks Johnny! I think to be safe, I will go with 140G net. I would prefer to slightly be under than over.

Glad its going well for you so far. I am hoping to have the same success!

FWIW, here is a pre-ZEO picture of the tank. The tank is a room divider and makes picture taking very tough for me as light on the other side interferes. I took this one at night which helps a bit, otherwise the windows in the other room glare through the tank. I am no good with the camera and this pic looks like the exposure is a little off. I am trying to get better though!

I know the tank is not even close to as brilliant as some of the ZEO tanks I see but thats why I am starting!

I will also take some pics of individual corals to document growth and coloration but I will warn you now, I have nothing rare or special in my tank! Just the usual suspects!

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...th/Tank158.jpg

EDIT: The reason for the black bars is that my stand/canopy are still not done and UGLY! LOL

One thing ZEO doesn't ask that maybe useful is fish load/list. I guess they don't really care as it doesn't directly impact ZEO but of course the nutrients caused by the fish matter ;)

I will post it anyways...

6" Naso Tang
7" Hippo Tang
4" Yellow Tang
5.5" Blue Spotted Rabbitfish
3" Mandarin
2" Pair of Clowns
6- 3" Scissor Gobies
9- 1.5-2" Blue Chromis
2" Fang Blenny
2" Cleaner Wrasse

Thats 24 fish! Definitely about the max I can go :D

Feed 3-6 times a day. Mostly pellets. Every two days I feed Mysis soaked in Tropic Marin vitamins and garlic. Nori daily for the tangs and rabbit. Only tang that does not eat nori is the Naso. He nibbles if the pieces are free floating but otherwise he doesn't care for nori.

The mandarin is hard to feed with all the tangs being so aggressive. He seems to know to wait in the corner though and I will target feed him. I am debating finding him a home in a much less "aggressive" tank but so far haven't made up my mind. I really like him and he is eating very well.

So Jason has helped me a bit over the phone today (Thanks Jason!) and this is the other advice I have received over at the ZEO forum:

Wecome GSP, yea, the window-dressing that the corals provide are a lot of fun Read & download the ZEOvit Guide as it's contains info on the components used in ZEOvit. You're correct in not starting ZEOvit method until all parmeters are inline, including K+[potassium] as you'll need a KZ Kalium test kit & if low[< 380ppm] dose K-Balance Strong@0.5ml/25g net 3-4x's/day daily. Allow the alk. to gradually drop into range[mid-7's] over the next 10-14 days. The recommended guideline parameters are as follows:

Ca 380-420
Mg 1200-1350
dKH 6.5-8.0
K+ ~ 380ppm
salinity 33-35ppt.

With ZEOvit, P04-removers are not needed & counter-productive to the bacterial guilds that process these nutrients. It's best to pull this offline when you eventually begin ZEOvit. For your reef, I suggest the following:

1) place 1 1/4 Cup of well rinsed/soaked activated carbon in a filter bag, passively in your sump. Knead this carbon bag daily & replace monthly.

2) place 1.25ltrs[1 1/4 bags zeolites] in a zeo-rx. with the flow rate of 100-125gph.[~30 seconds to fill a one gal container from the zeo-rx pump] Cycle the rx. on & off at 3hr. intervals, being sure the stones remain submerged when the rx. is off. Clean the zeolites 2x's/day daily with 10-15 reps of the plunger each time while the rx. is on. Initially, the zeolites are exchanged at 4wks. thereafter, the time frame is 6-8wks. Always use 10-20% 'old' stones to seed the new.

3) dose 5 drops Bak & Food7 daily for the 1st 2wks. then dose these 2x's/wk, near the rx. when it's on. ZeoBak can be refrigerated.

4) dose 0.5ml Start2 2x's/day daily near the rx. Dose these basics immediately after tumbling the stones for the best effect.

5) optional: dose 3 drops CV[coral vitalizer]daily into the display for coral nourishment. Later, after zeolite exchange[s] other supplements can gradually be added.

Be sure to post at your 1st exchange, as some dosing adjustments maybe necessary. Bob

Basically what Jason had already advised and the way I am going to approach this. Slowly.

So first off I think is getting all params in check. I have a feeling it could be a week or so until I get the ZEO reactor going as my ALK is way too high. I have stopped with the kalk (for many reasons) and this should help. I was going to stop with kalk in my top off regardless because lately I have just heard of way too many tanks being wiped out due to overdosing!

Actually here is a shot of the stand/canopy (some of it anyways). What I am still working on is the canopy filling/painting and a stand addition. The stand addition is for a storage area and also a small counter top/table beside the tank. The tank divides the kitchen and living area.

The addition as you can see needs to be topped with plywood and then either tiled or painted. The plan was to use the glass tile you see there in the picture but we have since decided to just use sealed and painted MDF to match the rest of the stand and keep things simple.

I think the glass tile would have gone very well with the tank and our modern furniture but it was also quite expensive.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...th/Tank039.jpg

Hey

I too was freaking out to start the zeovit, hearing that the tank could crash, etc.

anyways I started it up, and its nothing but amazing. I am now three months in. so far so good. Dont try to rush anything.
I am not sure if you are using KZ salt, but I found it hard to keep the tank buffered.
maybe if someone reads this, and knows a solution, PM me.
Great aquascape you got there.

Hey thanks for the reassurance!

I plan to go very slow. I have had the rector and everything just sitting around for a few days now while I figure it all out. I actually have been reading for a few months now to figure out if this was the right thing for my tank but still feel nervous. After all the reading, this is certainly a great idea for my tank...high bioload and sps dominated. You know what I am really scared to do...take my refugium off line! I know it does a lot for the tank! So I am expecting a nitrate spike for a few weeks while the tank adjusts to no macro algae and the ZEO bacteria gets going.

I am using Tropic Marin salt at the moment but am switching to Reefers Best since it is made to work with the ZEO system. What are you finding hard to keep buffered while using it? It has a low alk right?

Some of the more successful ZEOvit tanks I have seen in Europe seem to be using the Balling method to keep everything else in line. I am going this way as soon as I can find the money to buy a proper doser and the salts.

I am going to test my tanks levels again today and see if the alk has dropped yet. I really hope so.

I also have to get the K+ test since potassium is one of the major elements that is depleted in a low nutrient ZEO system. I have actually never tested potassium before so that should be interesting.


EDIT: From all the reading I have done on ZEOvit.com last night and various other sites, it seems that most of the problems have occurred when people have rushed into ZEO without testing their water parameters and adjusting them to suit the ZEO system OR because they thought adding more than the recommended doses would speed the process up. Then there seems to be some problems when people start using the entire line right from the start instead of starting slow, testing and using the additives that suit their system.

I have been told that once I get the reactor going, I should begin by cycling it on and off in 3 hour intervals. So 3 hours on, 3 hours off, 3 hours on, ect.

From what I gather, its to be sure the tank is not starved of nutrients all at once which leads to sps problems.

Just wondering how many of you actually did this? I am going to go ahead and do it since I can just set up my controller to turn it on and off for me but I had never heard of this before until some of the guys on the ZEO forum told me its very important to do.

I didnt cycle my zeo at all, just got it up and running, change the zeolites, every first day of the month. keep the same dosing schedule, for 3months now, but am going to start adding, an extra drop of everything, see what happens.
I TOO, had the same problem with the refugium. i was like, am i going to keep it, ????? didnt know what to do, then one day later, started syphoming, the samd out and that it was. I wasnt running a skimmer, for 2 years, before I started the zeo system, so i made sure it was up and running for a month before i started.
yeah i find it has a low alk, dosing everyday to bump it up.

anyways, if you have any ques, pm me.

Thanks again. No real questions yet since I am just waiting until my water parameters stabilize until I start anything. I have very high alk from dosing limewater. I have stopped for three days now and will see if that helped.

BTW, anyone using the Vertex ZEO reactor? Thats what I picked up simply because it was cost effective. Seems very well built too.

the one 3 and off 3 is very important I believe it is the number 1 cause of tank craches or cyano out breaks. But you can do something else. just dial the pump down from full open to about 1/3 open then you can run it full time

J

Ahhh yes that makes sense. Either way for me is easy. I certainly got the feeling this was an important step though because every single newbie thread I read through on ZEO.com had this advice given to them and made it clear how important this was to do for the first month or so. Some of them said you can even continue this long term and always have it cycle.

Jason how often do you change your ZEOlites?

I change every 12 weeks. but at the begining I'd say 8 to 10 weeks

J

Yeah I have my reactor effluent dialed down as when the pump is off the rocks are out of water as the level in my sump isn't high enough. It works fine :biggrin:

Good to know. I think the rocks would still be in the water even when off but I am not sure yet. I will have to see and then make a choice.

Thanks!

I did the 3 on, 3 off and my sysytem is not SPS. I have only one Turbinaria. I think it's important regardless.

Oh I totally agree, it just wasn't feasible in my case and they (the zeovit peeps) suggested dialing back the output as an option

One of the experts on the ZEO board gave me this info:

cycling balance reduces the nutrients more effectively than continuous flow, although, it is not an absolute, & nutrients will gradually be depleted with continuous flow, albeit longer time needed. Generally, the cycling is recommended until all 'stored' nutrients within the live rock/sand is depleted...about 4-10 mos. with the avg. being 6 mos...this is considered latter Phase 2 or Phase 3[see Phase description in the sticky section]Cycling can be done indefinitely, if one so chooses.


So cycling 2 on and 3 off will actually remove nutrients faster. Something I am definitely going to do.

Just need to test the potassium now and if that is ok, I can start. Otherwise I will need to dose for potassium. My alk has dropped to an acceptable level for ZEO after a few days without the limewater dosing.

EDIT: No my alk is still a bit too high. I just went back to double check the acceptable level for alk and I am still too high. So more waiting. No rush anyways...

Was really hoping to start ZEO this weekend but my water is still all out of whack :(

Sg. 1.026
Temp. 79.5-80.4
NO3 15 (Salifert)
PO4 0.03 (Elos)
K+ 320 (Korallen Zucht)
Alk 14 (Elos)
Ca 440 (Elos)
Mg 1250 (Elos)

I am going to dose the ZEOvit K+ product to get potassium to 390 and stop all together with the alk part of my two part to try to get it down! I can't believe its still so high. Thats the one that is really stopping me from starting...maybe next week sometime.

Thanks for posting about the on/off cycling of the pump. I was misinformed on that and went with continuous flow after just two weeks. I'm just over 9 weeks in, now, and have gone back to 3/3. I hope I didn't screw things up 7 weeks ago.

Cheers,

I doubt it. It sounds like if you were seeing good results with it on all the time, there isn't really a problem. I think its a good idea to go back to 3/3 but I am not one to give you advice. I have just been reading and reading and reading so far.

The problem with having the reactor going all the time in the beginning was that it can be too much of a shock to the system. Apparently you can strip the water of all nutrients very quickly with ZEO and kill off your sps.

Many of the cases where reefers encountered RTN at start up was because they either used too much Zeolites, too much flow through the Zeolites, too much dosing, ect. Basically a huge shock to the tank.

Now if my darn alk would just go down!


FWIW, I have NO more faith in Salifert test kits! Elos all the way now. Someone over at the ZEO site messaged me saying to try testing alk three times in a row with the Salifert test...I thought it was weird but did it anyways. Hmmm...different every time. Tried the Elos 2 times in a row and exact same each time. Many people over there have been saying the Elos or LaMotte kits are really the way to go. My salifert nitrate kit seems off too.

Interesting. I have an Elos KH kit just sitting doing nothing, waiting for me to "use up" my Salifert kit. I think I'll consider the Salifert "used up" and give the Elos a go.

Thanx and cheers and good luck with that Alk,

How are you reading your elos test kit? Is it 1 drop=1dkh or 1 drop=.5dkh .
I followed the directions on the paper 1 drop= 1 dkh and had a reading of 15 dkh (salifert was reading 7.8 ) It took days for my alk to drop to 10 dkh and then someone on here posted that the instructions on the paper are wrong you have to follow the directions on the card which reads 1 drop = .5 dkh my alk was actually at 5dkh and the elos and salifert test kits agree with each other :lol:


http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=48135

Well...that would explain things! LOL

But I have been reading and checking around and found that the Salifert ones are suppose to be quite unreliable. If what you say about ELOS is right (and I do believe you) then my salifert and elos do not match.

By now my dkh should have dropped. Going by .5 dkh a drop, it has. Going by my salifert, it has stayed the same or gone up. I tested with salifert three times in a row and got different results each time.

I am not really sure what to think of it all but I will test with Elos again tomorrow with this new info and then see if I can start ZEO.

Marie, thanks so much for this info! If not for you mentioning this, I would have been going nuts wondering why my alk wasn't dropping!

Thanks! Give the Elos a try and let us know what you find compared to the Salifert. I am interested.

Tested this AM. Twice with each.

Salifert:
Both tests came out at 7.8dKH. This an interpolated value. My check solution tests at 8.4dKH, not 7.4 as it is supposed to. The aquarium water prior to interpolating came out at 8.8dKH.

Elos:
Both tests came out at 9.0dKH

pH at the time was 8.24 (Pinpoint).

Hmmmm, I don't know what to believe now. I like the Salifert reading better :sad:.

One other thing to note about the Elos kit....some of their KH kits currently "out there" have an incorrect 5ml line on the vial. It is lower than it should be. So, when measuring the water amount measure to the syringe 5ml line, not the vial line. I have one of the screwed up vials.

Cheers,

Yeah I don't which to believe either now :(

With mine though I find it hard to believe the salifert test because for one it was inconsistent but also after many days without kalk and very little alk dosing, the alk had to of dropped. If I go with the Elos, it has dropped to 7. Which is perfect :)

But I don't want to only go by the Elos kit just because its giving me the number I like. Running ZEO with a high alk (over 10) could kill my tank!

On another note, I found the K+ test from Korallen Zucht to be very easy to use and seems like a very well put together kit. Although I have nothing to compare it to since I have never tested potassium before now.

Sounds stupid but why don't you take the average of the two tests. Or repeat (2x)the tests to ensure consistency of numbers. I use the KZ test too, but i fiind it hard to read.

No not stupid :lol:

This is what most of the people I asked on ZEOvit.com are doing. They use both Salifert and Elos and either use the average or just make sure both are within range. Many of them said they find Salifert a bit high and Elos a bit low. Actually using both could be the best way to go IMO.

I think my Salifert ALK kit was one of the ones from that bad batch not too long ago :( So going by my experiences with the Salifert ALK kit is not a good idea and I should probably try another one.

I just hate to think about how much I have spent on test kits now! Well over $300 last year :sad: Just the Elos Mg, Calcium and Phosphate alone were like around $120 plus taxes or something. Then the K+ kit was $50 with taxes, ect. ect.

So tested again...

Ca 420
Alk 7
Mg 1300
K+ 320 ish (low but I am dosing potassium)


So safe to start ZEO! But I haven't...I am still so worried to start!

Seems like everyday the past few weeks, the tank has been looking better and better. Coloration is great, growth is great. I am so scared to ruin things. The reason I still want to do it though is that nitrates have now crept up to about 15-20! Jeez. Funny thing is though, the corals are responding so well to the increased nitrates.

Guess I will start tomorrow anyways...I don't want to see where this tank is going if I continue to let the nitrates rise.

Jeez...still no luck. As of tonight...

PH 8.59
Ca 450
No3 10
Alk 8.5
Mg 900 (Dropped quite a bit...not sure how since yesterday :( )
K+ 300 (Dosing potassium but not doing much yet)

Got the reactor in my sump (without the rocks), so just need these darn levels to get right!

Removed my refugium though the other day so I am getting a little nervous about nitrates rising. I had expected to be able to start ZEO this weekend but no luck yet.

I think the Mg test I did must have been wrong. There is no way that could drop like that overnight basically. I did some reading on Mg and it is used up relatively slow. Even just based on the salt I use, it shouldn't be that low. Plus I am dosing Kent Mg.

So I am going to test again today. Actually maybe get a LFS to test for me too so I can compare :)

How many of you running ZEOvit are watching the K+ real close? I know its very important with ZEO and I do trust all the experts at ZEOvit.com but do I really have to wait for it to get to 350-380 to start ZEO? Its at about 300-320 now. I have been told its not a good idea to start until everything is stable at natural sea levels. Otherwise its quite risky.

I have a feeling ZEO means a LOT more testing in the future. There seems to be a big difference in the tanks I am seeing on the ZEO forum that are really keeping on top of things and the ones that are running ZEO but not really caring all that much about keeping levels perfect...the ones taking that extra time are getting INCREDIBLE results.

I guess if I am going to do it, may as well commit and keep on top of testing :D

I guess I would be one that is trying to keep my levels in line but having a hard time with it. I do agree with levels perfect ZEO's results are amazing.
Keeping K levels at or around 400 was expensive and very difficult. That is one of the reasons I switched to RB salt. Because if the higher than average K levels. After the switch I stopped dosing and reading the levels. I guess I really should start back at it.

I know from experience getting the K levels above 380 does effect the corals in a very possitive way

One has to assume that in development of all of Zeovit addatives that effectivness was judge in a tank with perfect levels

J

LOL, I ended up sending a photo to the guys on zeovit.com I was so ticked off at how difficult it is to read the test. He was like "yep you're at 380". I have no idea how he could figure that out from a photo.

I found with my testing that its very important at first, then less important as you go along. By this I mean test often at first, then less often later. Currently I test every 2-3 weeks vs every waterchange (weekly). I'm also using RBS which helps.

Actually yes I have been told that the results of ZEO are all based on keeping perfect levels. I guess they actually "tested" it on a 15 year old tank for a long time to get it to where it is now.

When reading through the ZEO site, I notice way more test results posted than any other reef site I have ever been to. The build threads are all about test results :D. IMO that makes sense since we are trying to keep things as close to natural as possible, even if your not running ZEO. I really never used to test much but my tanks have also never looked nearly as good as some of the ZEOvit tanks I am seeing.