Sigh...I have seen this look before
 

I swore this was the LAST try and was really hoping it would work out but I am not so sure now. I have noticed my "newish" Copperband acting kind of lethargic. Maybe lethargic is not the best description. Maybe "brain dead" is better. LOL. He looks incredibly healthy and until two days ago acted normal. He started getting less active and hangs in corners a lot now. Kind of stares blankly at rocks.

I have seen this almost every time I have tried a Copperband and with their track record for being cyanide caught, I am not surprised. I spoke to someone who is a collector in the Philippines (on RC) the other day and he confirmed that the amount of cyanide caught fish from that part of the world is much, much more than we think. So makes sense. I have also seen the aftermath of cyanide collecting there first hand...but that wasn't the point of this thread :)

Hate to see such a beautiful fish who is eating very aggressively (even pellets!) just suddenly get "that look" again :( If that it is true, then it must be around the 4-6 month period since he was caught since that seems to be about how long cyanide fish last...hope I am wrong though.

i hope so too my copperband is my favorite fish id be so sad if he died suddenly:( i hope hes ok and that hes just being a strange fish for a bit :)

How long have you had him?

Same here, mine acted the same way the day before he died. I had him for 2 or 3 months, but the supplier had him for another 2 months before I did.

Ditto here as well:sad:

Sorry to hear that, I hope he pulls through.

This is weird.......I fed my copperband last night, he was eating and has been for the last 3-4 months. Very healthy looking. This morning i woke up, and he's struggling, and stuck to the powerhead. poor thing. This is my second attempt at a copperband. This one was doing fine. Then all of a sudden. Darn.

I figured there would be a lot of similar responses. Its kind of sad how many of these fish are cyanide caught and suddenly die one day once their organs (I believe its the liver) fail.

I have tried four now and will have to stop after this one. It had been a year since I last tried and this batch looked great, so I though why not...now I remember why.

Its not just copperbands unfortunately. I would love to try another imperator angel, but twice I've had the same issue. Its just so unfortunate and so sad.

Sorry to hear that. Yes the problem is certainly not just copperbands. It is often Philippine caught fish in general. Apparently the ones we do get shipped to us here are actually the tougher fish! The ones that can actually survive shipping.

I was told that after being collected, the fish are separated into what will be worth money and able to be shipped to North America, the ones that will make a shorter trip to Europe or other parts if Asia and then the "rejects" who all go to a wholesaler on the island. I am not sure what happens to these "weak" fish.

Wholesalers and stores here in North America really have no idea how the fish were caught overseas and have no way to ever claim they are no cyanide caught. Any store that does is either oblivious to the situation (and believe everything they are told) or lying ;)

thanks for posting up this info. Ever since the first time I read a sw book and saw a Copperband that has been my ultimate sw keeping goal - to keep a Copperband. Sounds like my goal might be a difficult one. I can't believe so many are lost. This is why many people put Copperbands on the "should not be imported" list, and tell people not to buy them so that collection and import is discouraged.

I lost one 3 or 4 weeks ago as well. Probably had him for 4ish months. He was eating and doing well then one day I got home from work and found him stuck to the powerhead. He was dead before bed. :sad:

A friend of mine has had his for 3 or 4 years though... must have got lucky. :biggrin:

geeeez, that's so sad. I hope he pulls through, for what it's worth. But sure sounds like you may be onto something. :(

I hate copperbands.
Had one, did EVERYTHING for it and it still died within 2 months.
I was so crushed and upset when I saw him doing the death swim

I have the same luck with yellow headed jawfish.

I hate to kill anything, and both of these fish have made me feel like they are well beyond my abilities, and that hurts almost more than the death itself.

That's interesting...I've had the same problem. I've lost two. One was DOA, and the other didn't last 12 hours.

i've had him for around a year give or take a few months

I too have tried them without success and will not try them again.
I think that the problem with them is collecting shipping and feeding.

Cyanide is used to catch fish that are hiding in the coral. For example all cryptic wrasse like 6 lines and leopards are cyanide caught because they are so difficult to get out of the coral rock. It is best to avoid them because we know they are cyanide caught.

Mandarins are the same except that some fishers are using a stick with a prong on it to catch them successfully.

This is an excellent thread because the posters are being candid about their experience. Many have tried several times.

Too often, like the recent posting on wrasse, the only reefers who comment on the post are the rare reefers that have success (for example with leopard wrasse.
I have not been successful and have tried a couple of times and the authors warn that these fish are difficult to keep alive.

We should try to post our own bad experience with very difficult fish as newbies are left with the wrong impression.

My record with fish (in general) over the past 15+ years has actually been pretty good. However, I failed in my one attempt to keep a Copperband. Mine refused to eat anything except mysis and just starved to death in about two weeks. This is not a fish I would recommend to anyone.

Since I am a newbie at the hobby, I had no idea that cyanide caught fish die months down the road. I know cyanide kills many that are cuaght as well as other marine life, but knowing this is depressing. When our new fish are settled into their new lives, they just die.

It is sad on a couple of levels... These poor fish survive being caught and shipped, have to adjust to prepared foods, a store and then its new home. The little guy is finally doing well and they die because of how they are caught.

Then there is the hobbist whom buys these fish, watches them with pride everyday, only to lose the poor thing... Money is an issue, but I HATE losing fish since they are my pets. The first few weeks are always tense but then I never really worry beyond that. I just finished adding all my livestock, only one is questionable in surviving since she won't eat, but everyone else is loving life. The Naso that I am worried about could have been exchanged for another fish, but I can't do that to her... Bringing her back would certainly kill her at this point. Now if I get through this with her, I can't feel safe for a very long time. At least I know about this now, since a fish up and dying is a personal failure to me.

I can see fish catchers (don't know what they are called) using cyanide in their best interest in knowing they will die down the road. This keeps money in their wallets, since the supply and demand will always be there. I would most certainly pay twice as much for a fish, naturally caught any day. However I would be pretty ticked off if the fish died six months down the road anyways for no real reason.

Thanks to greenspottedpuffer for posting about this, since I had no idea...

copperbands plain and simple do not do well in captivity the odd one that does is a very rare find i have kept a couple and every one has died with the same brain dead look about them the catching and selling of copperbands IMO should be banned and illegal worldwide the point is some creatures should not be kept captive the copperband cannot in most cases survive out of its natural habitat too much is not known about what they need to survive save a copperband do not buy them!

You are right on about posting bad experiences as well as good. People are being candid here and admitting they have tried several and failed.

To me the frustrating thing is that often times even once you get them eating, they die.

Unfortunately there is no way for us or LFS to know if they are cyanide caught until after death. Degeneration of the liver is the biggest problem. One of the reasons they may also be such picky eaters is that cyanide will kill off their gut flora which is harmed by contact with the chemical. From what I have read, this is irreversible.

Steve Robinson has been talking about cyanide caught fish for a few years now at MACNA and claims 2/3 of all marine tropical fish come from the Philippines and 3/4 of them are cyanide caught. Sodium cyanide tablets are apparently so easy to get now in some areas that its become easy for even collectors who in the past used nets because they had no access to cyanide. Now they simply crush the tablets into the water bottle and squirt the poison into coral heads or literally right into the fishes face. Respiratory is effected first and the fish are stunned. Collect whatever lives and move on. The ones who survive a few weeks come here and often die in our tanks. Perhaps copperbands just do not handle the poison as well as some other species.

The other problem with cyanide caught fish is that their immune system and central nervous systems are shot by the time they get here. So even if they do survive years, they can be very disease prone.

Of course the biggest problem is this:

"A square metre of reef is destroyed for every live fish caught using cyanide," says biologist Sam Mamauag of the International Marinelife Alliance (IMA) in the Philippines.

Sad.:sad:

Not trying to put the hobby down or anything but makes me wonder if I would have ever got into marine fishkeeping if I knew how many fish died for me to have just one specimen or how badly the reefs are destroyed for my pleasure...

I may have stayed freshwater. Its very discouraging.

wow... i have mine for a year now and he has the most personality and is my favorite fish in my tank. i knew they were hard to get eating but i had no idea they were this hard to keep. i feel bad about all this now and wish there was something i could do to help. i guess i will just have to make sure my copperband is kept alive and healthy and just be happy at how lucky i am. thanks for this thread it really got me thinking about other aspects of this hobby

If its a year then I would say its either not cyanide caught, came in contact with very little cyanide or is just one strong fish.

I am still hoping mine will pull through. He is still eating and swimming around but he looks quite dazed and not very responsive.

awesome that makes me pretty happy then id be sad if i lost that guy :)

I agreed, it is very discouraging !

There is one thing we can all do and that is this.
When someone posts concerning a known difficult to keep species, we all can post a short warning concerning our experiences and in this way avoid newbies from repeating our mistakes.

Local fisherman protect their reefs because it is thier livelihood. The problem is roving 'fisherman' that use cyanide for short term gain without any regard for the damage they are doing to the reefs and the critters that live therein.

That's some sobering statistics. It makes me think that indeed the importation of wild-caught fish needs to end altogether. That's simply unsustainable practise. :(

My CBB is now about 2 years old. I would have to say that the people who are beating themselves up in this thread should not do so, I don't think the problem was your "skills" per se but something further up the retail chain. I didn't realize how horrid the hit to miss ratio was with this fish, I just picked up a small guy one day at the LFS. Very picky eater but is easy enough to satiate with a few staples such as mysis, aiptasia (I let them run rampant in one tank so I can move rocks over once in a while), and grocery store shellfish. Unfortunately everyone loves mussels and oysters so it's hard to make sure he gets enough, I stick it in a narrow crevasse that only he can fit in and so on. Anyhow point being I don't think I do anything special and I don't consider my husbandry at a level any better than anyone else. I think the source must be a factor here.

Anyhow sorry to hear how bad it really is out there. Does make me have some second thoughts about what impact the hobby is having.

I agree. If people at least think twice about fish like Copperbands, it can help. The problem is not going to be solved at the collection end but can be addressed at the demand end. If people don't want copperbands, they loose their value.

I really hope one day many of these fish can be captive bred. I have heard of some programs that have that goal but have no idea how far along they are. Some of them use protected areas of the ocean (like some of the aquacultured LR suppliers) and some in giant tanks. Either way, it would be nice to head towards a healthier, environmentally friendly hobby.

We can do our part by buying farm raised fish whereever possible. ie seahorses, clowns, regal tangs, pseudochromis, bangaii etc.

A closure of the fishery will mean tragic economic loss to the legitimate fishers which depend on our hobby to feed themselves.

If we stop buying known cyanide caught fish, the problem goes away because the bad guys have nothing to sell.

Well said!

But if we have no proof that its cyanide caught or not. How can we quit buying them??? I for one will not, to the best of my knowledge, buy cyanide caught fish. But, even with a "stamp of approval" how can one be 100% sure, unless we start drug testing every fish?

Thats the problem and actually drug testing will not show anything. The cyanide does not stay in the fish long. By the time they are in the wholesalers tanks, the cyanide is gone. Cyanide is not something that keeps degrading a fish over time. It does its damage and then is expelled. The problem is that it does a lot of damage quickly that is irreversible. There is only so long a fish can survive without gut fauna or a working liver. This is why they generally will die between 4-6 months. I think some who come in less direct contact with the cyanide have a better chance obviously and do survive.

After a fish dies, it can be tested but it involves very expensive lab equipment, a lot of knowledge and putting the fish in a blender. Not something most LFS or most of us will ever do.

Officials in Hong Kong were trying to test for cyanide in groupers imported for food but it never worked out. Its thought that they didn't actually care anyways since the cyanide is not in the fishes system by the time it is eaten but they wanted to "look good" by testing. One of the big wholesalers of coral trout (for food) in Hong Kong even publicly said he did not care whether the fish were cyanide caught or not because the poison was gone before people ate them--kind of missed the point :)

I believe live fish are worth 4-5 times the amount of dead (whether for food or the hobby) so there is a big incentive for collectors...the problem is, with nets it can take all day to catch two coral trout (groupers) of the right size but with cyanide they can catch dozens and with little effort/cost. I know with large groupers they will scare them into the rocks and then squirt a bunch of cyanide into their face and simply pull them back out of the rocks. Unfortunately the size that is preferred for eating is right when the fish is becoming sexually active.

I've had my 1st CBB for a year and a half now he eats mysis and keeps my tank aptasia free. I bought a second one (in hopes of saving it) from a not so great source and he died two days later. I bought another one and he was eating mysis and was doing very well for a little over a month and then one day I never saw him again :sad: I guess he died and the bristle worms ate him, but I still don't know for sure what ever happened to him, just that he disappeared.

I will honestly admit that even though I know they have a poor survival rate I do plan on getting one for my other 230g. The CBB's eat aptasia and I hate the look of aptasia and therefor I will always try to keep one in my tanks. I will do my best to pick out a healthy one and I will not buy one that isn't already eating, and if I even remotely think it's cyanide caught forget it, but other then that...

Anyone ever noticed a dark spot on their CCB before it died? I have seen this in a previous one and now in this little guy. Its kind of a darker area (easy to see on the white) about half way down this body. Its under the skin and almost looks like something inside him ruptured.

Oh and he is "swimming" upside down and sideways today :cry:

Thank you for being honest relative to your intention to attempt a fourth CBB.
May I suggest instead of risking a likely 3rd fatality you put in 3 peppermint shrimp (providing you are not planning on putting in something that will eat them). Although, like CBB, every peppermint will not necessarily eat aptasia, I guarantee you one of the 3 will.

I can't use peppermint shrimp since it is the tank that my angelfish are going into. I thought about a raccoon butterfly but I read that they are less likely to eat aptasia and have just as poor of a survival rate. Also I had a 30g before in the past with 8 peppermint shrimp in it (figured if I bought all 8 of them at least one of them would eat aptasia) unfortunately not one of them ate aptasia :twised:

I haven't noticed any spots before, sorry to hear your CBB isn't doing well.

GSP...can you grab a picture of it if possible?? Whereabouts on the body is the spot located??