Everyones an expert
 

I was over on the bc aquaria web site,there was a guy asking how to get rid of algae/cyano. Two seperate people told him there wasnt enough Phosphate/nitrate in his water and thats where his problem is,their solution add more fish lol. What causes someone to offer an opinion on something they know nothing about I wonder? Poor guy was also doing tap water changes to try to get rid of it based on someones advice. Crazy,I dont think he believed me that the detrious was the cause of his problem not the solution.

I guess it's why its called personal advise. In the end ones opinions will play into what that person writes. Those people that said that there was not enough phosphate/nitrate may have added another fish to their tank when they had the problem and had their algae go away. (in reality the changes probably occured because they could have a algae eating fish, the new fish could have been helping to aleviate over feeding that was occuring and hence leftover food no longer staying in the tank, or it could have even been the end of the cycling of the tank).
I like seeing many opinions before I make a decison so that hopefully the majority is right.
Just think, if the guy does not believe you now maybe he will later, when he does what the others told him and his problem gets worse.

That's the cautions of the internet (and other media), it's just opinions. Some are based on experience, others from who knows where.

As for cyano, can't forget about flow and it's effects.

If it was a freshwater plant tank then the advice to supplement nitrate to get rid of cyanobacteria is 100% correct. This is just my opinion from quite a few years of running FW plant tanks, cyano (at least in FW plant tanks) can fix nitrogen in the form of dissolved N2 and therefore can out-compete plants when nitrates are low. I agree with the original poster's statement that people should not offer an opinion on something they know nothing about, we just disagree about who those people are.

Ive been keeping fresh water for a loooong time allways cured cyano (green) by adding carbon. The only way I can see adding more nitrate helping would be it would increase the number of beneficial bacteria but that could take up to a full cycle. Are you not just fueling the cyano in the mean time?

I realise that there are many opinions as far as fishkeeping goes,but every piece of literature I've ever read aswell as my personal experiences say phosphate and nitrate are the cause of cyano not the cure and overstocking your tank will lead to ammonia build up and a palethera of algaes and cyano's Where are you getting this from that nitrate is a cure for cyano I'm wondering?

Dude I keep fresh water planted tanks for 12 years and have scientific facts to prove me right. Show me your data,you seriouslly believe that overstocking a tank will cure cyano? better yet do you believe this is best way to go about it? Believe me if I didnt know what I was talking about I wouldnt say a damn thing.
Are you saying im wrong?

dabandit, while i agree that people who have no idea what they are talking about shouldn't talk, you are currently shooting yourself in the foot. There are quite a few cyanobacteria species that are known as nitrogen fixers. At low levels of nitrogen (at normal phosphorus levels), usually in the form of nitrate for obvious reasons, nitrogen fixers outcompete other algal species in natural settings. This is what Ive learned from my university limnology class... there's plenty of scientific papers detailing this mechanism if you're willing to look for it. Granted that in captive systems, all bets are off, because our systems only emulate nature in the barest of degrees. is the best way to stock more (but not overstock... i dont think that's what he meant)? maybe, maybe not, but there's merit to it at least.

edit: "are you saying im wrong?" now who's the expert? :)

What's with this guy? It seems pretty obvious who thinks he's an expert. Lets see your data Mr. Expert.

You are arguing about something that was started on another forum. This whole above statement seems very abrasive for an issue that originated from somewhere else. One of the main reasons I stick to this forum is the friendly atmosphere on here. I don't see the merit in carrying over or trying to start a fight on here.

It sounds like you let the person know what you thought on the other site (which is fine) but now it seems like you're trying to get others on this forum to validate your opinion. Everyone has different opinions and everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's one thing to politely state your opinion but it's another to try to force your opinion on others. While it's nice to be validated not everyone is going to agree with what you have to say. Please be willing to except that fact and allow yourself to move on.

Sorry if my post was a little obnoxious, sometimes when I am tired and have a headache I can be an ornery bastard. Now that I have had my workout I feel more human.

I don't have any science to back me up. I have advice from experts and personal experience.

In the past whenever I have had cyanobacteria issues (in a freshwater planted tank) one of the main causes has been low to zero nitrates and the cure has been either supplement nitrates or increase feeding. Depending on the light and CO2 levels, a nitrate level of 5 ppm to 20 ppm is the general consensus target.

The other major contributor to freshwater cyanobacteria from my experience has been low flow.

Erythromycin is a quick cure but the cyano comes back if the root causes (low nitrate and stagnant flow areas) are not addressed.

Most experienced plant people, and in particular Tom Barr who is generally recognized as a FW plant expert, do not feel that elevated nitrates or elevated phosphates will cause algae, as long as light, CO2, flow, macronutrients and micronutrients are all available. That has been my experience too.

Anyway the fundamental issue is, on a discussion forum people should discuss, if someone wants to claim this or that additive will cure algae, fine with me, discuss it and debate it and in the end we will find the truth, with a lot of zigs and zags along the way.

Personally, your post wasn't the obnoxious one.

ahaha I love it... here we go again with the "are you calling me a liar? Like seriously dude I've been on this earth for 12 years I think I know what I'm talking about, and if you don't believe me ask my dad." ahahah

The 12 year old: Are you calling me a liar?

Other person: I don't know... are you calling me a liar?

The 12 year old: I wouldn't say anything if I didn't think it was right

Other Person: Ditto

The 12 year old: I have scientific facts

Other person: Ditto

The 12 year old: Show me your facts

Other person: Ditto

I mean if you want to argue at the very least try and go about it in a more productive way... just because you threaten someone with the terrible idea of calling you a liar your point isn't anymore proven.

And if you want to get technical... when people disagree they are technically calling you a liar and the are calling you wrong... get over it and carry on the discussion so you, or possibly they, can learn something.

Interesting. OK, just for fun and my self learning, I did some Googling.


http://www.environmentalleverage.com...nobacteria.htm

"The presence of large amounts of tetrads or Cyanobacteria in a wastewater treatment system can indicate a severe nutrient deficiency, typically nitrogen."
"Tetrads and cyanobacteria are usually found in environments where there are low levels of nitrogen present. "
" Usually increasing nitrogen levels in the influent often causes them to disappear quite quickly as opposed to adding high levels of polymer to try to drop them out. "
"Low nutrient levels and high BOD are usually the cause of tetrads and cyanobacteria. Ammonia should be increased in the influent and usually with a little bit of time they disappear."

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1151820

"Nitrate and Phosphate Affect Cultivability of Cyanobacteria from Environments with Low Nutrient Levels

Nitrate and phosphate concentrations higher than those found in the natural environment slowed down growth of two strains of non-bloom-forming, phycoerythrin-rich Synechococcus spp. isolated from mesotrophic subalpine lakes.

For both strains, high initial nitrate and phosphate concentrations delayed growth. "


http://gwapa.org/wordpress/articles/...-aquarium/#bga

"Causes:

Low nitrates - Usually present when all of the nitrogen/nitrate has been removed from the water column. While this is a triggering condition, it is also exacerbated by the bacteria itself using any remaining nitrogen.

Cures:

Increase nitrates - Dose nitrates until the concentration reaches ~5ppm. "


http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm

"Cause Often caused by very low nitrates. It is fairly common to have it growing in the substrate against the front glass from where it can spread. "

"Removal A blackout is the best method for this. Clean out as much of the algae as you can and do a 30 to 50% water change. If your nitrates are low then add some potassium nitrate to get levels to 20ppm. "

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com...aquariums.html

"To protect the Nitrogenase from oxygen, many nitrogen-capturing Cyanobacteria (usually of the filamentous variety) have developed special nitrogen-fixing cells called Heterocysts encased in thickened cell walls. Because of this ability, low nitrate levels are generally not the key to stopping this plague."


http://www.aquatic-eden.com/2006/10/...algae-bga.html

"Causes: Low nitrate levels (NO3), "dead spots" of low water circulation, organic waste build-up
Prevention: Dose nitrates (NO3), add powerheads to aid circulation, frequent water changes and do not over-feed"

"Since it can fix its own nitrogen, a lack of nitrates gives it an advantage over plants. If nitrates are not high enough, it will quickly find a dead spot to start a colony and begin growing extremely rapidly."

http://www.bioremediate.com/algae.htm

"Nitrogen fixation is the process of converting unusable nitrogen (atmospheric nitrogen) into usable nitrogen (ammonia). This characteristic allows these species to exist in areas where low nitrogen availability inhibits growth. Therefore, under phosphorus-rich conditions, when nitrogen may be limited, blue-green cyanobacteria algae have a competitive advantage because they can utilize ("fix") nitrogen directly. "

Really? Which thread was this? I couldn't find it when I searched. The cyano threads I saw recommended the reefer needed to reduce nutrients like phosphates and were likely caused by over feeding & nutrient buildup? Please pm me the link so I can check it out.

Anthony

It was a thread about freshwater cyano; and i didn't see anyone recommending adding phosphate. Basically, I saw 2 posters mentioning that low nitrate is one possible cause of cyano. In addition, one of the 2 guys mentioned that frequent water changes (i assume with tap water) made it worse for him. Seems reasonable. BTW: both posters who suggested that low nitrates are a possible cause of cyano are also Canreefers. :)

Yes, and dabandit, if you read the sw thread about cyano & algae, the advice there was pretty much correct, as in having to remove the excess nutrients (ie. using Phosban reactor to treat the symptom) & finding the source of those excess nutrients (to treat the cause).

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/showt...ighlight=cyano

Here's the thread I'm talking about.

Dude, I've been keeping fish for over 30+ years (fw since 1976 & sw since 1984) and I have 9 years at UBC studying aquaculture. Yet, I still don't know everything about fish.

Fish-keeping is still as much an art as it is a science.

What works for one, may not work for another. Telling people that they are idiots because they don't agree with you is not necessarily a good way to convince someone. As others have mentioned on this thread, there are several varieties of cyanobacteria, algae & other similar organisms. Some do great under one set of parameters (ie. low Nitrogen) while others need different parameters to bloom (ie. high nutrient levels). Therefore, what might stop the problem in one person's tank may not help in someone elses, simply because its a different strain of cyano.

While many reefers use RODI for their tanks, almost no fw aquarist does. Especially for planted tanks, since serious planted tank keepers add all sorts of fertilizers, CO2, etc. to their systems to help the plants thrive under high light. I keep both fw & sw & have only ever made RODI water for my reef tanks, never for my fw tanks. Don't even know anybody locally who uses it for their fw or fw planted tanks & I know a lot of local aquarists. I can see it helping in areas that use well water or the water is very alkaline & they need soft or neutral water for their fw tanks, but I'm not sure whether Victoria's water supply (where the OP is from) is bad enough to require RODI.

Just wondering if you use RODI water on your planted tanks in Surrey, since that's what you're recommending for the OP? I find it enough of a PITA making enough RODI water for my sw, let alone bothering with it for the fw tanks. Surrey's on that water metering system now so that must get expensive with all that wastewater produced by the filtration system. Wasting water is one major drawback of using RODI.

Peace,

Anthony

Wow. Ok first no I never used ro/di on a freshwater planted tank except while successfully curing cyano.
Second the suggestion he had made was to overstock his tank surelly in all of EVERYONES vast experience this increases amonia to a lethal level in freshwater.
Do you really think overstocking your bio load is a better cure for a newbie than simplly cleaning your tank and running carbon,a perfectlly safe method which many have had success with including myself.

And lastlly I did'nt say that fella was calling me a liar,merelly answering to the fact that I do infact have a clue what I'm talking about.


Hey maybe overstocking can work, perhaps I'm wrong about that,I can admit sure. But I still dont think its a practical approach particularilly for a beginner when a perfectlly safe tried and true method works.

Take a deep breath.....

Where are you getting this? I'm asking if he thinks my method is wrong,and asking for his info so that I can learn. I was also offering to give my info if he wanted. The problem with the internet is you can interpret me anyway you want,I'm pretty sure your taking me the wrong way. I don't know why I bother.
P.S I'm a grown man lol

I LOVE IT. hmmm what oh i have been swimming in raw sewage all day "I LOVE IT"

LT frank Drebin. :mrgreen:

Dont take my word for it heres a link. Im not saying adding the nitrate is wrong I am saying overstocking is wrong for obvious reasons I cant believe any of you are arguing this.You want more info telling you there is a safer way just let me know.http://en.allexperts.com/q/freshwate...ted-tank-1.htm oops crappy link,type cyano into the sites search bar should be the first one that comes up,experts name is Nick.

Cheers

All research i've read says that though cyano can convert it needs to be in a phosphorus rich environment. Like I said remove phosphates/nitrates problem solved remove detrious/increase flow problem stays gone. I'm not trying to start a ****ing contest here just defending my statements. Are these facts not true,they came from your data? Maybe Im reading this wrong

I think the issue is that you accused people of things they didn't do. No one gave advice to overstock the tank and no one gave advice to add phosphates and no one gave advice to use tap water. Yet you are accusing people of that. Here are the posts from the other thread that you are arguing about. The claims that you made about what people said (overstock a tank, add phosphate, use tap water) are not found in these posts and in the thread. And I don't think anyone actually said to add nitrate. They simply made a statement about what is one possible cause of cyano (low nitrate). I think the posts were fairly responsible actually.

The problem with the advice dished out on that thread is not that it is wrong exactly but that it is fragmentary and therefore open to bad interpretation. This guys problem isn't really that he has too little nitrate, it is that he has to little nitrogen relative to the amount of phosphate, as made clear in samw's google results. You can fix this problem by either increasing nitrogen (nitrate or ammonia) or decreasing phosphate to get back to a good balance for plant growth. The plants will out compete the cyano and it will die, I imagine everyone can agree that is true.

The problem with I find with internet posts is often the brevity, this is what leads to the bad interpretations. Poster A says "I heard somewhere that you have to increase nitrate". Advice seeker says "How"? Poster B says "Add more fish". = Bad advice.

IMO, it all goes back to the first couple of posts usually. You get a quick put poorly explained bit of info and even if it is technically correct you then get a stampede of supposition and bad interpretation. I think if people took more time with their posts and made an effort to explain things more fully we'd avoid a lot of this stuff.

I don't mean to attack the community for the way we do things either. I dish out aquarium advice for a living, nobody knows better than me that it can be difficult to do well. If somebody came in and asked me this question I could easily spend 20 minutes talking about macro nutrients and the N:P:K balance and it's a comparatively simple subject. This would lead them to walking away shaking their head and maybe retaining a tenth of what I had to say. That would also amount to bad advice and it's something I tend to do sometimes.

Your info isn't wrong it's just incomplete.

Sure those two arent bad,now wheres the ones I was talking about lol? I believe there was over 30 posts in that thread. Two of which said add more fish and at least one said do more water changes,infact the post you have highlighted was a response to the guy who said do more waterchanges. I've been talking via pm's also on that site. So no the issue isnt me accusing people of saying things they didnt. The issue is people like you getting off the issue and turning this into a friggin competion. I have yet to hear someone say that I'm wrong or that theres is the BEST,SAFEST method for a beginner to try period

Oh, so I'm the problem now. I thought the issue was about people giving bad advice which if it didn't occur, can't be the issue. Maybe I read the wrong thread. Are we talking about this one?

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16159

We can't read what advice was sent to your PM's so all we have to go by is what's in that thread.

.

FYI the fishAholic that Samw pulled a quote from, from the other forum is not me. I know no one said it was, but just in case you were wondering. Besides I'm fishOholic :wink:

dabandit, you need to realize that when it comes to forums you have the same credibility as the rest of us which is basically nothing. Continuous good behavior and reputable posts may increase this slightly but only to those that notice. Acting childish and defensive will have the opposite effect.

It's one thing to give your opinion and continue to back it with useful information but instantly turning blatantly defensive, not stating anymore information, and simply saying you have scientific facts or data will never help your argument here or likely on any other forum.

If I knew nothing about cyano and was using this thread for information I would personally disregard everything you said. In the end if false information is provided the majority will disagree and just because something does or doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it will do the same for someone else.

If you still disagree maybe try RC, maybe people will side with you there :razz:

I give up. I've offered facts and opinions trying to show people there is a safer equally effective way. Now I look like a childish idiot chasing my tail answering posts that have nothing to do with anything. Enough!!!! anyone acctually wants to talk about the topic come find me.

[quote=sphelps;365580]dabandit, you need to realize that when it comes to forums you have the same credibility as the rest of us which is basically nothing. Continuous good behavior and reputable posts may increase this slightly but only to those that notice. Acting childish and defensive will have the opposite effect.

It's one thing to give your opinion and continue to back it with useful information but instantly turning blatantly defensive, not stating anymore information, and simply saying you have scientific facts or data will never help your argument here or likely on any other forum.

If I knew nothing about cyano and was using this thread for information I would personally disregard everything you said. In the end if false information is provided the majority will disagree and just because something does or doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it will do the same for someone else.



Did you see the link I posted? did you see me asking for someone to show what they mean? did you notice I read their links and responded? stop the friggin drama and get back on topic.

"sigh"