when are we going to have a
 

25 to 33 gal tank contest?

Steve

Hopefully never,

I dont need anymore tanks. :biggrin:

oh come on, sure you do :mrgreen: We'll have a friendly one, no money for entering, just bragging rights. and no silly price lists, what you pay is what it costs, but no recycling major equipment.

Steve

I'm pretty sure I've got an empty 33g just iching to be filled again.

I think idealy it would be a 1 year long contest, with no water for the first 6 months. this would allow people to take there time and build/buy something that they actualy want and realy like.

Steve

Make it 15g -33g and I am in.:biggrin:

Cool, I have a drilled 20 gallon tank /CSS-65/Rock/Sand/Spare 400W Pendent all sitting around. When do you want to start? 20 minutes? :mrgreen:

What does this mean??

If you're looking to eliminate pricing disputes like those seen in the current nano contest then the only way I see that being possible is to eliminate the budget completely. Believe it or not the price list actually prevents many disputes, if contenders were allowed to use any price things would probably be way worse.

Constraints shouldn't be placed on variables like prices, apply constraints on constants like total water volume and things will go much smoother.

Also I think entry fees and prizes are a good thing, it will keep contenders interested and more likely to see the contest through to the end. Otherwise you'll have many contenders and very few finalists.

Good points that I agree with them, especially the fact that prizes do help keep interest going. Lessons learned from the past contest should be taken into account. If this contest does get started, I'm thinking maybe it should be started after Christmas.

all I am looking at is that the prices that are listed are not realistic, there is no way some one could get thoes prices on the island.

The purpose of your contest was to set up a tank for XXX.XX not one of thoes tanks I have seen could be done for that amount honestly. why arn't you adding in the costs of the tank, stand ect.. that is the most expensive part if you do it nice and is probably one of the bigest factors on the end result.

I am building anyways, thought it might be interesting to see some one build a simular size and see how a few tanks can be built in a specific size range and the differances in cost to build them.

I am not going after what can you do for 300.00 or what ever, I want to do something that is a quality setup for the long haul. I also want to see how different people handle there equipment and the desisions they make on what there going all out on, what there doing themselves, and what there making do with.

I do agree that there has to be something to prevent rich people (which I am definatly not one of) from going out and just getting a turn key package, so maybe some rules on stuff you have to do yourself, like you have to make your own stand. Cannot start with a reef ready tank, ect..

that is the reason I was thinking of 6 months befor you even have to have water in it to give pour people time to save for what they want to do and to allow time for other people to clean out there garage to a point where they can actualy build there stand hehe

for prises maybe we could get something from the sponcers? have a few different prises like one for best build, where the reward could be a gift certificat for live stock or rock, then after the water is in and the tanks have aged there could be a vote for nicest overall, maby a couple different catagories for price range, ect....

wouldent be to hard to set up a contest with some restrictions to controle the builds, and then make it into 3 catagories, 2000 and under, 2001.00-3000.00 and 3K and up.

anyways I am going to go dig out my glass cutter and try take a bit off the back of one of the 27 gal tanks I have... wish me luck

Steve

Sorry Steve but I do take offense to this. I have built my tank for the XXX.XX dollars, my stand was all of 41.00 and my tank was 16.00. Questioning the integrity of the people in the contest on their honesty is probably not what you meant...but it's how I took it.

The reason that we don't include those costs is we were following the same build idea as done by Nano-reef.

you see what I mean, contest hasn't even started and already some disputes about pricing, the only way to eliminate these is to eliminate the budget. People can always post their costs for those who are curious. Spending a lot of money does not mean you'll have a nice tank, I think we can all agree on that.

nope not questioning any integrity here, I haven't seen your tank stand at all, I know when I do a stand here is no way I can do it cheep unless I use stuff I have around the house. ther eis the cost of glue, screws/nails, hardware, wood, and stain/paint, then paint supplies, brush, filler, ect...

I am bad for not accounting for stuff I have laying around.. I built a stand a while ago that I figures I did for 60.00. when I added up everything it was realy about 150.00

Now you guys don't have to account for that stuff in your contest which is good for you as if you had stuff laying around the house you used then bonus.

but I was refuring to the pricing on livestock, it is dirt cheep compared to what I see in stores down here. for example sand and live rick is free, so 10lbs of live rock and sand will be about 100.00 there is 1/3 of the 10g budgit gone if it was not free. acessories less than 15.00 free, so you add a magfloat, thermomitor, tongs ect and you could realistickly be at another 50 to 70 bucks. water, there is 10 bucks if you buy it.
a heater 30 to 50 bucks. I am at 230 now, so a tank we'll use your numbers 16, and wood for the stand 41, so now were at 287.00 still need some sort of pump for water flow..

you see what I am getting at.. I have seen some stands that probably are pushing 100 to 200.00 when all is said and done, they are neat and interesting but heck I could spend 600 bucks easy on a little stand and it would be out of this world and and it would have a huge impact on the finnished product.

Yeap I agree, this is exactly my point. Prices for everything especially livestock is extremely variable, one person will pay more for the same item as someone else in a different location. In addition very similar items can have very different prices even in the same location. This is the reasoning for the price list to produce a constant and keep things fair. Yes some things are way off either too low or too high and somethings are good. Best solution is to eliminate the variable and apply the contest constraints on true constants.

Also the fact that a stand adds integrity is a matter of opinion. For instance I don't even have a stand and feel livestock is more important.

yours is on a desk, kinda nice on its own. what I meen by this is that lets say I slap togeather a stand out of 2X4s and put some cheep plywood on it and leave it unfinnished (kinda like what you would do for a frag tank.
then I do one that is out of oak and stained with lots of router work and raised pannel doors, as long as it doesn't overpower the tank it is definatly going to cause the overall opinion of the set up to be nicer.

Steve

Dont know how i missed this thread till now, but i just got finished putting rock in my 25G like 3 min ago. :mrgreen:

To continue on topic the price list is a must. you have to have conformity in pricing live stock. if you think the list we are currently using is to low priced then up it next time around, but it IS nessasary in order to keep all people happy.

if this is all about the prices for 20-33 gallons contest, personally i wouldn't want a budget under 1000 dollars. like i'm working on my 29 gallon and i've already spent alot. i spent alot on good quality stuff,and isnt that what you want when you start a reef? basicaly what im saying is making a contest like that wouldn't be the best, because you would need a big budget if people made it a tank they want to keep for a long time

Go
 

Why instead of setting up a limit on budget, set a limit on other things such as:

Ammount of LR/LBS
Ammount of Substrate/LBS
Ammount of Inverts
Ammount of Fish
Ammount of Corals / Category ( SPS, etc.. )

Like others have said, the limit on the price is something that doesn't regulate properly due to a huge variation. If price "needs" to be taken into consideration, then a big enough buffer needs to be established to take into consideration in order for a decent tank to be created in a city where things are expensive.

Why should a contest's motivation/bottleneck be people trying to find the cheapest possible second-hand hardware/livestock VS. being creative with the things that they could possibly achieve when creating a tank in a certain category?
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I like your breakdown, this allows for some uniformity in all the tanks, but gives room for plenty of creativity.

You mean like Ryan's? Who finished in a close second in the latest popularity poll. I don't think too many people are concerned about the stand, after all it's a tank contest not a stand contest. A stand is a nice feature and certainly adds to the tank but not so much in this kind of contest.

I'm not sure I really see the point in a limited budget. To keep rich people out seems like a silly reason and even a little offensive. I think anyone should be able to enter and if someone wants to spend the money on an AIO or reef ready setup why not let them? I don't see an advantage in that, after all not everyone is super DIY handy so why put them at a disadvantage? One could say the same about DIY projects, handy people have just as much of an advantage.

like Ryan's what? Stand? no I was talking about one I made for a frag tank.

Someone who can only by frags as opposed to someone who buys huge colonies, well...limit the contest to frag size only or something. If you have money you can make a tank look good. simple as that. Look at the japanese tanks where as soon as the coral looks bad they remove and put in another, it always LOOKS good, but there is no sustainability. I'm not saying that all japanese tanks are like that.
I agree with the DIY aspect as well. But agian, I have seen rich and poor with absolutely no sense of the aesthetic so...make a contest with multiple categories, best stock nano, best diy, best aquascape, best frag, best colony, best softy, best overall...whatever. Competition is not a good thing anyway...it makes a poor society :)

Hey now, lets leave me out of this argument. :lol:

Seriously now, I think that if you guys want to do a contest with a budget thats over 1k, you wont get many people. Unless of course they wanted to set the tank up conveniently at the time the contest was starting. I had no intention of starting up a 10g ever, but the contest intrigued me. I also like the fact that its somewhat on a budget as I dont have oodles of cash to throw around.

As for the nano contest and the budget how it is.... Its not the best, but this is the first contest(and I have the feeling the only one) so things might not be perfect. There is so much bitching involved in everything having to do with this contest (and any ideas of contests) that I think it really deters and will deter people from entering any future ones.

In conclusion, I cant believe this has last 3 pages. I thought the OP was joking when he posted the question due to how much arguing happens in the 10g Contest.

Oh and PS, I dont think anybody cares what the stands really look like. Its all whats in the tank and the tank itself. I dont think too many people are judging me on my living room decore and furniture?

This is funny... Contest hasn't even been started and there are disagreements already. :lol:

I think alot of things got ironed out *roughly* in the 10G contest, and really, there shouldn't be much argueing between now and the end.. That I can forsee. :wink:

Ok I can't let this go anymore :lol: I was Joking, It would be neet to see how many people are building tanks in this size range and how they are doing things, but I am plugging along on my own as you saw by the posts in my other thread.

But now it has been interesting to see the different opinions on how a contest should be run

Steve

Might as well just get everyone on canreef to post a picture right now and have a vote

And force those who want to get the tank established quickly to wait?? I don't get why we would make rules on when people can have water?? Factors like that change with the person and effect the result. People who rush getting water in could have way more growth in a year... others who like to take there time and plan might have a better design but a tank that is less filled out.

I agree... people already have a hard time posting pictures at the right time when there is prizes and they've paid... if you remove these it'll just get random and too hard to actually track the contest with out it essentially just turning into tank journal threads

I think that was the idea... to have the prices the same for everyone to even the playing field. That way if your in a place with 20 lfs or 1 lfs you all get "the same pricing." They probably could have been a little more realistic but I don't think that was the main goal?? <<< but just because I understand the function of the current price list does not mean I think it's the best way to go about it.

I think it was because everyone would be deducting almost the same amount for the tank, sand, rock etc. I mean we could include all those prices but like you said...the budget couldn't be $395 but it would increase by essentially the same amount for everyone... I mean how much of a difference are you going to pay for rock in a ten gallon?? tank $20, sand $10, rock $80, magnet cleaner $14, thermometer $10 etc. = $134 ok so the Budget is now $529 and everyone is at ____ + $134. Everyone knows the tank cost money but do we really need to include it in the budget when they're all the same?? Plus the the budget should not be the main focus... it's there to kinda help keep things even but it's not the focus so why would it matter if common factors are removed... I guess this is all coming down to how you view the function of the budget??

Sounds like your catering the contest to what you think is best for you?? That's life... some people have more money. You can't discriminate because they do... then your just leaving them at a disadvantage because you don't like what life handed you... but hey if it handed you money and not diy skills tough luck guess you can't play??

Same deal sounds like your catering the contest to your needs... my garage is clean... but hey I'll wait 6 months to put water in because you need to clean your work space??


Agreed.... there should be general guidelines on what amounts you can have... prices should have to be posted in detail but there should be no limit on the budget. If people want to vote for a tank because it's the nicest for the money spent fine!

The way I see it there should be rules (picture post requirements etc.), entry fees, there should be prizes, there should be general guidelines on quantities allow to keep the tanks in the same field, but other than that you should just have to post ALL of your prices. If someone has more money so what that's life... we want to restrict what people spend to have the illusion that we can make the nicest tank?? It's a hobby that cost A LOT of money and the more you have the nicer your tank CAN be... but it still takes more than money. Just my $1.52

ahah got me... I was like are you kidding me... this is going to get so ridiculous:lol:

contest, schmontest

What about categories?
 

I have seen a few serious competitions where points are awarded for different things and the "total" is what wins at the end of the day.

So instead of having a budget limit, frag limit, etc.
What about 0-10 points being awarded for each of "budget, aquascape, coral/livestock, equipment design and originality".

That way, if you spend more, you might get nice colonies, but you'll lose points for being more expensive. This way you would get a balance between how nice a tank looks, and the expense for it. It seems most of the debate on the budget stuff is about bang-for-buck. This way everyone gets to play. I would rather attempt to do a tank for a few hundred and see how much/nice I can get it. But, I don't want to go head to head with someone that just blew $3000 on a 33 gal tank. Of course it will look better. I think the contest should partially about "bank-for-buck", but spend whatever you want.

With that being said, my artistic talent are horrible. And I think it should only be fair that those that have an imagination get "points" for it as well.

There, that is my "morning, and coffee hasn't kicked in yet" rant :lol:

I like the point system idea. I would add to it by suggesting points are awarded for different categories by different groups of 3 or 4 judges. Each group of judges gets assigned one category and awards points to each contender based on the criteria that particular group of judges agree upon. Judges would remain anonymous until the end of the contest.

Ya a point system in multiple catagories would seem fair, I was thinking something like having the most expensive tank be worth the least amount of points for the expense budget and the least expensive tank being worth the most points in the expense budget. Then all the other tanks would get points based on where their costs fit inbetween the two tanks.

Yeap but I think the judges of that particular category should have the final say on how points are distributed. It may be more involved, one contenders budget may be lower due to location among other factors.

I think that the regional difference in price isn't going to matter much in the end. With a point's approach and no limits on the budget, honesty is only "mostly" needed in the list price. Heck, if nobody would want to post costs, they won't have too. Anyone that is a judge would know that you didn't get a 250watt halide setup for $10. And they would award points based on that.

For example, I have a 600 gph pump from my old 90 Gal, that I don't even know who makes it, let alone what it is worth. I can use it, put down a guess at it's value and carry on. Same for the leftover crushed coral, frags that I have etc.


The final budget goes from a challenge to get in budget, and more of a list that says "You could build this tank for $XXX" . With that said, you would list what it would cost someone to obtain or buy new the parts, rather than what you paid for it. This means that stuff that we ALL have laying around doesn't need to be included (screws, pcv solvent, glue, bit of glass or plexi) or stuff that you can salvage for free or would already have normally.

I personally would be more of a -- you could copy my design and I think it would cost you $XXX, and it really cost me $YYY because of freebies, frags or spare parts. And if I lie REALLY BAD, any one here would know better, and probably strike points away for the REALLY BAD LIE!

With points, you get away from any silly technicalities, and rely on the common sense of the judges. Almost no rules, just fun!

As for prizes -- As I already have a tank that drives my wife nuts(210gal), so I *might* do this for the fun of it -- and then offload the tank and such. So most of my tank would be made of frags from my existing tank. so, what about if a few people offered the coral from the tanks (If you are shutting it down) as a prize/entry fee?

I actualy like the points idea, the fun part will be figureing out the catagories and how many points for each.

I also like the idea of having two prices, what you actualy paid (freebies are free) and then a running total of what it would have cost new. that way if a newbe liked the design and set up he would know how much it would cost to duplacate it.

Oh about the no water for 6 months, it should have read no water required for 6 months, so you had a max of 6 months to get water in your tank. that would give people time to realy think about what they want to do and work on getting there.

Steve

Go
 

I just wanted to point out, that:

A) I haven't been in a contest, and I probably never will.
B) From the sounds of it, and I have seen it, stores in Vancouver alone fluctuate a lot in price ( go compare J&L vs. Aquariums West ). If you go to the interior, or even more, somewhere in manitoba, your stuff is going to cost you more, 100% guaranteed, so having a flexible system for money ( such as the point system ) makes things a bit more fair.
C) Make the focus again, less on value, and more on creative things such as: aquascaping, flora/fauna combinations, hardware setups.

From what it sounds like, the majority of arguments come from discussions associated with budgets. If the focus is changed from this being the key element that drives the contest, we'll be seeing far more interesting results.
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