current state of the iraqi conflict
 

well after almost a week of quick progress, the coalition forces are getting slowed down by heavier defences and aggressive iraqi troops. the coalition is apparently moving around the dug-in iraqi army, heading for baghdad in an effort to oust the country's leaders and force the military to capitulate. but will it be that simple? baghdad has five million citizens. will the "liberators" easily get to hussein, or will they have to tear down every building in the process? if they do, the battle will rapidly turn into a second stalingrad. back then it was the russian winter that stopped the attackers advance, this time it may well be the iraqi summer. originally a lot of people thought this would be over in a few days or weeks. could we be looking at another vietnam? :question:

I try not to get too political about things as I dont support War in any way, but I dont really belive there is a good guy side to this war in any way. All parties, some more than others, are responsible for some of the most hypocritical bull crap this planet has seen. I know, and dont know, some of the horrible things that go on in Iraq, and I feel horible that some people get treated the way they do, but war mongers are not heroes in my eyes.
on a lighter note:
You know the world is going crazy when ....................

the best rapper is a white guy,
the best golfer is a black guy,
France is accusing the US of arrogance and
Germany doesn't want to go to war."

i also dont support the war

here's some great alerternative streaming news right off the link

http://www.webcamsue.demon.nl/

Rick Mercer's Apology to the Americans



Apology to the Americans


By Rick Mercer, from 'This Hour Has 22 Minutes'



On behalf of Canadians everywhere I'd like to offer an apology to the United
States of America. We haven't been getting along very well recently and for
that, I am truly sorry.

I'm sorry we called George Bush a moron.

He is a moron, but it wasn't nice of us to point it out. If it's any
consolation, the fact that he's a moron shouldn't reflect poorly on the
people of America. After all it's not like you actually elected him.

I'm sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees than
you doesn't give us the right to sell you lumber that's cheaper and better
than your own.

I'm sorry we beat you in Olympic hockey. In our defense I guess our excuse
would be that our team was much, much, much, much better than yours.

I'm sorry we burnt down your white house during the war of 1812. I notice
you've rebuilt it! It's very nice.

I'm sorry about your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer but,
We Feel Your Pain.

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you're going up against a
crazed dictator, you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took
more than two years before you guys pitched in against Hitler, but that was
different. Everyone knew he had weapons.

And finally on behalf of all Canadians, I'm sorry that we're constantly
apologizing for things in a passive-aggressive way which is really a thinly
veiled criticism. I sincerely hope that you're not upset over this. We've
seen what you do to countries you get upset with.

Thank you.

I just love that last paragraph. As funny (and poignant) as I think this is, I fully support the US and their allies in this war. I'm embarrased as a Canadian that our PM has taken the cowards way out.

Here's an analogy :eek:

A number of years the Dutch went to South Africa, and stole the country from the natives. They settled the place, and were called Boers (Dutch for farmers) Then gold and diamonds were discovered. The British liked stuff like that so they went over to steal the country from the Boers. Some Canadians went over too. For some strange reason instead of being called thieves they were called heroes.

Iraq has lots of oil. Need I say more :question: :question:

Bob, that's a completely childish way of looking at the Boer War. The oil is of significant importance but not formost in this particular case. I believe I read somewhere that 3.5% of US oil comes from Iraq. What do you think is going to happen here; the US wins the war and then just pulls her tankers up to the country and starts pumping crude? They may have thumbed their nose at the UN but they do still have to have international acceptance. Other countries may take offense to that.

.

Your OPINION. Do you have a better reason?

i fully support the removal of hussein. i think the US should have waited for the go-ahead from the UN, but since france was planning to veto any such resolution, i think the americans had no choice.

i don't have the quotation, but a CIA official said that this is about oil, bush won't admit it because obviously it will cause some serious hoopla. everyone says the USA doesn't get much oil from iraq. that's fine, but nothing stops them from getting a lot more after they establish an sympathetic government within the country. during the last decade, the USA has been trading iraq oil for food and necessities. the americans have already said that this program will continue after hussein is gone. if that's not utter bull, then i don't know what is.

that said, i still support the coalition in iraq and am not pleased with the stance our federal government has taken on this issue.

bob you must be dutch.

I admit it, and it proves that history is slanted toward the thinking of the person writing it. My oversimplified way of putting my thought was influenced by the way I learned the history. :rolleyes:

I support our PM. How could anyone criticize a decision that most of the world agrees with (Assuming most of world did not favor war)?

On the other hand, I also support the US. Diplomacy and sanctions haven't worked in the last 12 years in Iraq so what makes anyone think it will work in the next 5 or 10 years? All that does is gives them time to acquire the resources to build nuclear weapons and that is why I would rather risk a small war now then a major war later. Does anyone think that Iraq isn't interested in acquiring nuclear weapons? Will they behave responsibly with those weapons?

I don't believe that the US is invading because it wants to occupy a country. It isn't far-fetched for me to believe that National and International Security is their interest. Also, I believe Iraq will benefit economically from international trade that would open up as a result.

Bob, I think you've made a valid point concerning the resources of South Africa but at the time, of equal or greater importance, was the strategic location as a landing site for the eastern trade route. The British Empire relied on this. I also hope we don't forget the feelings of the Dutch colonies towards the tribesman of South Africa. I can't remember the biblical word they named the indigenous races but it inferred beast. If you want to paint the Dutch as innocent farmers that's your right, it will take a lot of paint though.

To be fair Troy, I think Bob said "First the Dutch stole the country ..." etc. I'm not sure he meant to imply that the Dutch were only innocent victims in the whole mess. ... Sadly that whole area down there is one very messed up state of affairs. :sad:

I missed that, sorry Bob.

I also belive that this war has alot to do with oil and setting up a sypathetic goverment. In my opinion Bush has little more to do then set up a cult in his name and have people refer to him as god. Does anyone know how many weapons the US has sold to Iraq??? Mabey before going to war because someone else is a bad person, some should assess their situation and pull the rafter out of their own eye before they drop bombs to remove a needle out of their opposers eye.
"Some people kids...."

I was not in favour of starting this war. However, now that the war is on I think we should completely support the Americans.

At one time the Arab regions were a centre of world culture and intellectual achievement. Advances in science and medicine, the decimal system of numbers, and the concept of the number zero can be credited to the Arabs.

Unfortunately in the last few centuries things have gone downhill over there. Lately the Arabs' greatest invention has been the practice of torturing people by beating them on the soles of their feet.

I sincerely hope that George Bush's troop beat the absolute crap out of those Iraqis. They are a savage people who deserve whatever they get. And I am damn tired of Arab terrorists blowing things (and people) up. Although many of us criticize the Americans, the fact is that we enjoy security, peace, and wealth here in Canada largely due to the protection of our American neighbours.

Send in the B-52's.

In my opinion, to make a statement about terriosts without including the name "bush", is not looking at the whole picture.
Same sh#t different A@@hole!!!
I dont think saddam is a good man in any way but to say that he is the "only bad man" is a load of crap.
hitler
bush
sadam
the list goes on

i am all for the USA going in and i agree that it is not good that canadians didnt go in. we have to learn from history. he dicked around 11 years ago and played the same games he was he is playing now. the people there must not like him you know becaue of the civil upriseing in ( i forget the name of the citie) in one city in iraq today. or maybe they like being terrorized by saddams sons or maybe they also like haveing to watch what the do and say because of the secret police and there spies every where. from all this bable i am trying to say that the people in iraq shouldn't have to deal with saddam . by going to war i think we are taking the lesser evil route.

yeah i think the usa has some intrests to worry about but i dont think the major thiing is oil.

The PM has made a decision, do you think we have a choice? Sure we can speak our minds but it's up the head honcho's to call the shots. Do the american's need us? Of course not, they have the worlds biggest military but I sure think we should of backed them up, even if it was just with words. We sure took the wimpy way out. Sure, nobody likes going to war but service men and women will and have died already. Maybe we just don't want to kill Canadian troops because the coalition simply doesn't need the small contribution we would offer (compared to what's over there, 300'000 troops)

I gotta run, but just what was on my mind at the time. later

Although I understand your frustration and anger, please be careful not to label an entire race based on a small group of extremists.

you might want to get yourself checked out. stereotyping, prejudice and discrimination went out of style in 1950 :neutral: the idea that skin colour and bone structure can dictate ideology and attitude is foolish and immature. certainly hardline muslims (shiite) have issues with the west, but the majority of muslims do not. confusing iraq's sunni leadership with the shiite terrorists we are familiar with is a grave mistake. to equate hussein with bin laden is also an error. bin laden believes men should be able to beat their wives, and that women should not leave the home. hussein allows women to hold positions in his innermost circles and wear makeup. bin laden willingly would have very little to do with hussein. if the two have any common interest, it is hatred of america, but for very different reasons.

you are correct that the arab world was once the pinnacle of civilization. their moorish palaces in spain and the scientific legacy they have left prove it. to dismiss them as evil is a sin in itself. there are arab groups that hate iraq as much as you do.

that said, i believe that the rise of pan-islam is imminent, and that western culture, founded on rationality and ends-justify-the-means actions, will soon be overshadowed, perhaps forever, by a society founded on conservativeness and absolutism. the right-wing spirit you embody is more inkeeping with the ideas of hardline muslims the world over than it is with left-wing liberal western politics.

i urge caution and consideration before making any rash judgements. history repeats itself.

now this is my kind of argument! :razz:

-----------------------

edit - looks like the original got deleted... if this gets deleted i hope someone at least appreciates the crap i can speel thanks to my intro poli sci class :lol:

Ha, I'm out.. way over my head/out of my leauge :razz: Talk to you guys on the board :cool:

Teevee,

I am sorry but my views are not racist or discriminatory.

This is not a race issue, it is an issue of a conflict between cultures.

Our western culture values ideas such as individual liberty, fundamental justice, equality, freedom of worship, etc etc etc. The other culture does not value these things at all.

I completely reject a culture which degrades women, suppresses other religions, and where the governing powers rule by fear, torture and repression. And unfortunately these are the cultural values of the entire Arab world, whether we are talking about orthodox Shi'ites in Iran or secular Arabs in Sadaam's regime. The individual nuances may vary but the basic value system is the same.

Our western ideals and freedoms have been built up over many centuries. We can not expect these people to live by our value system which is foreign to them. Their culture is similar to the culture my ancestors lived in 3000 years ago. Their beliefs values and practices are barbaric and that is a fact.

Well said.

You know it is discussions like this that bring out the best and the worst in people, this case I am not sure which, the people who are supporting the action here (yes it is a action not a war) are supporting it for the wrong reasons, and the people who are against it better get there heads out of there A$$’s and learn some real facts and history about the reason and why this is going on.

First I want to dispel a few myths
1, Canada has chosen to not take part
Bull malarkey, we sent 5 ships over to the gulf to relieve American ships so they can move into position against Iraq. We also have Canadian soldiers working with the US in intelligence and in the AWACs (Is that the right abrebreation?)

2, The US just wants the oil
That’s funny, the US has no interest in the oil from Iraq, and their imports from them could easily be made up elsewhere.

3, The US is going against the UN
Wrong again, the US and England are acting in accordance with two UN resolutions that have been in place since Iraq tried to wipe out Kuwait (remember that.. it was in 1990, and Iraq had no intentions of stopping until every person that resisted them was dead.. woman and children also.

4, Suddam is not a terrorist.
This is true, but he has funded and sheltered terrorists and allowed them to use Iraq as a safe haven

You know I can’t believe the audacity of some people who are actually feeling sorry for Suddam; this is the same person that tests chemical/bio weapons on his own people, this is the same people who has anyone who are against him politically killed. This is only a small sample of what this dictator has done.

Mabe I am privy to some more info than some people because of my position but remember the news is a filters version of the truth, and what we have been seeing on the news isn’t really squat compared to what is really going on.

For an example take this palace guard that has been talked about as the defenders of Baghdad. Do they mention that Suddam has another guard behind them that will shoot them if they don’t fight? So there only choice is to fight or be shot by there own people.

Suddam has also started to order that his troops take off there uniforms and pull into the populated areas; you think the US wants this? It makes there job hard as hell trying to sort out civilians from army. This also allows the army to use civilians as human shields. There is also the fact that he has been issuing chemical weapons to his troops and setting them up in populated areas, once again showing no regard for his people.

For the people who don’t remember the last UN action against him the reason he is not allowed to have weapons of mass destruction is because he tried to use them for genocide, and last time I checked that wasn’t a nice thing to do.

Sorry I have not bee around, I had to take a break from most of my life the last couple weeks do to some intense physical training I am undergoing in order to do my part in this action, yes I am in the Canadian military and yes we are actually involved, be it indirectly we are still involved. I am entering a relaxed phase of my training now so I will be around a bit more for a while.

Steve

Thanks for the info Steve :cool:
Much appreciated

I have a large degree of respect for the comments that stircrazy has made, I too think that saddam is a monster! Although I do not support war at all, as it, as always, has roots in money, greed, and power. I think bush is a war monger that cloakes himself in a clean white sheet making out to be the patron saint or some garbage like that. He in my opinion is as close to a terriost as bin laden. The reason 9/11 happened from what I can gather is a retalitation that was long over due if you were on the other side of the map. Im not supporting terriost actions in any way, I think that every party involved should be shot and ****ed on, they dont deserve to live. I just dont agree with bush being hailed as a patron saint, he is far closer to the devil if you ask me. War is crap, plain and simple. If people were not so damb selfish and greedy and they excersized a little love for their fellow brother(human being) this planet would be a wonderful place to be. Some people disgust me.....

Thanks for the opinions Steve. Canada is not officially involved and this is how the world is viewing it including our country and theirs. The US's interest in the Middle East is oil, the interest in Iraq is more involved than just that but make no mistake the big corporations run the US and they don't do things for humanitarian reasons (meaning there's financial gain). The US, Britain and Australia have acted outside the UN. You are no more privy than the rest of us on matters of political science. This is a war.

As much as I agree that the US should take action against Iraq, I have no illusions that the US have alterior motives. If you can find me one place where the US has made war and actually put a better gov't in place I'll be amazed.

For those of you wishing to send a letter to the PM, here is the website:

Oops, did I give my position away...... :lol:


http://www.wesupporttheusa.ca/

Man it must be nice to get info when I was in the military we got very little info and lots of smoke blown up our a@@.

And as to wether or not someone is a terrorist it would depend on your definition, every one can be one in their own way.

As for the PM comitting troops to the war in Iraq, what did you expect from a government that disbanded the Airborne Regiment here in Canada.

One of the reasons I left the military was the fact that I trained to do one thing, fight, something that would never happen here in Canada.

Although no one likes to admit it people are violent in nature and more disputes have been resolved through brute force than any other means.

It does not matter the numbers we could contribute, because every little bit helps. Every person plays a role and does their own part to reach a common goal.

Should this war have started, I do not know. Should it continue, yes. To back down now is not a option, so who cares why it REALLY started. Besides there are always other reasons things are done it is just whether or not anyone wants to admit it.

Oh yeah remember that the history books are always written by the winners.

Hey this is just my two cents, if you do not like it...

Yes, I saw all that on Sixty Minutes tonite......so much for recognizing civilian casualties....

Oh well not much we can do about it the war is going on whether we like it or not. The best we can hope for is that it will be over quickly and with a minimum of casualties.

Unfortunately I believe this will be a long drawn-out and particularly bloody campaign. The U.S. will get drawn into a battle for the city of Baghdad. Sadaam's forces will use every dirty trick in the book. They will use hospitals, schools, apartment blocks full of people etc. as places for their troops to camp out and attack the enemy from. You can't exactly call in an artillery barrage on a children's hospital so that is exactly where the Iraqi soldiers will be hunkered down. The Americans will have no choice but to clear the Iraqis by bloody street-to-street and house to house fighting. It will be like Stalingrad all over again.

The other part of the equation is the two countries have different tolerances for casualties. The Iraqi regime has no problem sacrificing several hundred thousand troops. The Americans won't tolerate a few thousand casualties. So the Iraqis will have the advantage, hiding behind civilians, engaging in close-quarters combat, and keeping up the fight until the Americans get sick of taking such a severe mauling.

Anyway it is unfortunate that so many young 20-year-old naive troops on both sides will be sacrificed, sent there by their leaders. Perhaps George Bush and Sadaam should have it out between each other, instead of sending the youth of their countries to do it for them.

You are right urban conflict can be the worst to fight, it is very easy for a small number of enemy soldiers to hunker down in a fortified building while numerous waves of exposed troops advance and are sacrificed to gain the objective.

Who says that 20-year old troops are naive, I am a little insulted by that comment.

ARMY GUY"S TIME
 

Well there are alot of good points out there to go with :exclaim: But I'm going with my experince and the times when i was over in BOSNIA getting pot shots taken at.

I'm for the war the reason is you can't expect that the 2 strongest countries in the region is going to let a old rogaine failing freak try to say his country is better. :lol: Yes i feel bad for the little kids and the parents over there. But he has to be stop he has everyone in terror him and his 2 boys its crazy, There army is all told they will join and fight for him ,That;s crap What do you think all of them are surrendering :snipersm:

and i am totally for the open fightign too, Think about it you go to war in urban your
Tanks are no good can't use to their maxinum protential.
Apache's are usless their in city fighting too many pot shots.
Artillery is no good trust me I'm in the ARTILLERY.. :snipersm:
And AIR FORCE are use less unless you are bringing in the B-52 to level the town and then bring in the tanks ad the ground troops :mrgreen: But its then brings to having all that rumble for the to hide in half blown up building mass destruction again. So there you have it did i miss somthing :lol:

To whom it may concern please dont take this the wrong way it;s just my 2 cents worth.

Well again until you have seen the actual place where the war went thur, like
DIEPPE, NORMANDY, JUNO BEACH, ABBY -DE'ARDENE where 27 canadians soldiers where excuted!!!
How many new about that they where killed by the 12 SS panzer regitment.
GERMANS
MAN its a weird feeling :redface:
Alll i have to say is i felt like a piece of crap standing at the very place where my fallen comrades once laid. So to me i would love to go to fight in the War. But we can't due to our informed -P.M- who don't know his head from his feet. :evil:

what bothers me is that he can tell us when to go to war, :evil: I think that the army should have their own PM for standing up and pushing out the orders to say YEY OR NEY for the troops to go. I know for a fact there are a few thousand troops would love to go to head out even if it is for support of secruity

well enough said
have to go instruct on a MACHINE GUNN COURSE.. :snipersm: :2gunfire:

LATER

Wannabe,

Sorry, poor choice of words.

What I meant is the 50-year-olds sit back and make the decisions and the 20-year-olds go out and get themselves killed.

Sorry Wannabe, a post confusion.

i agree completely. when you said in your first post "arab" rather than "muslim" i assumed you meant arab as in the race, rather than islam, which includes of course the religion and the cultural base it forms. you obviously don't believe that all iraqis are bloodthirsty then do you :razz: however while i agree that all three branches of islam share common beliefs, i don't feel that all muslims take the more extreme ideas to heart. this is like saying that all christians hate gays or that all jews refuse to eat pork. while they are certainly aware of prescriptions or proscriptions stated in their holy books, the belief systems have been modernized for some individuals, while some continue, as is their right, to abide by age-old conventions, regardless of their applicability in 21st century civilization.

troy, resolution 1441 does not specifically authorize the americans to use force in iraq, as bush says it does. i do not consider myself an expert on political affairs by any measure, but having recently written a paper on the aforementioned resolution and participated in a model united nations forum, i heard a speech from a canadian senator and former ambassador emphasizing what the resolution calls for, and what it does not call for. as a legal document, one cannot make any assumptions in dealing with a security council resolution. it is not open to reinterpretation by iraq, america, or any other state or political body. however i understand that france, russia and china, which have permanent veto power in the security council, would have overruled any resolution supported by america to use force against iraq, and therefore i feel bush had no alternative. once again, i support the coalition in iraq, and am ashamed that canada has not chosen to stand by our largest trading partner and key ally.

thanks to everyone for the insight and opinions, and for keeping it tame, other than some minor misunderstandings. :biggrin:

I 'm thinking the same way on the BUSH campain and the PM in how he can say that Canada will not be exercising troops in the middle east conflicts
I was talking to a friend in the east, he told me that a couple of his mother's friends went across to buy some chicken in CALAIS Maine. the duty guy stop them. and asked where are you going. These being older ladies in there 60's told the officer that they are going to buy chicken. The offier said "WHY don't you have chicken in Canada?.
The ladies told him yes but it's cheaper there. The officer denied them of of buying maybe you should support your own country..... :mad:

maybe it's freak of nature that it happened as the wWAR was going on.

I don't know but it makes you wonder on how much our money will drop!!!!!! :evil:

asmodeus
Hey I did not insult you. You do not even know me. I did a three year stint in the reg force, with the Third Battalion PPCLI. And I spent my time in Bosnia as well. So you may be in the military right now but that does not make you any better than anyone else. So what if I left the military, that is no reason for you to try and paint me as being a WOG or a Reservist. I did my fair share of shootin, gettin shot at and jumppin from CC130's. If you want to jump to conclusions without knowing all the facts than that is your right, but I want you to remember that when you make a bad choice and take a round centre of mass. Last I check the ground pounders are alot closer to the action than any Artty guy is when it comes to an actual conflict. If you want to know more about what my history is and where I went and what I did send me a PM. I do not appreciate being slammed on a public forum.
edit: There was a mix up in the reading of posts, peace is returned.
Sorry all sometimes I just need to vent.

i'm not a military man and i never will be, but are you guys suggesting 20 year old privates should be in control, rather than fifty year old generals? something tells me they went through the same stuff the young guys are going through? isn't that how bureaucracy works? :eek: :biggrin:

No, teevee. I am just saying that historically nations have recruited their youth to send to war, for a lot of reasons. One reason is that they will follow orders better, for better or for worse.