Importance of the Invoice
 

Would you buy fish from a store that won't show you their invoice?

I think I'd be inclined to believe the owner if he told be the source, unless I had some evidence to the contrary.

Noel

If I didn't think the store was trustworthy in the first place, I wouldn't buy fish there.

Michael

We have the right to know the country of origin of the fish we are spending good money on to ensure that we are not buying cyanide fish.
If we ask the online/LFS and they refuse any reasonable person would come to the assumation that the fish are from the Phillipinnes or Indonesia.

I believe myself to be reasonable and I would NOT make that assumption. If it was my business, I would tell you to stick your head you know where before I would show you any of my business documents. This whole show me the invoice thing is the most ridiculous comment I have heard on this board.

I'm with Brad. What's my business is my business and you have the right to be told to get lost by every LFS.

If you are really worried where the fish came from, I would suggest you keep a Red Sea tank.

Has anyone ever SEEN a single invoice?? I'd be interested to know how many of us have ever asked this question at an LFS:

"Can you tell me where this fish was collected?"

I haven't once...

I agree with Brad regarding the right to confidendiality regarding business documents. But Brad, I strongly disagree with the statement that the whole subject is the most ridiculous comment made on these boards...
I haven't been around here long but the list of ridiculous comments is constantly growing. Some of them are mine...doh! :wink: :)

OK,OK, you got me. I may have stretched that a bit. How about top 10?

There is obvious misunderstanding from my post so let me clarify it.
Here is what I am saying.

If we are buying a tang, angel or trigger which are species known to be from the Phillippines and Indonesia we should be asking the following.
1. What is the country of origin of that tang or angel or trigger.
If the answer is Fiji and we trust the LFS or online store. We can walk out with our treasure knowing we do not have a cyanide fish.

If for any reason we suspect that it is not Fiji (Reef Raf said the box had the Phillippines written on it as an example) or they say they don't know we should ask to see the evidence of the origin of the fish.
If the LFS refuses we can assume that it is from the Phillippines or Indonesia.

This is not a business confidentiality issue at all.

This is the issue for all reefers. Cyanide not only kills fish it destroys the reef. Do you want to be part of a hobby that is responsible for this?

even if the owner shows the invoice and on the invoice is says the fish is from figi ect... does not mean it is........thats why its important for stores to have good relationships with there wholesaler.....its all about trust..........And it DOES have to do with business confidentiality because........its a business and store owners dont necessarily want everyone to know where they get there excellent quality of fish from........

I don't know. At one time I'd certainly would agree with the statement that "some things are just none of the consumer's danged business" but I find that in today's reality, that is becoming more of a rare privledge. Company I work for has to produce invoices on demand... Hell, I have to provide a drivers abstract, submit random credit checks, or even pee into a cup if that's what turns my customers on. I don't like it one bit, and I'll happily tell the customer what I think of him if he asks for it ..... but after that, if I wish to remain employed, or to continue doing business, I have to comply. Tough patootie.

So I don't have one iota of sympathy anymore to those businesses who don't want to show me the invoice if I were to decide I need to see it. Confidentiality of suppliers is a load of crap unless somebody has something to hide. If they want, blot out the prices. I don't care if they make a 100% profit or whatever .... the point is I'm not in a position to buy $2000 of livestock by myself, so it's not like I'm going to go out and start importing things by myself. I recognize that the places I choose to do business with, need to make a profit if I wish for them to remain in business. And I do wish for them to remain in business, so that I can go shopping there again next month or next year. I certainly don't want to find myself with no LFS I can visit every now and again... I just want the LFS's to be clean and as green as possible. I don't think that's really too much to ask.

i couldnt imagine asking...........can i see your invoice so i know u arnt lieing???............i feel like its such a rude request

if u always have to ask to see the invoice to insure the salesperson is being honest, i dont think thats a store u would want to be shopping at

Tony, sorry you don't like your job, but I would be more than willing to show you the door from my LFS if you demanded it was YOUR right to see MY stuff. Just wouldn't happen.

And what happens now is that I alienate myself from all the marine retailers in my city. That means I have to mail order my fish. But I'm told to never mail order a tang, 'cause I need to see it first. So to buy a tang, I have to take a day off from work(where I don't pee in cups, BTW :D ), catch a ferry to Vancouver for ~$100, drive to Coquitlam and pick a healthy tang from J&L(who probably wouldn't show me invoices either). So now I have a tang that cost me roughly $375. Is this what we seriously expect the consumer to do??? If you can answer yes to this, you're a kook!!

reef raf,

first of all, if you ever told a customer to stick his head..... you would be out of business in a short time. So now it is fair for me to assume you are not a businessman.

If you believe the LFS when they tell you where the fish is from, without asking for any documentation, then it is also fair for me to asume that you believe the LFS when they tell you a fish is feeding, without actually seeing it feed, and when it doesn't feed, and they tell you it's becasue it was just fed before you got there, I asume you buy the fish anyway.

I worked at a fish store, and when reefers came in and asked questions like this, I respected them and knew they were not NEWBIES.

Any reputable LFS should be happy to show documentation requested by the customer, as they are entitled to know what they are buying.

Ryan, telling insane customers to shop elsewhere is not going to put me out of business. And I think I have always stated that I do not believe in the myth of the reputable LFS.
I have learned to make a reasonable assesment of a fish by watching it in the store. Based on my experience, I have been fairly successful in picking healthy fish. And this is what I tell people to do.
In my city, we do not have any reputable stores I guess, because none will show me an invoice. So where do you suggest I shop?

Reef raf yours is a distinct problem. Perhaps you have said or done something to **** your LFS.
But please remember new reefers read this board and yours is poor advice.
There is nothing wrong and everything right in asking a LFS where a fish came from
There is nothing wrong and everything right in asking to see a fish feed.
My God, for the benefit of new reefers tell them that you agree with me please.

Mine is only hypothetical, I am still welcome in my local stores. But they do all get fish from the philipines.
There is nothing wrong with the intent of the act that you are suggesting, just that realistically, I don't think the new consumer will have any luck actually seeing an invoice.
The feeding thing came from the LFS clerk above, I have no idea why. Viewing feeding is reasonable and every LFS I've visited has obliged. Ryan is picking fights where there was none.

I realize I come across as an ass on this topic, but I think I am accurate in my portrayal of the industry. I truly admire the intent of your actions, and wish this topic didn't even need to be discussed. Unfortunately, greed is the motivator in many fish stores.
That is why I maintain that the consumer learn to look for signs of a healthy fish and does not need to rely on the "advice" of the LFS owner/employee. Oh, and make sure the fish feeds before taking it home.

Naesco, although it may not be obvious, you and I are on the same side. I just call a spade a spade, instead of hoping it turns to a diamond.

Keep it cool fellows, it's a hobby :) , we've all forgotten before (except me). I've seen invoices before and I don't think it would be to much of a problem to ask, they might say no and they might say here ya go. Knowing where the fish is collected is always a concern of mine and I always ask. John or Allen will just plain tell you where the shipment comes from and I'd believe them. I tend to do my business with retailers I can trust. There are retailers I don't trust, I wouldn't buy anything from them.

Brad, I'm not sure why you're so offended by this whole topic. In certain applications, the idea of seeing an invoice is crazy but on this topice considering the point of ethics and all, I think it a valid quiestion. I'm not saying the sheet will come out but no harm in aking. If one of my customers asks for a supplier I tell them, "I'm sure you can see why I'm not going to tell you that," and that ends it. I have customers asking for copies of my master keys, extracter keys and lock picks if you can believe it. I've yet to tell one to stuff their head up their ass, although, it is tempting at times.

Troy, I'm certainly not offended, and I regret if I come across that way. No harm in asking is right, and I did just that today. They politely declined. All done, nobody left bleeding or anything :P .
I suppose also that my terminology in dealing with customers would not follow my comments here verbatim, just that I would have to ask you to shop elsewhere if you demanded to see my papers. I would not show them to you. Period. I will tell you, to the best of my ability, where the fish came from. If you imply I am not telling the truth, I really would not show you anything and would ask you to shop elsewhere.
We can certainly discuss this further in person during the tour and perhaps I can emphasize my point a bit better. Really though, I'm trying to be on the side of good in this!!! :D

Well, this post yet again tweaked my interest. while I sympathize with people who want to see where there fish is from I also disagree that they should have to show you there bill of lading or invoice. First of all there is information on there that you have no business knowing. Do I want you to know the name and contact number of my supplier? I think not! Do I want you to know how much I paid for the fish I think not! Hell who cares if I paid 1.00 got a flame angel... I have overhead, shipping ect. to pay for and you know what... I think I would be entitled to make a bit of a living for my self! After all why did I open a store in the first place? Let me tell you anyone who said they run a store because they love the hobby is only telling you ½ the truth. it is also because they want to make money. So Naesco I am not sure who you are or why you are the way you are. actually I really don’t care. but you come into my store asking to see an invoice for a fish you will be shopping somewhere else after you recover from being the first person to be thrown out of a store. You know what, why don’t you go to a lighting store and ask to see there invoice so you can see if you are paying to much for your lights or so you can make sure they get them from a specific supplier. I bet that will get you real far.

On a side note I would probably just laugh if I was asked that but if you persisted then I would probably get upset.

Jeff

Jeff, Naesco is a guy who cares about the reefs, and the people that choose the reefs as their hobby. I don't agree in the way he does it, but I made a point of reading every post he's ever posted in 3 major boards. He means well. I think he's crazy, but I think a lot of people are crazy. Let's try and keep this as civil as possible, as I can see misunderstandings coming about. We're all friends here, right??

True and perhaps I was a bit hasty, but I think you can see that not only in the “hobby” but in most businesses this is the reaction you will get. Troy I respect that places let you see there invoices, and if it was a trusted friend of mine I would show them with out hesitation, but thing realistically about this, does Canadian tire really want you to know that there is a 150% mark up on tools? Or does “Joe blow” fish store really want you to know that there is a 400% mark up on flame angels for example. Also the invoice rarely shows how the real landed price of the fish shipping isn’t on it, DOA’s isn’t on it. All this has to be made up by raising the prices of the ones that make it.

Once again I wasn’t intending to insult only to show the absurdness of asking to see a companies invoice.

So to Naesco I apologize but I really do believe you are inciting more harm than good with your posts.

Jeff

Jeff we all know there's an obscene mark up and most of us understand it's a neccessary part of the business. What would be wrong with posting a copy of the invoice minus price and contact information? What we want (or at least some of us) is to know that the fish we're are considering buying are collected in an environmentally way. A store willing to go the extra distance in this area would have my business in a heart beat. All of this is moot, just shop at a place where you can trust the retailer. For me that's J&L Aquatics.

PS: I'm not sure which retailer you're working for ;) but I don't think you really want to be making threats of throwing people out for simply wanting to know where the fish came from. I know one place has threatened me (and then threatened to call the police when I disapproved of being threatened) and I've never shopped there again. I do go to laugh at the fire trap every once in a while but I've never bought a thing since.

All I really meant was if I felt it necessary that I needed to see an invoice, that I wouldn't have a whole lot of sympathy for the protectionist argument. (To be clear I don't mind my job ... I was not complaining about my job!!!!) I kind of agree with the sentiment that if I DID feel I had to ask for an invoice, then I would probably wonder what it was I was doing shopping there. I currently don't make a habit of asking for invoices and I certainly don't feel a need to do so. I do, however, very often make a point to engage the LFS proprietor in a friendly conversation and I usually make a point to ask where the thing {whatever it is I'm looking at} came from. Generally they don't lie. If it came from Indonesia, I've been told they came from there. If it comes from an area where I know cyanide is rampant, then I might think twice. But I always make it a point to keep it on friendly terms. I don't know how to ask for an invoice and keep it friendly. It is a bit of an invasive question and could easily be construed as a hostile question as well, so it's a tricky situation.

But I have to agree with Naesco. I certainly don't want to actively participate in a practise that is destroying the reefs, so short of quitting the hobby, we need to proactively discuss what other things we can do.

cheers

I guess I'm fortunate in the fact that when I became active in the hobby, I came to know the fish managers at several of the local stores quite well. Everyone KNEW about cyanide then, it's not a new thing. And these store managers didn't want those fish anymore than anyone else.

I shopped with some of these people at other stores in the city, and it was nothing to ask the origin of the fish. The type of person we were dealing with on the other end of the question had no problem in responding.

I guess I feel if they were lying, likely they would come across poorly to me in other areas as well, and I doubt I'd be shopping there, as I don't in certain city stores.

This isn't about seeing their prices etc. It's about dealing with people who take some interest in the survival of the hobby.

Now, if you have a supplier out there who is willing to show you proof of collection source without you even asking, then in my mind this sets a precedent for his competition to follow.

Well I just saw this thread and figured Id add my 2 cents...
This rant is based on personal experience from the business side of reefing.
As I mostly bring in higher end fish, I have alot of customers that want to know where the fish come from and what the capture method was. I tell them where the fish is from and how it was caught(to the best of my knowledge) Its really that simple, they ask, I tell... As for showing Any customer one of my purchase invoices, Hell No!!!!!!!!!! I have actually had a customer come over and ask to see my invoices because he said that he didnt want me to be making too much money off of him... I told him that as a special service, he could purchase anything he wanted at a min of 600% markup. :) No customer has the right to know what you purchased something at, so you can sell it as a service to put food on your table. "Yeah, Id like the lobster with the 6oz sirloin steak, Yeah Ill have the baked potato with chives please." "Oh what do you purchase your steak for when you buy it by hundreds of pounds? I know Im only buying 6oz but hey I figure you should carge me cost+mabey 10%, I think thats fair. And the lobster, yeah I know my aunt May in Nova Scotia gets them real big ones for a couple bucks each so yeah Id be willing to pay say $3.50 for the lobster portion. Yeah it sounds pretty absurd, but If you came to my store and asked me to show you my invoice, Id look at you like you just walked out of the loonie bin. And if your request persisted into a demand, I would let you know where the door is and let you know that my life would be alot better if I never heard from you again. I understand peoples concern with getting quality livestock, so find a store that looks like they have quality and then keep buying from them and support them so they can maintain that quality. So many times i see long time reefers that know where the quality stores are but they go hunting for livestock at the less than par stores looking for a deal and then they complain unceasingly about the poor quality livestock that died or made their whole tank sick. STAY AWAY FROM STORES THAT HAVE CRAP PRODUCT!!!!!!!! If you keep supporting them they just keep bringing in more sub par livestock. SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL STORE THAT CARRIES BETTER PRODUCT FOR A HIGHER PRICE!!!!!!!!!! There is a very good reason that they charge a little more for some things. And it is alot cheaper in the end. On a final note, dont ever ask to see my invoice, my business, not yours!!!

Am I missing something here? I thought when you guys wanted to see invoices you were interested in seeing WHERE the shipment was from not the price or the markup price or whatever. I think most know in this business that a flame angel costs $1.25 plus shipping and stuff. I used to work at a fish store and we could have shown the invoice to anyone who wanted to see it. We would prepare a copy of it without the price or suppliers name on it. Nobody ever asked to see it while I worked there.


Christy :)

One more time please

I do not care how much you paid for the fish. It is none of my business.

Is there anyone on this thread who would not provide me with the answer to my question as to the origin of the fish?

Is there anyone on this thread who is too chickenPOOP to ask a LFS or online where the fish came from?

Come on reefers as Del puts it we want a green and clean industry.

We want to know that the fish we buy are not cyanide caught fish from the Phillipinnes or Indonesia.

Just a Guy if you disagree with the above please tell us the name of your store and where it is located Thanks

This thread is actually quite amusing. Seeing an invoice and proving origin of a fish are two completely different issues. If a hobbiest asks a simple question of the origin of a fish, a simple answer should suffice. Why the necessity to pull invoices to verify this? The LFS should be taken for their word.

The price of the fish should also be a great clue. Ever see the price of a coral beauty from Fiji or Australia? Quite a bit more than that of the Philippines or Indo. Most fish are priced as they are because they come from PI or Indo.

Proving they are cyanide free is a whole other issue.

Christy...let me know where those $1.25 flame angels come from :wink:

I think because some LFS probably can't be trusted.

If you can't trust a LFS with that type of answer, why would you shop there? Obviously there are a number of other factors to add to your distrust.

I wouldn't. Some people probably don't have a choice though, I think we're lucky to have as many stores as we do. We're able to choose.

As I said in my little rant, if a customer asks where a fish came from, I simply tell them. Its really very easy. If you didnt want to belive me or another store owner, then you really shouldnt be shopping at that business. As for invoices, well alot of fish in this hobby, fresh and saltwater, come from the phillipines/indo, boxes are reused many times and from what I know of alot of B.C. stores, alot of stores get their fish from a large wholesaler where you can get one shipment of fish that contains a fish from every part of the world known to man. Not many retail stores order direct from the source of livestock as the min orders are very high and a store dosent have enough tanks to house a single min shipment. What the box says that the fish came in means nothing, its a piece of cardboard that protects a styro box which holds little living jewels.(Fish,coral,inverts,plants.) As for what an invoice says on it, well it can really say anything the invoicer want it to, you probably dont want to hear this but alot of the companies that pump out the larger numbers of cynide caught fish, well they have the most stickers, stamps, and seals that guarantee net caught fish. As someone previously mentioned earlier in this thread, this is a business that relies alot on trust between business aquantiences, when I order from a suplier I can see the quality of their product and therfore order from them again, the same way hobbiests should deal with their LFS. My earlier rant touched more on the invoice money side, but at the same time my customer should trust me if I can contuinally provide top quality livestock at a decent price point. If you come to me saying that you dont belive me where the fish come from and want to see an invoice then I will most definitally take it as a direct insult. You are essentially calling me a liar to my face. Personally my livestock speaks for itself! As someone else mentioned earlier similar fish have very different prices, as I try to cater to a high end customer I only purchase high end fish and therefore pay a high end price and I most definatley pass that high end price to my customer. What my invoices say are my business, where fish come from is everybodys business.

Just my two cents,

Having a " right to know the origin of fish", not a god given right, but as a consumer you can demand anything you want as ultimately you purchase the product.

"Assumption as to where fish are from if they dont tell you is Indo/Philli", not the first one I would draw, but if the fish dies fairly quickly after purchase from an experienced salt water individual, maybe. As an aside, im sure I read somewhere that a local vet in Tsawwassen, Hoff who is well regarded at the aquarium will do testing after death.....

As for the confidentiallty of documents, if you are like Big Als in Richmond that proposes that all fish are non-cyanide caught then you should be able to back up your advertising. Otherwise buyer beware.

The business side of this hobby is a fact of life, there are many niches and low cost provider may not be suitable for all hobbiest, maybe the cream of the crop as at deepblue is more suitable, others with more experience can drive arround and look at many different retailers or wholesalers to "pick" their own fish.

My last point is "does the retailer really know where the fish is from", some of the confusion comes from staff who are not trained to deal on a retail level with experienced people or just dont know. Other comes from the wholesaler who packs their shipments in incorrectly marked boxes (sure :wink: )

Maybe some of the wholesalers can tell us what the retailers require and what they provide ?

What is it that the wholesaler provides to this equation thats not passed on the the retail customer to alleviate this concern and confusion for the hobbiest.


Wendell

Oh Sam

Great topic :BIG:

I'm really kind of blown away by the attitude of some of the people that either appear to be in the retail end or are in the retail end of this. The burden is on you to satisfy the customer and as things progress and the hobbyist becomes more educated you will have to meet these demands or you won't be in business. If we ask to see documentation of some sort to prove where an order is coming from then it should be made available. As Christy and Naesco said, we're not interested in the price. We all know about the mark up. If you're getting your fish from a place that brings in fish from all over the place and you don't know where they came from, maybe you should change your supplier. If those that are trying to educate the hobbyist can't reach enough people through mediums such as this, we'll find our hobby policed from the outside.

I think the retailers of the area could do the hobby some good by getting together and setting some standards. If it costs more to bring in ethicaly captured critters then price fix. I know this isn't going to happen but it would solve a lot of the problems. Competition between the various retailers causes as many problems as it solves in certain cases. You can't purchase Goniapora spp. at J&L's but I'll bet you guys can find it if you want it.

DBA, how are many of the people to know if the retailer tells the truth. They know that many of the Philippine and Indo fish are cyanide caught so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think some may not be forthright.

Big Al's have a lab report stating that such and such fish were tested (I think it was clowns and if they need cyanide to catch clowns then we have some serious problems) and were certified cyanide free. The certificate is from back in '99 I think. How many shipments since then have come out of the Philippines and what do you think the odds are that they were all cyanide free?


This is such a great point. And, not only should we support the place that carries better product when we buy their livestock but we should support them with our drygood purchases too. Squibbling over a few bucks here and there is pointless if you give your business to an unethical retailer. There are stores around here that I wouldn't buy my dog food from, never mind aquarium livestock or supplies, and I don't care if they had the cheapest friggin' prices on the face of the earth.

I believe I am the one responsible for the whole idea of seeing an invoice when I said my LFS will pull out the invoice when ever I ask about origon or what kind of a deal can I get... The invoice and the calculator come out. I can ask and see the invoice at anytime, I know what the store buys the fish for and I can see where the shipment came from. Do I care what the store pays for the fish, NO, although I like to know, what I care about is can I afford the fish, lets face it, if you go into your LFS and see a French Angel for $25 guaranteed net caught........ well.. (insert imagination)
My LFS is unique in alot of ways, I know alot of you don't like them and I have issues with them from time to time, but I have always been able to work out those issues.
CBA, I don't blame you for wanting to make a few $$ off of your fish, not many people try to make a living off of selling stuff for less than cost...

My personal belief is that retailers need to make $$, it is the way they deal with me that makes me a loyal customer. If I feel like I donate my paycheque at the front desk when I walk in, I probably wont go back, if I feel I get a fair deal for the service and the livestock I recieve I will go back. I won't pay $2 for a flame angel if the service is poor, mind you I wouldn't pay $500 for one if the service was great.

I don't think this thread is ridiculous at all, I do think this thread shows our outlook on the hobby, our priorities in finding a favorite LFS, and what we look for in a retailer.

We are all different, no one is a kook for asking questions, no one is an idiot for pressing for information from the retailer. Sure you may get kicked out for asking a question, but what if the retailer says sure, lemme get it for you.

This hobby is made up of people from different back grounds, some people are more conservation minded, some are more pocket book minded. Some just don't care, the trick is to educate people as to why we don't want to support stores that sell cyanide caught fish.

One question I would like to ask, What do I look for as a consumer when I am in a fish store and suspect the fish may be cyanide caught. Will the fish show obvious signs that will tip me off? I know most if not all fish are drugged for shipping to reduce the stress etc... but after that wears off, what do I look for in determining how a fish was caught?

cyinide caught fish usually look like hand caught fish when there first brought in........the way of detecting cynide caught fish is.....after the first week or so the fish stops eating.....unless the fish wasnt eating from the start.........they dwindle down to nothin.........also lack of colour and heavy breathing are signs that the fish might be cynide caught..........also the ovbiously to good to be true prices like $10 flame angels........they usually are to good to be true!!! and i believe the area where they use cyinide the most is the phillipines