Homelessness: Discuss!
 

There we go.

....taken from the "Help?" thread, which was quickly diverging off course.

To say that addiction is a choice is also an over-simplification of a complex problem. What drives people to substance abuse is complex. What drives people to certain substances, which are largely indicative of the environment(s) they have chosen, is also complex. It's very very easy to say that it's a choice, because that puts the onus solely on the addicted, and lets us sleep soundly at night, not having to really consider the bigger picture.

I have worked with dozens and dozens of youth, addicted to every substance imaginable, selling their bodies for a quick hit or a few bucks. It's so complex....as complex as each individual.

Oh, this is surely a hot topic. I just know that from my years of working hand-in-hand with this very demographic, there's no easy answer.

Hey Drew:lol:

I guess for Drew and I we see it from another vantage point. He see's the poor children who are homeless and suffering from drug abuse. And they are all still little people who are hurting in a big way for one reason or another and this is how they cope or who knows how it all took place.

I on the other hand work with the adults with mental illness and to be very honest with you i see the same in them as to teens. They have been "labelled"per say. Society doesn't yet understand the scope of mental illness.

But on the other hand i think that asside from the 2 scenarios above everyone has there reason. And to judge that without them actually saying" i'm to lazy to get a job" then really where do people get off with saying that they are to lazy?

Have you lived there life? Have you walked a day in there shoes? Have you lost a family member,been divorced,had a crappy childhood? Everyone deals with stress differently and i don't think that some should be chastized for that.

Be carefull because one day it could be you. You could lose your job which in turn leads to you losing your house and car and possibly marriage,children etc::: You never know what tommorrow brings and do you want people to judge you not knowing what has gone on in your life???

Sorry...I tend to agree with Snappy....from the help thread which then created this thread....

I would say I judge people then based on there most dominant trait.

If a person is homeless due to an mental illness then they are mentally ill not homeless in my book and there should be an organization for that.
If a person is homeless due to an addiction to drugs then they are not homeless in my book and there should be an orgainzation to help them with that.
If a person is homeless because he has decieded that he would rather not work and would rather live on welfare instead of taking a job at a fast food restaurant that is beneath him, I have no sympathy.

Now I am not saying the above people aren't homeless but they don't fall in my definition of homeless which I have no sympathy for.

One question I might ask though is "What prevents people from leaving this city and moving to a less costly city if they are working three jobs to make ends meet. Honest question hoping for a honest response.

I dont understand all the people that flocked here for the boom over the last 2 years and did not secure/find a place to live before deciding this is the place to be......I understand the wanting to be here for the $$$ but Im not packing up and moving anywhere if I dont have a place to live.....

You mean, to get back on topic? That's why I created a separate thread!

The same thing that makes them homeless in the first place. A person who suffers from one or more mental illnesses, and is not able to be what we would call a "productive" member of society, is hardly able to plan and execute a move to another city. That also takes money....and when your biggest concern is your next meal, planning a big move is low on the priority list!


That is definitely confusing to me, as well. But I will say, I think those people are generally not homeless for long. Those are the ones with the capacity (and often the motivation) to move away from the situation(s) they find themselves in. I know a few of them myself--people who need to stay at the Drop-In Centre or Mustard Seed, while working full-time jobs, to save up for the first few months' rent/down payment/etc.

What do most people REALLY know about homelessness? Not much. There are lots of assumptions, judgments and glib, off-the-cuff criticisms.

No I meant I agree with snappy's entire statement.....

He must've edited some of it out....

I guess in all reality though is there anywhere else that is really less costly? For an example. My parents live in Rimbey and always have..( Little little town north of Sylvan Lake)

To buy a house you are looking at $360.000-400.000. And to rent you are still looking at 1000+. Even outside of Alberta is far from cheap. Thje cheapest place to live WAS Newfoundland but no work. But even then they are starting to rebound. Sooo long story short i don't think that is the solution either.

Don't get me wrong my husband is working in the boom and always has been apart of that.But i guess thats why it is easier for me to look at the downside that if something happens we are in a world of trouble. His whole career is based on the oilpatch( Electrical Engineer) So if the economy crashes then we are in trouble and could very we'll end up homless,car less and trying to figure out what to do now.Everybody has a sad story. And not everyone can pull themselves out of that story and it becomes a novel.But that does not give us the right to look down on them as they are panhandling for a cup of coffee or coming out of a shelter. Because what you may not see is that person coming out of the homless shelter is on there way to work but just can't afford a home.

Everyone living on the street has an issue. Do you really think they like to live out there? When it is -50 outside and they are trying to just survive the night.When they are hungry with nothing to eat. When they want to talk with someone but nobody wants to listen.I think they would much rather be living in a home somewhere but life has dragged them down and they just can't get back up.

Well as I said the mentally ill would not be considered homeless as there defining characteristic by my definition. I mean from the people that BC564 alluded to. They should just move elsewhere. No point having a job if you can't afford to pay the bills with it.

As for the assumptions, of course we make assumptions. People fill in what they don't know with what they have heard. And usually what they have heard is based on stereotypes and usually those stereotypes are based off some truth. Hence all homeless people are alcoholic bums who should get a job and quit being a leech on society. Obviously this isn't true, but I don't care to research the stats and neither do most people.

People who standout and try to make people aware are those who work in the industy and see it first hand. I don't and I don't think I would want to. That's just me.

I agree with that...but also....your painting all homeless with the same brush when we all know each one has there own story....and not all of them are tragic....some are choice....

Not sure who you are agreeing with but I agree with you.

I can see where your coming from.. but Im one of the people that has to deal with this aspect on a daily basis. I manage apartment buildings. I have 3 buildings downtown and DAILY I clean up after these guys. Needles.. blood..crapping in the doorways.. stealing anything that isnt nailed down.. and usually distroying what cant be stolen and pulling garbage out of the bins so they can sort thru it for recycling.
And then just the noise factor of dozens of shopping carts rattleing full of cans and bottles in and out of my parking lots all day and night. I call that trespassing. Would you guys that own your houses put up with me strolling up your driveways and going thru your household trash in the middle of the night? And here in Victoria its not just the homeless and the mentally ill.. word has gotten out that its easy here.. most of these people are younger.. and able to work that I see.. I have a brother like that. Working gets in the way of his drinking.. and he would rather drink and get high.. so he does. And so these people sit on the corner all day and ask me for MY money I work for.. then as soon as it gets dark they break out the window in my car and steal even more.. I have no answers,, all I am saying is Im tired of it.

Well, there's homelessness and then there's crime. Two different things.

I don't think you can really *get* homelessness until you've experienced it or been down in the trenches with it. Maybe I'm wrong on that. But it seems like so many people, who have no real practical experience with homelessness, relentlessly hold onto these innacurate assumptions.

These people need guidance nobody taught them the right way to have a good life nobody made them stubborn enough to put up a good fight and not give up and as far as addiction goes you can take them away from their element and put them into detox but you also need to give them a reason to stay away from the drugs alot of homeless people have just plain given up hope and find it easier to live an unstructured life to me this is due to a lack of will power and just plain lazyness I do however have no problem sparing a buck or two here or there
but for me i just find it easier to be guaranteed a pay cheque than to hope for somebodys loose change or discarded pop cans as far as prostitution goes these people need to learn to respect themselves before anybody else will respect them :sigh,

The homeless exist in the large numbers that they do because we enable them to. The multitude of services that are funded by our tax dollars and donations allow them to continue this way of life. By removing a large amount of natural selection our society has created this problem.

You make sleeping on the street sound like the "lap of luxury" , like it is a pleasant thing that everyone secretly wants to do but doesn't dare try it :lol: .
I seriously doubt that most of the people sleeping on the street do so because they want to (Note I said most, there are some stange people that actually might want to be there)

*EDIT* And I do interpret "homeless" to mean the people who really have no where to go after the funs over, not the juvenile delinquents who vandalize the neighbourhood and then go home to dinner

Sorry i didnt mean that they want to be in that situation. I meant that for example, if there was no dropin shelter for them to keep warm when it is -40C, there would be less of the homeless. They would either try harder to change thier situation, or die.

Now that is just a tad harsh :eek: not to mention one has to take in to account the cost of collecting the bodies and disposing of them and the man hours involved identifying and then hunting down the mothers so they can be told what happened to their son/daughter

It does sound harsh. I am sure that the costs involved with collecting bodies and notifying next of kin would be minimal though. Afterall, a bum can only die once, unless it's one of those super-human zombie bums. It's keeping them alive that costs the big bucks.

Are you kidding me???:twised:
You seriously need to take a good look in the mirror and hope to god that nothing bad ever happens in your life that puts you in that situation.

So you are saying that all people on the street should just die so it all goes away????
Wake up call it is not just going to go away. And i must honestly say that i am pretty sure that your comment is the most.....we'll you know its just not worth it

my two cents
 

I jumped into this thread while reading the original 'help' topic. Had to throw in my 2 cents....

We're all pretty lucky to be sitting in our warm homes on our computer discussing this issue. This tells me several things.
1 - we have the capabilities to have and maintain a home - many people don't have those capabilities (ie common sense, life skills, financial sense, etc).
2 - we are all literate - many people on the street are NOT functionally literate. Remember those kids in the 'special classes' that ended up dropping out of school? They may be part of the homeless in any city across Canada. Hard to get, and keep, a job when you can't read or write.
3 - we have the luxury of not only covering our basic needs (ie shelter, food, clothing), but we have toys, too! As in the computers we are using to have this discussion. This means we have computer skills. We were not born with this, and not everyone has them. Think back to the time you had to learn how to turn a computer ON. Now think how you would function in society if you'd dropped out of school, couldn't read or write, and had never used a computer before.

Throw in a history of something like childhood abuse, and your prospects dwindle to nothing...

As for addictions - any of you tried to quit smoking cigarettes? Imagine if that addiction caused you to live on the streets? Ie if you smoked, you didn't work or have a home. Be thankful that you don't have the addictions that could waste your life. We have been blessed, and we should not knock those who have not been so blessed....

I work downtown, and know you can't lump 'the homeless' into one category. There are those who choose to panhandle because they make good money. There are those who are hopelessy addicted, and cannot function in our society. There are those who are mentally ill and thanks to King Ralph's health care cuts, have no beds in an institution that would care for them. Anyone who uses the Plus 15s would recognize a few people from that last category - they walk the Plus 15s all day and you KNOW they should be institutionalized.

As I said - it's wonderful that we can sit in our warm homes, on our fancy computers, and discuss this issue...my two cents.

Woooooow. I'm not even sure how to respond. :neutral: Maybe this isn't good for my mental state right now. I'll respond later when I've pulled my jaw back off the floor.

I like to know the situation of the homeless person before passing judgment.

For example I knew a girl in high school that had the perfect life. Great parents, straight A student, lots of friends until gr.10. About half way through she started dating a guy who got her hooked on drugs and from there everything went downhill for her. I know her friends and family tried for a long time to get her help but she didn't want any part of it, I felt bad for her situation but I never understood how or why she couldn't take the help being offered to her to get her life back on track. It was really hard for me to see someone who had so much going for her throw it all away for the next high.

One of the sadder stories I know of was of this one homeless man. He lived on the streets because he was terrified to go inside buildings. When he was eight years old his house caught on fire and he watched his family burn to death, mother, father, and older brother. A firefighter pulled him out from under his mother and although he had 3 degree burns he lived through the ordeal. However this event traumatized him for life and now as an adult he is to scared to go inside buildings.

There are a lot of sad situations out there but then there are also success stories. Anyone who has seen "The pursuit of happiness" (which is based on a true story, and the guy who the movie is based on does a cameo in it at the end of the movie) knows that with some hard work and some training you can get yourself out of a bad situation.

Besides the harshness of this quote I wonder what percentage would try harder and what percentage would pass along to the next life. By helping all, you help the people who abuse the system along with the rest. I just hope that the rest way outnumbers the abusers. I cannot fathom spending money on slackers.

I deal with homelss on a daily bais as well when they relieve themselves in our office building stairwell and sleep in the halls. And yes this isn't a part of being homeless but more homeless do these types of crimes than anyone else.

How do you help the ones that really need it without helping the others that turn to crime. Answer me that and I will help.

I just don't understand, How is sleeping on the street "abusing the system" . Someone who is on unemployment and not reporting income from a current job is "abusing the system"...Someone, trying to stay warm, huddled in a doorway with inadequate clothing in the pooring rain is not "abusing the system"
The sad fact of the situation is that most people find the homeless "unemployable" how do you get a job with no fixed address, no bank account, no official iD and unable to read or write

Wow i cant believe im just finding this now. and man has it taken off. good thing too now i dont sound like such a heartless punk. or at least im not the only 1.

YOU ALWAYS HAVE A CHOICE................

even if you choose not to Decide you still have made a choice. "RUSH"

My brother an i are both adopted but whn he was afetus his mother was a crack additct is it strange he is now fighting for his 2clean year?

granted he was more than likley born addicted he had no addiction to it until some ******* put a pipe in his face. he made this decision.

He also made the choice that it wsa geting out of hand and destoying his family so he Chose to clean up rather then end up on the street.

DRUGS ARE AN EXCUSE NOT A REASON.

So I am sitting in my comfortable chair, in my warm house, cherishing in my luxuries. What have I done for the homeless in Calgary?. What have you, any of you done in your area?.
I give to a local church and a select few charities that I feel are a partial solution to this and many other of our societies problems.
So I want to do more.

Lets do the Workopolis advertisement: reverse engineer where we are at in our lives to where we would be if we were homeless. By breaking this down to its lowest denominators we can engineer creative solutions.

(A possible solution) In a democratic society everyone will have different solutions.(I) would like to see on every tax form how you would like to spend 5% of your taxes (in your area) on the homeless.

How would you spend in your area 5% of your taxes on the homeless?

1) police
2) shelters
3) work projects
4) prisons
5) hospitals
6) spiritual guidance

I would choose 3 as I believe the lowest common denominator for a productive life is work.

This was just to take this conversation to a new level so we could come to solutions not accusations.

Kevin

i agree work project would be best but if i got to chose it would goto hospital. this is just my own personal experiences of going threw chemo at 22.(MEDI CARE a whole new ball of wax)

Plus you know they wouldnt give up money so this would require a raise in taxes. or they could have left the gst at 7%

As far as giving to charity i used to give to most canvasers. but now who know where your money is going ! its a shame that a few bad apple can ruin the bunch.

.

Yah, scary shite. That dude freaks me out.

I hate when I have to work downtown. I also hate 17th Ave and the uninvited window washers. I like blasting on the horn just before they touch down, when you have already said no.

I hate the downtown parkades with elevators that have crap and blood on the walls.

I pretty much think we all have a right to feel safe.

My brother did some computer help work at the Mustard Seed, there are some who want to get past their current dilemma for sure.

However, I wouldn't want this in my neighborhood either.

http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/RTGAMA...calgary.ctv.ca

The problem is that most people only think about when it inconveniences them. Or when they feel threatened because someone's sleeping in a stairwell, etc.

There's a difference between crime and homelessness. There's also a difference between annoying people on the street....and homelessness.

I just recently read a province-wide study that was conducted over 4 years, and surveyed young men living on the street, who used prostitution/sexual exploitation as a means for survival. Almost 86% of them left home because of abuse. Most of them started trading sex for shelter, food or clothes. Drugs sometimes became an issue, sometimes did not. Did they CHOOSE to leave home and make their way on the streets? Yes. Sure....if you call that a choice. Did they CHOOSE to have abusive families? No. Did they CHOOSE to do something about it and leave? Does that show a hidden resilience? A strength?

YES.

So that's where I'm coming from. Find that hidden resilience/strength as a starting point. Criticizing and making idiotic generalizations is not only pointless, but insulting.

And maybe I feel particularly passionate about this, because I've devoted the last half decade to it. I can tell a new story every single day....and to hear it wrapped up tidily in such superficial ways is insane to me!

Personally, I would like to see the homeless have more public toilets made available. I think this could be a good thing.

This way, I don't have to see some woman squat down to have a crap when I am taking my grandchildren to the zoo.

Nor would I have to walk through it in high heels from a parking lot in Inglewood.

I feel the compassion....for your high heels.

OMG what is wrong with this. It is a subsidized housing complex? Everyone wants them off the street but they don't want them in there neighbourhood. Its the vicious circle...we want them off the street,but they can't get off the street without affordable housing,so we set up affordable housing but we don't want it in our neighbourhood.Where are they supposed to live in the booneys?

Subsidized housing means a few different things. They are either employed and just need some help when it comes to rent(gee do you think in Alberta) Or they have a physical or mental health issue and they are on a program like AISH.

I agree with the fact that people who moved to Alberta to enjoy the "boom" Should have researched alot more before they came. BUT they do not deserve to live on the streets with there families. And what about the people who were born and raised Albertans that have been pushed out of there homes by over bearing and money hungry lanlords that thought it would be okay to raise the rent 1000.00 at a time. What about them???

I can tell you about them...They are the casulties of our "BOOM" They are the ones that have gotten lost in our system. And they are the ones who will suffer the consequences in more ways then everyone thinks. Then starts in the severe deppression as they have nothing. Then regular run of the mill people like you and i have mental health issues. And it just spirals from there.

Like really people we all want to point a finger but no one wants to do anything about it but whine and complain.Do what ever you need to do but don't bring it to my back yard?How is that a solution to the problem.

I've been working in the downtown core for the past decade. After all this time I see the same people on the same corners begging for money after ll these years. The current system is not working, but I don't have the answers on how to fix it.

I really don't think Broncos plan of giving them all a place to live is going to make a difference.

I agree that there are a lot of mental health issues in the homeless community.

Speaking of walking the plus 15's I assume you are talking about the one dude that wears the brown work overalls and jacket? That guy is lucky to be alive as during the summer he tends to walk in traffic, last summer he came within literally 2" of being a splatter on my bush guard.. scared the crap out of me!!

Sometimes persisted substance addiction is not choice. When an individual attempts to quit, they normally lapse into what is known as a withdrawl phase.

During this phase of abstinence, they experience a variety of symptoms both somatic and psychological and as a result, they regain substance use to take away these symptoms.

This is why addictions are hard to dissolve; you always have to consider the negative feedback that occurs. So for those that only talk about addiction superficially, albeit shallowly accurate, you guys need to learn more about it before presuming what addiction really is.

An example of a family member is not proof, it's an illustration.

There are actually a few that I see - one talks to himself constantly, another almost giggles constantly, and then there's a really sad looking young man dressed all in black - one look in his eyes and you know he's really not there. It breaks my heart, because this is someone's child. And he needs to be institutionalized. I can't imagine he ever showers, and I can't imagine where he sleeps or obtains food.

I also see the 'regulars' who sit on the corners and panhandle. They are usually clean, and appear to be well fed. Instead of dropping money in their hats, I am a monthly contributor to the United Way - half my contribution goes to shelters, the other half to addiction programs.

For anyone who hasn't seen it - there is a couple from Vancouver who put together a Homeless Wish List for Christmas. It was a fantastic idea - they obtained personal stories from each individual, along with their 'wish list'. Many of them simply wanted a clean pair of socks, or bus tickets. By reading their stories, you realize that these are individuals, and they ended up where they are from a wide variety of causes. I was especially saddened by the number of men who ended up on the street because they could not get past a divorce, the loss of their family, their home, etc. Our own coping skills are not something we should ever take for granted...

There were also many cases of mental illness, such as schizophrenia. Please don't tell me someone CHOSE to be born with that.

Every individual case of homelessness is just that....some are similiar....some arent even close....some make a bad choice and some are dealt it....but either way we arent going to do anything here except argue over each others individual opinions which really....we are all right.....no buddy's opinion is better then anyone elses......some are harsh...some are more sympathetic.....some deal with it and some avoid and ignore it....we could pick pretty much any topic and argue over it because we will all have a different opinion on it....and it will get heated and then it all starts.....

I dont know what the answer is for homelessness.....but from most of the homelessness that I have seen....somewhere along their life path....a bad decision was made and it all spirals out of control from there.....can they make it back?...Im sure some can....but Im also sure some dont want to....not saying they chose to be homeless...but some chose not to work...and sorry...homeless comes with that...

Part of that reason is because there are:

1. Ignorants that think they know about the topic.

2. Mildly informed people that have preconceptions about the topic.

3. Not necessarily educated people that work in the "industry," but have done sufficient research to understand many dimensions of the topic.

Unfortunately, a large part of well-meaning, mature adults fit into the 2nd category. Most have not bothered to go beyond their personal experiences and what the media broadasts. Furthermore, they can only make superficially accurate assumptions based on the aforementioned items.

I mean, man, when you read scholarly journals as well and statistical results regarding deviance and social reintegration, you'll lose alot of preconceptions that you might have had prior.

It's not about blaming fault on those that don't spend hours reading peer reviewed journal articles, but that's just the fact of the matter when it comes to analyzing what most people know in regards to things we see everyday.