Heartbreak hotel
 

My latest casualty.... and maybe a new record. Not even two weeks in my system and it's kicking off ... Wednesday will be 2 weeks and the rate this guy is dissolving I'll be surprised if there's anything left by then.

With flash, doesn't look too bad at first. But this should be a hairy millepora, the lack of polyp extension is pretty evident.
http://members.shaw.ca/hobiesailor/a...heartache1.jpg

Without flash, same angle as above, the damage is more evident:
http://members.shaw.ca/hobiesailor/a...heartache2.jpg

Another view, from underneath looking up, even more evident how badly it's sloughing off tissue:
http://members.shaw.ca/hobiesailor/a...heartache3.jpg

The worst part is that there's an acro crab in there which I suspect will be a goner when the coral goes.

I'm not sure what's up with this phenomenon. I've invested heavily, both heavily and emotionally, into testing equipment to try to nail down a potential cause. Ultimately, I moved into my house in 2004 and I've never been able to keep an SPS alive ever since. It's the most demoralizing thing. People who complain about brown SPS have no idea how jealous I am of them ... I'd take brown over dead.

Parameters:
Ca = 400
Alk = 3.4 meq/l (~9.5 dKH)
NO3 = 5ppm
PO4 = <0.04

Not really the smoking gun one would hope for.

Really not sure what the next step is. I wish I knew what I was doing wrong...

Just to show that there was once a day where I thought I knew what I was doing when it came to SPS, here's a FTS of my 75g taken in January 2004 shortly before I moved.

http://members.shaw.ca/hobiesailor/a...kshots/75g.jpg

Sigh, the good old days. :(

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What kills SPS but leaves all other corals alone?

I guess if there were any significant levels of heavy metal the other corals would be dead right now as well. Or would they? What if you had a toxin in there that was at a low enough level that it doesn't really affect your softies, but still high enough to affect the more sensitive SPS? I don't really have anything to back this up with, it's just a theory, but if anyone else wants to chime in we might get this figured out.

I wish I could help... I'm sure you've gone over this in your own mind hundreds of times.

You're right, I don't see anything deadly in those water parameters. Not listed are: SpG, Temperature...but I'm sure you have those in control.

That leaves me with Lighting, Flow, some sort of element deficiency, or some sort of toxic contaminant/bacterial/viral agent.

None of this has been helpful to you at all...sorry.

I'm sort of wondering if it could be bacterial. Sort of like the brown jelly that usually attacks Euphyllia? But I have no idea, just a grasp on my part.

FWIW, I run my SG at 1.025 and temperature I try to keep at 26C (about 78-79F I think? If I have my conversions straight).

It is pretty uniformly SPS across the board. Softies, LPS (well, actually, I don't have many LPS. But I do have a bubble coral, and two Blastomussa's), anemones, and clams don't seem to be an issue.

This is now spanning two different systems. But one thing the two systems have in common are some rather large anemones. Two gigantea carpets in one tank, and one ridiculous ritteri in the other. It feels a bit of a desperate grasp though, to me, as there are tanks out there with these species with SPS that seem to do well.

I'm no expert on sps but... My tank is mainly dominated by softies but I do have a few lps and sps that seem to be doing quite well. Do you run carbon or phosphate remover of any kind? I believe carbon and even phosphate removers can help remove organic toxins. Ialways try to have atleast some carbonin my tank.(thats actually the only mechanical filteration I use) I know that softies can excrete a fair bit of toxins which can be potentially harmful to sps. Sorry I can't offer anything else.

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How would you be able to determine if you had such an invader in your tank? I wonder if you could send a water and sand/rock sample to a lab for analysis? You know, someone who knows what to look for.

Luck of the draw
 

I have ventured into a few sps .Some do good/some turn brown some die.Asked Jaws about this and said luck of the draw so I dont think it is anything you do.

A few potential causes (I fought off sleep and read through several gargantuan threads on RC!):

1) High (organic) phosphates?
2) New house, new area, new water source/water treatment plant? Some use Chloramine?
3) Salt mix. Did you switch salt mixes? I just read that some salt brands are using many times the natural amount of Borate in order to keep the mix in solution. As I understood/read it, high levels of Borate skew test readings for Alkalinity (ie. the true dKH will be much lower).

Try adding some poly-filter... supposed to absorb a wide variety of stuff. Might help...

The water thought occured to me too. But wouldn't RO/DI deal with chloramine if it was present?

Interesting about the borate/alkalinity connection .. hmmmm, will have to do some reading on that one. I'm right now using a bucket of Kent, was using IO before that. I've sort of bounced between IO and Kent over the years.

I have run carbon off and on. When I do run it, I have a small amount in a Phosban reactor and try to change it out every week or two. Also, same with the Phosban, I do have some on right now. I'm not sure how to tell when it's time to change it out. People say they change it out when their phosphate levels start going up, I have yet to detect an upward trend when I test PO4. I'm never sure if this means PO4 is OK, or just if my test methods are inadequate. Maybe it's time to buck up and pay a lab to do a chemical workup, if for no other reason than I can maybe express some confidence in the #'s I do come up with. :neutral:

I'm no expert, not even close, but it really blows my mind that you can keep some really nice clams happy and healthy but you have problems with SPS. Is that little cube you have with the carpets plumbed into the same tank?

Hi Greg, it is plumbed together.

This coral in particular though went into my ritteri tank which isn't plumbed into that system. But there's enough transfer back and forth (feeding, or moving a coral over from one tank to another) that if it was, say a pathogen such as a protozoa or a bacteria that it couldn't just hitchhike over and "infect" the other tank. (I hope I'm way off base on this theory though.)

It should deal with it.....but how old are your filters? And what type of carbon filter do you have on there? I've read about the difference between catalytic carbon vs. granular activated carbon (the former being better for chloramine removal).

Just some thoughts....maybe it's your RO/DI filters?

Are you sure its not allelopathy (sp?).With so many people having trouble growing sps I think chemical warfare is a bigger problem then people realize.
In my old 75g tank, I put a cabbage leather into the tank, within a few hours my turbinara closed up and stayed that way for 4 days no matter where in the tank I put it. After doing a large water change and running carbon with no success I removed the leather and the next morning the polyps were all back out on the cup coral. Too big of a coincidence to not blame the cabbage leather.

We tell beginners to start with the easy soft corals before moving on to sps. I wonder how many fail at having an sps tank of their dreams because of our advice. Maybe we should be telling them if they are planning on having an sps tank, to start with montipora.

That's exactly what I was thinking Marie.

I know when I started with SPS I still had a cabbage coral and a toadstool Leather. I could not get any SPS to survive in my tank. I finally removed and softies and boom success.

J

I can't be sure it's not allelopathy. But it's not quite that easy. I don't really keep a lot of softies. About a half dozen zoanthid colonies and some patches of GSP (hitchhiker's that came in on something). And for what it's worth, all were introduced well after this phenomenon began. Coming into this, I was an SPS guy. I only have non-SPS now because I grew tired of having an empty tank. Look at my tank picture from 2004 - the only softies are a patch of green zoanthids about 30-40 polyps in size. All those corals you see - all have since perished. Also there are many many tanks out there with both SPS and zoanthids, and for that matter, with more colonies and/or larger colonies than what I have.

I still haven't ruled out the anemones however. But ... it's not a slam dunk there either. Look at Cprowlers' tank, or Gary M.'s tank over at RC ... several others on RC that I correspond with have the same species but not this problem.

Maybe try taking the acro out (if it's not too far gone) and puting it into a bucket of fresh mixed salt water with a powerhead, heater and a light of some kind on top

I don't think a person can measure success by how many mixed tanks work but by measuring how many mixed tanks fail

To be honest I don't think it could be anything else. You've measured for everything else and everything is where it should be. Therefore it is something you can't measure for and with all the other inhabitants being healthy and growing it isn't something toxic (to them)

I've had a large carpet anemone with my SPS for years and years. The anemone absolutely kills any SPS that it comes into direct contact with...but if there is no direct contact, there is no issue.

This gets my vote.

FWIW this coral pictured is in an isolated tank now (the pictures were taken a day after it was moved into a 20g - the only thing it shares the tank with are an abalone, some cowries and the patch of zoos you see - which I threw in the tank a couple of weeks ago as a sort of canary to let me know if it's cycled or not). It might be too late though.

I actually gave up on the idea of ever putting SPS into my 75g. This coral was put into a separate system, which is why the same symptoms really surprised me. I was really hoping for a different outcome. Let's face it, my ritteri tank is actually quite void of diversity. 3 fish, 2 clams (well, 4, 2 are being babysat), and then some GSP that hitchhiked on a rock one of the clams is attached to.

But, I recently moved a Platygyra out of the 75g into the 115g because it was receding in the 75g, in the hopes to stem that loss. And there are plenty of other things that I do (ie. use the same turkey baster to feed), that for a pathogen would make for a convenient pathway to cross-contaminate the tanks. I know I'm reaching on this, but I do really wonder if there's something to this.

"Fail" is such a strong term BTW. I don't know if I consider my tanks as completely failed even if they can't support SPS. There are plenty of other things about them that aren't all doom and gloom. There's just.... "room for improvement" shall we say. Ok, no, I guess they're partially failed. :( Sigh. I did call this thread "heartbreak" for a reason.

Your right it is a stong term and I only use it to describe what some people strive for and never seem to attain, a totm sps dominant tank.

I personally am not too impressed with sps and the only reason my 175g has them is because they are the only things that can tolerate an angel nipping at them and still look colourful.

If I had my way the tank would be full of lps, clams and zoas. Even softies have more going for them then these fuzzy sticks that I have :mrgreen:

I think I have been fighting this problem for years. I call my setup a mixed reef. Generally speaking it is just the progression for starting in salt water with softies then moving to LPS and finally saying I think I am ready to give these SPS corals a go.

I have not changed my rock or eliminated any of the original softies or SPS. I have sold and traded a number of them to make room for the SPS. I have also grown to like the look.

On the other hand I have continually fought with the SPS trying to get the results I see in so many of my friends fabulous SPS tanks. Their Colours, polyp extension and general well being are what I strive for yet never obtain. My tanks look good to most people, however I just do not get the results I am looking for. The madding thing is I have a 180G and 125G plumbed to the same sump. I am running the same water through both systems. The 180G is 5 years old and made up of my original salt water progression, it has a 1 1/2" sand base and one hugh Toad Stool. My 125G is 2 years old Bare Bottom and only the remnants of softies left on the rocks taken from the main tank. The SPS in it generally have full polyp extension. I have noticed that lately the polyp extension has become somewhat less but is still more than the 180G. At the same time many of the softy remanent have developed into colonies of cabbage and sinularia.

More and more I believe in chemical warfare as being the cause. It is either that or I am just not able to keep SPS. (some people are gardener and some are not)

Tony, So was this system just finished the cycle when the Milli was put in it?

I'll make you a deal Tom, you can have all my corals and rock in exchange for new clean live rock :mrgreen: .


Oh and you have to take my foxface and regal angel as well :razz:

Well Marie I will have to give this some thought. Is there a time limit on the offer?

Tom R

Hi Jason, I sure hope so. I've only been monitoring nitrates but there has been a reduction in the initial levels.

But to be clear, I only moved it in there a couple days ago. It was in a different system before that. You know how sometimes when you put your hand in the water, some SPS will slime up a little and you see it as sort of a stringy aura around the coral? This guy was doing that within 3 days of having been purchased, except without me putting my hands in the tank to trigger it. I was just hoping that it was just adjusting to something but it just seemed to worsen.

I moved it on the off chance that there was something in that tank that was bothering it, ie., doing nothing would have ensured that nothing changed. So although moving it into this new tank may be a mistake in and of itself, at least I felt I "was doing something about it."

Who knows, I mean, sometimes a coral just doesn't make the transition from ocean to captive life and this is nothing more than that. It's just that .. I've seen this progression now so often it's driving me crazy. Sometimes a piece will do well for months on end, and grow really well too, then suddenly, bam, it's number comes up. Others are like this and basically succumb more or less instantaneously. To be honest it's the ones that do well for a little while and then suddenly let go, that truly mystify me, more so than the ones that don't do well right off the bat (those ones just confirm to me that "Yep ... something is still not right here." The other ones will make me think I've turned the tide, then I'll go buy some more pieces, and then bam, the phenomenon returns and I'm left wondering why I didn't just learn my lesson and pass over the pieces in the store).

I have always had some zoos and GSP in with SPS, no issues. I have not mixed leathers and such though. I did have a time when things didn't do well, and I decided it was a vibrio outbreak and treated with antibiotics for that. The tank turned around after the treatment. This shows that sometimes it's something that can't be measured, so don't assume because the salifert kits say everything is good that it actually is. Lots of things affect a closed environment that are beyond our abilities to assess.

For years been reading from people like Calfo and Fenner amongst others that mixed reef don't work long term because of allelopathy. Everything goes great for a few years then systems crash for no apparent reason.

Even just with different softies believe is a issue. For a while my tank was over run with Xenia to the point was throwing it out, got into a few different types of mushrooms and zoos and the Xenia just started to fade away. Around the same time had some Alk spikes so was thinking that, but alk been under control for quite some time. Seems once I started being steady on the carbon the Xenia at least is staying though not growing as before. If only had the will to stop changing things to narrow causes down.

I see an opportunity. What we need is a CSI Reef Center. It would be interesting if we could take a sample of our water to get a full breakdown analysis of its make up or DNA. This may be available already but at what cost and where.

Tom R

What were the symptoms that made you think vibrio?

I'll do some reading on that. I'm reading a few threads on RC where people have theorized about pathogens, so it seems I'm not alone on this one after all. But how can you tell? I'm rather uncomfortable with the notion of an antibiotic treatment, or at least proceeding on something based on an uneducated guess.

It sounds to me that the coral, when in the origonal system was defending itself from something. If it was sliming up. Either that or just like you said just didn't make the transition well.

Why not try some Frags. Start off with digitata. Stuff a phosban reactor full of Carbon and run it 24/7 then add a frag or 2.

Check back to when Gools was TOTM and check his tank load, HUGE LPS and also HUGE SPS, tonnes of growth on both, and even softies from time to time (including an overflow encased in GSP), the only items he didn't have which you do Tony is Clams and Anemones.

BTW, I'm not discounting allelopathy as a phenomenon in general, but I am skeptical that it is the cause here. There was a time people skoffed at my suggestions that chemical warfare is happening in our tanks, but nowadays I feel like I'm on the other side of that debate - too often people scream "chemical warfare" or "allelopathy" when something is happening that we can't easily rationalize away. In general, mixed garden type reef tanks do not work well long term because of this. However, I don't really consider what I have to be mixed reefs.

Let me explain myself a little more. At various points in the past 3 years, I have had my tanks completely devoid of corals. The only steadfast inhabitants I've had through this time period now are the fish. I already have the anemones isolated from one another because that I beleive that they will interact without direct contact.

Therefore if it was an allelopathy issue, it should have been impacted by these fallow periods... but it was not. I ran SPS only for the longest time and did well by it until approximately 8 months after I moved. One other thing that I may not have mentioned yet, is that one other thing that leads me to suspect this could be more pathogenic in nature, is that it all started happening after I traded frags with someone. The frags that were acquired in that trade never did well and eventually all perished (despite rampant growth in my other SPS). However, it just seemed that whatever happened to them, would start happening to other SPS, one by one. Until the point was reached where I noticed that all my corals were just not looking the same as before. To an untrained eye things looked great. When the Intermamerican folks came by to deliver my 280g, they made the comment that I had one of the nicest SPS reefs that they had ever seen. I felt honored by the comment but I had this nagging suspicion at the time that things were not right (just based on week to week observations). Within months of that point I had an empty tank, well, basically, a fish-only.

I also think allelopathy would just have a more "random" feel to it. This is rather specific, repeatable and ... I don't know how to say it. "Thorough?" "Complete?" I mean, it's 100%, all you need is to give something enough time.

What worries me is that I'm setting up a new tank, and if it's something that can transfer ... then I'm in a world of hurt. In time, there will be transfer into the new system. Fish will be moved, clams will be moved ... this can't happen without water making the trip with them. If there's something in that water ... I need to find a way to manage that aspect. Well, first to confirm, then to manage I guess.

What are your plans with the 180, are you going to transfer everything from your 75G or are you starting it from scratch? That may be the true test in the long run if it can keep SPS alive.

I don't know a lot about it but you always hear the term "old tank syndrome" thrown out there, I don't know if there is really an explination for it, or if it is just something that is suggested when an old tank seems to start going wrong.


- LOL you must have been editing your post as I was writing mine.. I think you already answered by question :p

Tony, I think its karma. You need to get the big tank going. :mrgreen:
Honestly I have no idea what the problem could be.

?????????
 

Tony,
I am not sure what to tell you, I thought you were on the rebound. I have leathers, gorgonians, zoos, mushrooms, gsp, 20 varieties of LPS and a wack of sps all in the same display. Also plumbed into the same system are 2 other tanks, 1 mostly softies and then my frag prop tank with mostly sps. There has to be more to this story that we are not considering. Are you running carbon? if so, how much and how often do you change it? Are you getting a good enough flow? But even with that, for a mille to slime for days on end is something I have never seen so I conclude there is definately an issue with the water.
Here's a story, I am very sensitive to chemicals and we lived in a house only 3 blocks from where we were living in Acadia. We lived there for three years and during that time I was sick way more than usual or ever before. Anyway, we sold the place 11 years ago & moved to where we are now and my health greatly improved and went back to normal. Is it possible that somehow your house is located near something that could cause problems? Something in the walls, type of insulation, etc? Who knows? I attributed my health issues to a small natural gas terminal that was a few blocks down from where we lived although nobody else around seemed affected by it. Here's another example: I heard of an individual in the States that after months of grief finally tore his whole system apart and found a tarnished penny in the back of his rock work. I guess some kid used his reef as a wishing well during a visit from relatives and it started killing things. I know it sounds like a wierd long shot but given your vast experience & expertize in the hobby and the fact that it has only been a problem since you moved, it just makes me wonder what else it can be. Sometimes there is just something in the air. Can you rig up a carbon filter for your skimmer's air intake? Like I said I know it sounds odd but it might be worth a try.

I think this is the next logical step. I'll give you some frags to experiment with.

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Sounds like an experiment would be in order. I'll donate some caps frags if you want.

As tempted as I am to blame the house or the new location, that of course opens the door to more sinister questions like is it even safe to live in it? :eek: I would hope that this part is OK.

I'm actually not running carbon right now. I can always put some on though, guess it can't hurt. I'm sort of wondering if running UV might be something to look into.

Old tank syndrome is also something I've thought about. I think that this is a mix of both "documented and explainable buildups/depletions" and "something we just throw out there when we can't come up with any other plausible explanation." Ultimately there is so much going on at a level we can't really perceive it's really hard to come up with simple one-tiered approaches to problem solving.