Bit of a Vent
 

Just wanted to say a couple of things.

I have noticed more and more complaints about the cost of things in this hobby...I can't really place blame as I was one of those ranting a couple of years ago when I got into this hobby.

However,

First, I must say that personally, I definitely run at a loss..I know that for a fact, I have lost over $ 10,000 this year alone trying to give people the prices that I do.
Maybe now that my dollar is worth more when I buy from my supplier, I may actually break even.
I personally do what I do because I enjoy this hobby and I like helping people out.
However, If I needed to suport my family off what I sell, I would definitely have to increase my prices...to at least double to what I sell for to make a decent amount of money...
So when I look at the stores that do charge more, I can actually understand why.
I really don't see many fish store owners driving around in new cadillacs or BMWs...and if they do, good for them...
(my limo company bought my escalade and my town car..definitely not the fish)
these supposed merciless companies that people rant and rave about aren't making millions...they are trying to make a decent living.. and so they should as they put everything on the line to start up a business and hope it works.

you know what, if you wanted to be cheap, you picked the wrong hobby...and if you don't like it, get out of it..or buy from the states and see the headaches that can sometimes come with it.

I honestly don't know how places like Golds, J&L, OA's and hidden reef are actually able to keep their doors open with the great prices they offer and it must be strictly pure quantity that keeps it going....(great job you guys and please keep it up)...they have very similiar prices to those of the states.

Most online stores in the US don't have the costs of a actual store and most of them drop ship as well...this greatly reduces the costs of things and allows them to reduce the prices.

if you think that our price difference is bad, go to europe...everything costs twice as much there as it does here.

different prices are charged for different things around the world..that is just the way it is.

so personally I say, enough is enough.
we all have our own reasons for buying where we buy.
if you don't like it...go somewhere else..
then when the local stores close down because they can't afford to keep their doors open, then I hope you like to deal with US fish and wildlife and their fees to bring the livestock across the border along with the hardware.

We all spend thousands of dollars on this hobby and yet we complain because a fish is 10.00 more in one spot more than the other.
to me, it is starting to be more about the quality that I get...than the price tag.
and I certainly know now, after a couple of years of doing this, why some store charge what they do (maybe they just want to make a living after all).
but what the heck do I know?
Neal

Neal, well said.

You do a good thing, Neal. That Crocea I got from you sure is purty :)

It's definitely an expensive hobby. I've resigned myself to that. And frankly, if it's too expensive for me (which it often is), I just don't buy it.

P.S. Mmmm, Escalade.

What Brad said ^^^ :lol:




I've tried to post something similar all day but I couldn't get it to sound nonconfrontational so I never actually got to the submit reply button.

Yeah........ well said.

I think unless you have owned or worked as a manager at a retail store ...... your not going to really know how the prices are effected.

I know that a lot of stock was bought when our dollar was lower (family friends business not related to the aquarium trade) or in some cases the business hedged against the US dollar and lost that bet when the loonie took off (my friend did that because his main customer base is in the US).

Cheers,
Aquaman

Good for you Neal.

Most of us knew that this was an expensive hobby when we started. We (on the coast) are really spoiled having several good to great LFS to shop at. I very rarely shop online because I know that I may save a little money but it can end up being a lot more hassle. And if I & other local reefers don't spend our money at places like OA, J&L, King Ed's, Coral Ocean & others, then when we need to get something quick, we'll be stuck. Also, it is a great way to blow an afternoon doing an LFS tour.

As Neal also pointed out, if its too expensive, don't buy it. Some things in this hobby I just can't justify spending that kind of cash but that's why these stores carry a wide selection. Otherwise we'd all be stuck buying a Prism or maybe a BubbleKing. Instead, we usually can find a product in the right price range to suit our needs and our budget.

Anthony

THANK YOU Neal for speaking up! I as well was too harsh in each thread/rant I wanted to start over some complaints I'm reading about price so didn't post...but this was well said, well put! Nice!!

And hey, if we all "really" cared so much about cost...we wouldn't be in the hobby. It's definately not cheap!

Interesting to see what will happen to our dollars when Amero kiks in 2010?

Speaking of venting
 

_

I applaud you efforts as well Neal but I do think we have a right to speak up, thought not about you.

Prices for live stock locally, I don't have a issue with any of the places and if I choose not to buy it's more a concern of quality.

Price of equipment is another thing. When you see stuff here that's double and sometimes more, than what I can get from J&L or OA delivered, I might not complain, but I'll just be making a phone call south. Never been personally to either J&L or OA but it's my understanding than they both have stores so we aren't really comparing apples to oranges.

I'll still support my LFS but it going only be for the $5 piece of foam rather than the pump or the new set of lights.

Skimmin, are u kidding me?

All you had to do was ask for the fish back...I would have gladly given them back.

just because you bought them for 110.00 don't blame me.
I sell them for 25.00 a piece.
therefore 30.00 for the pair is reasonable in my mind (and also about my cost wholesale)..I do try to make some money.... and you were the one that brought up the idea of me giving you the suggested store credit for the clownfish.
I brought in 3 fish in the attempt to give you what you wanted.
One of which died.
the other two were fighting for dominance as all clownfish do(especially the maroons). One was losing and had a few nicks in the fins...awww, guess those fins will never grow back eh?

I would not have brought those fish in because they are known to be aggressive and most people don't want them...but I did it to help you out...some thanks I guess.

This is also the beauty of owning my own store - Aaron, don't call me back as I won't waste my time with you in the future.

thanks for shopping at marine experience

Neal

Neal this has been ****ing me off recently too. Thankyou for saying what i wanted to say, alot nicer and more P.C. than I would have said it.

I say to anyone that has a problem with Candian aquarium retail pricing, go shop in the usa, have it shipped to you, deal with that headache. I am sure I will run into you at a store around town here very soon when you give up that endevor.

This hobby is not for the faint of heart.

It is a very expensive endeavor. You are constantly having to spend real dollars (canadian or us) just to replace lights, supplies and equipment. Then you still have to come up with money for that new and exciting fish or coral. Without our LFS it would be almost impossible for us to continue in the hobby. They not only bring in inventory (paid for on yesterdays exchange rates) that sits there waiting for the day we need it, but they also are our main sounding board for the best first hand information available. You know they have nothing better to do than stand there and explain the many options available to help solve your little algae or fish conflict problem. Oh ya sometimes they have to explain it to you more than once and then you go buy what you need from the states to save what 5 - 10%.
No I know that after 9 years in this hobby I for one would not likely be in this hobby if not for the J&L's and the OA's of the world.

Thanks guys as I really enjoy this hobby.

Tom R

Just my two cents.

The price differential does not sit at the level of the retail shop. The change needs to come at the manufacturing level.

If two of the exact same skimmer are manufactured in Germany and one is shipped to a LFS in Canada and one is shipped to a LFS in the United States with the dollar at parity and assuming that both stores have the same overhead and expected profit margin there should be no real difference in the price.

This of course should only apply to material that has been manufactured and shipped since the dollar has reached parity and it may take some time to ensure that the dollar does not vary from parity or near but in a years time I would expect to see prices on an equal footing. I know that we have to expect some differences on price based on different shipping lanes, duties and so forth.

Personally I have bought 99% of all my fish goods dry and live from local fish stores in my near three years in this hobby. I would persoanlly rather support my local retailer than even an online source like J&L. I have made a few purchases online but only becuase there were products I wanted that I could not find locally.

Underlying this is a lot of emerging (formerly repressed) resentment and anger about the long-term weakness of the C$, and how that has affected us when making purchases. Many retailers were getting skinned for years, and are reluctant to give up the gravy when they finally see some.

Also, bear in mind that many of the prices in the US will be going UP to meet us. The US dollar is falling against world currencies, not just C$. Some of the price discrepencies are the result of inventory levels in the US (old prices) not just in Canada.

The tax and duty rates, population density (market size, shipping, economies of scale), energy costs, and a host of other factors will keep Canadian prices somewhat higher than the US on a lot of items for a long time (forever)?

:mrgreen:

[quote=digital-audiophile;278851]Just my two cents.

The price differential does not sit at the level of the retail shop. The change needs to come at the manufacturing level.

If two of the exact same skimmer are manufactured in Germany and one is shipped to a LFS in Canada and one is shipped to a LFS in the United States with the dollar at parity and assuming that both stores have the same overhead and expected profit margin there should be no real difference in the price.

**********One difference I could see is Volume. Don't forget how small our population base is compared to the US. California has more people than Canada!!! I'm sure the "Big Player" vendors in the US could move volumes of product that would make our "Big player" vendors look like a joke in comparison. I run into this all the time in my industry, there are retailers down there who buy way more volume of certain product lines than we as a Distributor can buy. The cost is almost always lower with volume. So now you have US Retailers buying better than Canadian Distributors!!!! This isn't always the case, but it's not uncommon.************

howdy20012002 I agree with you completely and skimmin no offence but your very ignorant and if I was howdy I wouldn't deal with you anymore either. You wanted him to order in the maroons and he can't guarantee the shape there gonna come in or the fact you got absolutely r*ped if you payed $110 for your perculas. Him giving you $15 each is actually fairly generous as most would likely only give you $10 so if I was you I'd stop complaining and apologize cause wasn't his fault and your the one in the wrong on this one

I do not disagree with you, its all about supply and demand. I can understand differential based on the volume but not the 50%+ percent I see on many products (not just talking fish related)

Don't get me wrong, there are allot of industries growing fat off the dollar. I'm talking about this industry. I honestly think it's pretty clean....There will always be some vendors who charge more because they feel they can. Some will charge more because they have to (can't buy enough volume to get the best prices) But, if you shop around, the prices are truely good here in Canada....and will get better in time. It doesn't hurt to ask your LFS if they can match a price + shipping to your door. Sometimes they can, sometimes they can't. But at least give them the opportunity to keep you in their store. Sometimes you'll find their great service is worth a little extra too.
PS-I'm not ranting to you Digital-audiophile about supporting your LFS(sounds like you already do!)

Most of the time this isn't how it happens though. You usually can't call up a factory in Germany and say "I'd like 3 please". They're going to sell them by the pallet or not at all. This means you have to call up a wholesaler, almost always in the US, and get them from there.

Now there is another thing that comes into that with currency. USD and CAD are at par but keep in mind this has more to do with the relative weakness of USD compared to the strength of CAD. If that wholesale operation is buying from Germany they are now paying more and will pass that cost on. This is already starting to happen.

The option for local guys is to find ways to buy direct or find Canadian wholesale guys that do it. This isn't always easy or even possible though.

Originally Posted by digital-audiophile View Post
If two of the exact same skimmer are manufactured in Germany and one is shipped to a LFS in Canada and one is shipped to a LFS in the United States with the dollar at parity and assuming that both stores have the same overhead and expected profit margin there should be no real difference in the price.


I am sure that a trade agreement between the two countries and Government taxes would create a parity and produce a " real difference in the price". I lived in the US for 8 years Near Everything is cheaper except Medical Services and Prescriptions.
Kevin

I don’t disagree at all. I know that most LFS are small and are owned by private citizens, with the exception of a few and we are lucky that these big ones do not try to put the little guy out of business like a Wal-Mart would.

I don't think any Canadian has a problem with a little bit of a price differential on consumer goods but as I mentioned in another thread that when shopping for highchairs on the weekend I found them to be more than $50 more here in Calgary than they are listed in American stores. This does not make sense to me, especially considering that Calgary is in the middle of a baby boom with more than 20,000 babies being born every year I don't think a lot of US cities are experiencing these same kinds of numbers but they still pay less. Another thing is that the dollar has been at or near parity for the past few months but brand new current issue magazines still have a large differential in price on the cover. This makes no sense to me.

Although I will continue to support as much local business (remember I am talking all business not just fish) as I can because I understand the value of buying local, but in the end it comes down to the almighty dollar. I am not a rich man by any means and if I can keep a few extra dollars in my pocket by buying from the US online (especially living in an expensive inflated city like Calgary) you had better believe I am going to do it.

We live in an age of global consumerism. Even 10 years ago it was not always viable to buy from another country, but with the internet at the state it is today it encourages price shopping and more competition. I would not be able to keep my job for very long if I continued to purchase pipe from a local mill at a greater price just because they are "nice guys from Calgary" I am already working with mills in Europe and Asia because they provide a better value for the company dollar.

You know a price difference of $50 on an item worth a couple hundred wouldn't even bother me. What bothers me is where the price differential is so vast it's just ridiculous for lack of a better word.

Luckily, I find that at least in this hobby, we don't see too many cases of "let's rape the Canadian consumer". But there are easy examples in different industries:

The bike carrier I use is made by Thule. At one point, Thule was a Swedish company. I don't know if the brand still is or isn't. But the exact model I use has a MSRP of $600 in Canada. SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS. The same model in the U.S. has a MSRP of $300. How does the exchange rate of even 6 months ago to a year ago or whenever it was really bad, justify a DOUBLING of the cost? I found an ebay retailer who was selling them for $260. With taxes shipping and brokerage and with a WEAKER Canadian dollar at the time, I landed that thing to my door for less than half the Canadian MSRP. I don't mind paying a premium to keep things local but there is a point where it makes no financial sense anymore to do so.

Another example? Cars. Look at the prices of cars in Canada and the U.S. .. Again, it's just ridiculous. I know a person who bought his Subaru in the U.S. 2 or 3 years ago, could sell this 2 or 3 year old car locally here for still more than what they paid for. Absurd.

But what's really outrageous now is some companies are putting policies in place to prevent U.S. retailers to selling to Canadians. A lot of people in the media telling their stories about how they tried to buy a car and the dealerships aren't allowed to sell to them.

Bombardier takes the prize here. A Canadian company who we've subsidized with our tax dollars has said to U.S. retailers "You may not sell your products to Canadians." They say it's to protect the Canadian retailers. Even the U.S. retailers find this frustrating. The article I read in the Herald quoted one as saying "for years Americans would go to Canada and buy Sea-Doos up there because the dollar was in their favour. Who was protecting MY interests then?" In my opinion this is flat-out a policy of discrimination against Canadians which when you think about how we've paid our TAX dollars to subsidize this company is really offensive.

My apologies for the previous post. Just something that had been on my mind for a while now ... So the local business owner vented, and then the local customer vented. Neal say what you want but the way you handled yourself was not right, and those fish were beat. I'll be dealing with repuatable businesses from now on. No more out of a basement business. I have no problem if I pay top dollar for something that is really nice or out of the ordinary. But all too often I find that the justification for pricing on certain items is poor(not typically fish and corals) I don't care about an extra $50 or $100. I've spent over $10000.00 on this hobby and the majority has been local. So all I was trying to say is go ahead and charge top dollar but also offer top notch service and product quality.

my two cents worth
 

As consumers, we expect to see prices dropping because of our strong dollar compared to US when buying american goods. And, because of our strong dollar, we are looking far more aggresively at online shopping vs local.

Having said that, I bought all my saltwater equipment/supplies and livestock from a small local dealer. I did this because I feel quite strongly we should support local business whenever possible being a small business owner myself. And, secondly, the support I get from that local owner goes a long way to giving me a satisfactory experience with the hobby. I never would of attempted a saltwater tank had it not been for the advice, recommendations from this person.

I only mention this because I am a rank beginner and perhaps hobbyists who have been in it for a long while may be braver to take a risk and buy online or elsewhere. It is an expensive hobby. And I would rather go see someone face to face, discuss with that person my wants and needs, rather than spending my money with an unknown entity. I'd rather have someone tell me - nope - your not ready for this coral yet, or your water isn't quite up to keeping this animal rather than jumping in - getting something that perhaps I should of waited on and ended up killing the animal out of ignorance. Will I end up paying more for that coral or animal than elsewhere? Perhaps....but at the end of the day, I think I am still farther ahead financially if I do things right the first time.

Hey I'm one of the worst at times for paying top dollar for a high quality animal lol. Sometimes I see something that is really nice and will pay more to get it but also knowing if I do end up parting with it that I'm not likely to get anymore for it when I take it into a pet store than is the going rate so you sometimes just have to take the loss if you do part with it(wow long sentence lol). I have run into a couple pet stores that can be a bit shady at times but howdy didn't seem like he was being that way at all and he seemed willing to try and work it out to your satisfaction but you guys just didn't see eye to eye(happens sometimes).



QUOTE Skimmin;278897]My apologies for the previous post. Just something that had been on my mind for a while now ... So the local business owner vented, and then the local customer vented. I have no problem if I pay top dollar for something that is really nice or out of the ordinary. But all too often I find that the justification for pricing on certain items is poor(not typically fish and corals) I don't care about an extra $50 or $100. I've spent over $10000.00 on this hobby and the majority has been local. So all I was trying to say is go ahead and charge top dollar but also offer top notch service and product quality.[/quote]

Hi Neal, I sincerely support and understand your frustration and venting because I have a similiar business and maintenance company that we operated. I live in a small town on Vancouver island, population less than 50,000 people, and the few aquarium reef hobbyists supports mostly online or out of town. My percentage of retail is less while my maintenance clients is my living. As our town is fairly small, there is not a huge reef hobbyist here compare to larger city like the mainland. Maintenances takes me up and down the island just to make a living. I have been in this hobby for 37 years and very passionate about, I am still learning and I am not about to quit. We have spent many hours with maintenance clients just staring at their prize aquarium because they are themselves passionate about the hobby. I just took a drive around town lately and noticed many retail stores have closed down. I feel supporting your local store for whatever at a reasonable price is fair, considering where you live. We are small but we provide good service and support our local stores and local charities. Where in our town can you come by at 10:00 pm and get a 10k MH bulb in an emergency? Tonight, we just picked up 3 boxes of Bali shipment, each and every one of these livestock will be accilimated carefully, housed in a stressfree environment, fed the best quality food and trained to aquarium life and then after 6 weeks or more, will be sent to one of my maintenance client's aquarium. They will not be advertise as "new shipment in" tomorrow. We are passionate and we do care about the livestock that are placed in our hands for their well being. Neal best of luck to you sincerely. Regards Ken

Yeah this is very true! I lived in the US for a long time too (my parents are american) and everything from food to aquarium supplies to toilet paper is cheaper. Medical services are more expensive as you said but not much more really than paying MSP here in vancouver. My US insurance was really about the same and covered much the same stuff. But thats besides the point...

I know I have brought this up before but in Florida I could get a lot of the equipment I try to get here for 2/3 or half the price! As for livestock, well its not fair to compare because of geography but down in Florida I would say everything is easily half! Imagine how your tank would look if for all the money you have put into your corals, you had double the amount!

Needless to say, it was really hard to buy stuff from LFS here when I first came back. Im used to the higher prices now again but it hurts to think of how cheap it was...

Actually the funny thing about all this, is that I work here from my home in Vancouver for a Los Angeles Film Studio and get paid in US dollars...So I was going to be loosing money over this. A year ago I was making a ton because our dollar was so much weaker. Luckily they have adjusted my wage with the times but that could have been terrible!

Edit: I will always buy online from the US first though if the prices are cheaper. Shipping is often free or very cheap if you spend enough anyways. I have no idea what all the headaches people are bringing up about shipping dry goods from the US but I have never had any. These days its so simple and easy to do. You get a tracking number and can check up on your package every step of the way. You can also request a delivery time from UPS. They will always tell you that they cannot do that but if you push hard enough, they will do it. I actually had a package that was suppose to come before 10 once but never showed up until 1. I had called UPS and told them I was suppose to be at work and loosing money because of them (which is not entirely true because I work from a laptop anywhere I want really:)). They ended up waiving the duty fee of $30 after I told them I would have to talk to the Better Business Bureau. They respond very well to that "threat" :) Thats the worst problem I have ever had and it worked out well.

GreenSpottedPuffer,

You can save more money getting your stuff shipped by USPS.(Quite a bit more.)

I use UPS for shipments within Canada, but avoid them for anything international.

I can understand your frustration Neal. Having run one of these basement stores myself I know the Headaches that come along with it. Ordering fish for people when they say want it, and than they die because they don't come get the fish they ordered when they say they would. And the store gets to suck up the cost of that, and are still expected to offer huge deals the next time they walk in. Or the all time classic.. you have some fish or coral for sale for an absolutely awsome price and some dude tries to barter with you. ( Including calling you names and accussing you of trying to rip them off.) Although I agree that some LFS could do a better job of stocking their tanks and offering a bit better of deals please bear in mind that they do have lots of overhead, DOA livestock still has to get paid for and the people still have to make a living as well. No job comes with out headaches but it would be so much nicer if people spotted a good deal and appreciated it as well, without complaining. I mean this is a great hobby, expensive .... YES But great none the less.

One last thought for you all. Next time you see see a fish from Fiji, Hawaii, or where ever think, how much would it cost me to fly there?
Just my 2 cents :mrgreen:

I never begrudge another business for offering a lower price, for it is only they who know the true value of their product and service.

^ wow, that's deep and insightful

Indeed - I hope Neal gives it some consideration and though (and hopes he does not mind me posting in his forum!). I have no idea what he does or how he does it, but there are many sides/aspects to consider in any business. Cheers.