ICh
 

MY FOWLR has ich. Cowfish and the porcupine (both very small are affected the most)

Is there any way to treat this? I have heard it is very difficult.

Ich
 

Get A Few Cleaner Wrasses Slowly Drop Your Salinity Very Slowly
The Best Way Is To Quarantine Them And Treat Them With Copper
Make Sure You Dont Put Any Copper In Your Main Tank Minute Levels Will Kill All Invert You Can Take Them Out And Place Them In Fresh Water For A Couple Minutes

Be careful if you use copper, I don't think you're supposed to use it with cowfish or pufferfish because they are scaleless. Perhaps a FW dip and lowered salinity would be the way to go.

Here ya go Rudy
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...osalinity.html

Just be very careful as you get down to the lower salinity. Be ready to bring it back up a bit at the first sign of distress

Have you added any new inhabitants that could have introduced it? Sometimes the fish will just overcome the symptoms (though the ich is still present in your system). Ich often manifests itself when present conditions cause the fish stress. What could this be in your case?

I wouldn't rely on cleaner wrasses....I'm fairly sure they don't actually treat ich, but rather eat the dead skin off the fish that is a result of the actual parasite underneath the surface of the skin.

As Christy said, copper might not be the thing for you (try a little research on google and you can find this out with certainty). Hyposalinity might be your best bet if the symptoms don't go away on their own.

So it is not a death sentence for fish then? I always understood it was

Turn temp up [ 82 ] for a week...speeds up the ICH cycle...got this from a twenty year reefer...worked for me...make sure they eat.
Good Luck

You'll just get successive generations faster. Increasing temperature won't kill the crypto by itself.

What I have found to be important is food. I increase the number of times I feed....not so much the amount just more often. If it looks bad I will add a little garlic. Its more for a little added flavoring because I'm not convinced garlic does anything else. Then I just sit back and wait it out. I avoid any chemicals just because I fear transfering them to the main tank.

Scott

Everyone has their own "home remedy" for ich is seems. I think in the end after you battle it a few times you just do what is right for your own tank. I know this does not say much, and perhaps I am just talking in circles :p

All I ever do to treat ich is soak my food in garlic before I feed, I also tend to feed a little bit more during an ich outbreak as well. I find that by keeping any added stress to a minimum, they tend to get over it within a week.

I hold true to the theory that ich is always present in our tanks. My two tangs just started getting some ich spots yesterday for no good reason. Nothing new has been added to my tank so it was not introduced from the outside.

Now by many other peoples experience here I am a newbie, only having kept salt water tanks for 2-1/2 years but in that time I have battled ich more times than I can count and I have yet to lose a fish to it.

*knock on wood* maybe just dumb luck, but I really tink people overcomplicate when it comes to ich treatment.

ich
 

Copper is the only remedy that works.The ouicker you use it the better results.A freshwater bath will give your fish instant relief in the short term but copper is the fix.I wish people would quite mentioning garlic because it does not work.They even took it off there label that it treats ich.So many people have lost fish because of treating ich with garlic.

Rudy I also had this problem trying to get a cowfish, the only way is to use cupprimine, dont use copper as cowfish are scaleless. Dont need to drop your salinity, jus remove any inverts remove all carbon, turn off skimmer, I believe you use 1cc of cupprimine per 10 gallons, ask dennis at gold;'s he will tell you step by step, I have had to treat my cowfish twice now if you want to call me you can I have had great succes, with my cow, so you can call me at 975-2187

I would be surprised if people actually "lost" fish because of garlic.

I just shared what has worked for me in the past, like I said everyone has thir own magic elixir when it comes to ich treatment and it is up to each individual reefer to find out what is best for -their- tanks. Is anyone better than the other? Everyone will tell you their method is best. For me it's really tough to say becuase I have yet to read a definitive scientific paper on ich treatment, I just know what has worked for me in the past and stick to it.

There probably needs to be a distinction made between treatment for ich and eradicating ich from a tank....

I have been successful in ridding my fish of ich by doing absolutly nothing.... just sort of sat back, thought about what my options for treatment would be and then the ich dissappeared...

now this does not mean my tank is ich free but my fish have been able to fight it off IMO by good water quality, propert feeding and diet, etc....

Exactly, it'll also lessen the oxygen content in the tank making it even more difficult for a sick fish

I think the general idea surrounding garlic is that it can aide overall health, which helps the fish to fight off sickness, parasites, etc.

Kind of like how taking vitamins will promote overall health, but doesn't cure the common cold.

I have been using garlic and vita-chem at feedings...I agree with Drew that it keeps healthy fish healthy, therefore I believe this to be a big factor in the ablitily to fight off this pest. I will also stick with raising the water temp as it's worked for me.

Hi, Cowfish and porcupinefish, avoid the copper. Regards Ken

Garlic
 

As you know garlic was sold as a treatment for parasites at the beginning but is not now.They took that off there label.I told people of garlic 10 years ago before it was sold as a remedy.It was said it was fed to cows and horses to keep ticks and masquitos from biting them that as how somebody ran with the idea as a treatment for parasites for fish in a reef tank.It/s a wise tale.I wish I had sold it and made a million but I wouldnt have felt good misleading people.Maybe its a good food supplement but marine bioligists I have talked to disagree with that even.I dont mean to step on anybodys toes but when people say its a parasite treatment and people believe it and lose fish when the only proven treatment is copper based medications.

Hypo-salinity is also a "proven" treatment, and much safer than copper. Many public aquariums use it in their acclimatisation procedures.

Ever tried "no sick fish"?? They have a treatment for ich that worked really well for our tank. It is safe on inverts and corals, you just add it to your main system. Make sure that you remove all of your filtration though. Not sure if they sell it in Calgary but Hidden Reef carries it or did carry it a little while ago. Check out the website: www.nosickfish.com
It is a little pricey but I would definately recommend it. It's 1 drop per 25 gallons everyday for 1 week.

Rudy,
A FOWLR setup can be very difficult to maintain parasite free when you are dealing with predators such as puffers etc. It is true as Drew stated that Cleaner wrasse do not remove Ich, rather the tissue etc. that is damaged from parasites and other minor injuries on a day to day basis.
If you have "full blown Ich" on these fish in question then we agree in removing them from the system and treating immediately in a lower salinity and higher temperature, maybe 82 degrees. Although live rock is a great biological filter and natural surrounding for the fish, the price you pay is the inability to medicate. In our experience with the feeding demands on predators, and using a FOWLR system, this will not be the last time you experience this. The waste levels are much higher then a typical fish only system, and the aggression between species will increase stress levels.
Are you running a UV sterilizer? If not that would be a must in this type of system. Proper sizing and flow rates are key for a successful kill rate of Ich. Circulation in the aquarium can probably be increased to reduce dead spots as well where the eggs accumulate as does organic waste. Is there a protein skimmer on the system? Hypo-salinity can help as suggested but your best prevention is with a UV and removing the fish and treating in a quarantine tank.

Good luck,:biggrin:
Big Al's BC

*NO DONT USE COPPER ON EITHER FISH. Seriously its a hit and miss! You will likely miss. There is other methods. The scaless fish do not respond to copper treament. I have seen it time and time again. Porcupines & cowfish BOTH die in copper treatment. What happens is they produce a slim that fogs their eyes and the mucus smothers them, not being able to breath and they will stop eating within the second day.

ALSO - its a double edge sword as well cause if the cowfish is stressed before it dies, well bye bye rest of fish as it can release its toxin. This also depends what KIND of boxfish you have??

First of, how many other fish do you have that are effected? Depending on the state of the fish being infected, you can treat naturally. Also depends how many fish your working with.

Here is some tips to help before treatment - ich:

1. Is your tank a FOWL only? Keep the tank PITCH DARK! Seriously. Ich falls off the fish, falling in the substrate (sand) and hatches and moves up towards the light. Keep the lights OUT! It not only calms the fish but helps the ich from finding your fish (host).

2. Get a fresh clump of ginger from Safeway (0.20 cents) soak and crush in their food. Remember to feed them in the dark. Also you can trade it up with crushed garlic on the other feeding days.

3. do lots of water changes.

4. If you have too many fish to treat, buy UV sterilizer.


There is only 3 methods to rid ich,

1. Copper - DO NOT use on these fish
2. Hyposalinity - very time consuming, requires a refractometer (accurate salinity monitor very slowly) and hypo can't be performed in the main tank. As it will create a big spike once it gets to 1.016 and kills everything including substrate and rock.
3. Jumping the parasite- as I like to call it. - a series of tub transfers (rubbermaid containers) in clean water each time. Reduces the salinity as you go, aerate the water tons, cupping the fish between transfers with NO netting (especially boxfish that get spooked and try to jump & porcupines panic and then puff, usually in your net. By no netting it reduces stress. BIG TIME! Try it! Anyway.. this is a method I have used for years on all my scareless fish friends. If your interested I will give you all the details on how to do.

For preventative treatment - I do suggest a UV sterilizer, like mentioned above. Especially with a FOWL tank. It's no reason not to. At times, depending on the fish and how bad the ich is, you can run a UV sterilizer and always have ich but it will keep it under control. Some people can have ich forever in their tanks but it keeps it at bay with UV. But again it really depends on many factors.


Hope this helps. :mrgreen:

Ich is getting worse and just lost my flame angel. I have tried the lowered salinity and the garlic. I am going to get a uv sterilizer. Thanks for the help everyone

Sorry to hear, I still think if hyposalinty didn't cure it, the uv won't help...besides it will kill a lot of good things to.

He's got a good point. Sounds like its pretty bad.


turn the lights out! KEEP TANK PITCH BLACK! or start transfering fish to rubbermaid containers, still keeping it in a pitch black room!!! Make sure to only get 37L rubbermaids, and include FRESH mixed water only, same temp, same salinity. Include a heater, air line (bubbles) and thats all you need. The bigger the rubbermaid the better. Now only 4 fish per rubbermaid. This is a lot of work but helps the fish not to be reinfected. Jump fish everyday. No not net, use a small cup. Transfer in low light. Have any questions, let me know. Eitherway, KEEP LIGHTS OFF AND ROOM DARK DARK! IT does help.

Ich livespan is 6 weeks, after that without fishys it dies off...I'm not sure it its 6 weeks to the day, but that is always what I have been told. So if you can cure your fish and keep them out of the main tank for 6 weeks you should be okay.

Check-out http://forum.marinedepot.com/ Kelly Jedilicki (aka Pufferqueen) is the disease mod. IMO She has been giving the best advice on the net when it comes to fish disease. Coincidentely she is also a puffer expert. By raising temp the ick lifecycle and reproduction may be happening faster but all it will do for the fish is to make it even harder to breath. At one time raising temp was the norm, a left-over from treating fw ick where it does have some merit but marine ick is different. Temp manipulation is discussed briefly here, as well as uv and other treatments. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/mini4.htm Good-luck

Yes, this is true. I assumed people already know that when you read up on ich. Sorry I never mentioned that. The tub transfer is alot more detailed then I mentioned above. I have posted it in detail on the boards here in the past, you can do a search or let me know and I will post again.

But the main tank regardless has to remain empty of fish for at the very least 40 days. At the time the main tank is empty (of fish), you raise the temp of the main tank past 80-84 to speed up the parasites life cycle.

Thats right, it may speed the lifecycle of the parasite but is harder on the fish. Making the fish not only breath heavier, but make the fish exhausted. Again the reproducing of the Ich also comes faster. Turning the heat up, is not a cure, its speeding up the process. After your main tank is empty then turning up the heat is good, but not before. Understanding the lifecyle of the parasite is key. :mrgreen:


Turn off your lights. I tell ya, it works. This is only to buy you time till you treat the ich. If you turn the lights on before the 10 days. Your fish will be the most infected, as ich moves towards the light.



Hope this helps ya.

If you already have the UV then great but I don't think it's gonna fix this. Stinky has the right idea here, it is somewhat tricky to use copper on these fish but it is not impossible. Given the gravity of the situation I'd say it was time.

This isn't for everybody but given your experience with fish you can manage it. Either go see Albert about it or PM me your number and I'll give you a call.

ich
 

I have been in saltwater fish for 16 years.In the first few years almost every fish I bought had ich.I have treated boxfish and puffers with no loss of either species.UVsterilizers wont do the job.Raising the temp does speed up the reproduction of parasites .If you have a copperbase medication raising the temp does help.You should of got the fish out of your main tank /freshwater dipped them and put them in a clean quaratine tank that had a copperbased medication.They would of had a fighting chance then.Talk to any pet shop owner and grill them into what works on ich.They always say copperbased medications are the only thing that really works not these snake oil medications or food addtives.I know people are trying to help but alot of fish are dying needlisly.As always aquaratine tank will save you alot of moner and fish in the long run.

Hey Tim, sorry to hear about your ich outbreak. Some good advice given in this thread, hopefully you'll be successful in saving your fish.

Regarding garlic, garlic has indeed been proven to have anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-parasitic, and antiviral properties (Bartelme, 2003 and Cortes-Jorge, 2001). Over the past decade there has been a number of studies involving garlic and fish food and the anecdotal evidence with regards to feeding fish allicin complex (the active ingredient in garlic) to rid them of parasites appeared to be quite strong. The following is a link to a more recent study that confirms what some people have been saying all along.
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jvatitd/v12n2/v12n2a03.pdf

A. M. Shalaby et al. EFFECTS OF GARLIC (Allium sativum) AND CHLORAMPHENICOL ON GROWTH PERFORMANCE, PHYSIOLOGICAL PARAMETERS AND SURVIVAL OF NILE TILAPIA (Oreochromis niloticus). J. Venom. Anim. Toxins incl. Trop. Dis., 2006, 12, 2, p.196


In this particular study the inclusion of garlic powder at a rate of 3% was shown to increase the overall digestibilty of protein, carbohydrates, and fat, as well as to lower the total bacteria count within the intestine, muscles, as well as the tank water itself.

Garlic is a great preventative solution to keeping your fish (and water) free from outbreaks of various disease causing pathogens, and while on its own it certainly won't cure a case of ich, it's no snake oil either.

Its not a parasite treatment but does boost a fishes immune system and helps fight off ich. My brother did one of his papers and studies at UBC Marine Biology on this and found that fish eating food supplemented with garlic were much less likely to get sick when parasites were introduced to their tank.

Im not sure what marine biologists your talking too but having a brother as a marine biologist means I meet A LOT of them and almost every one of them will tell you, they are not at all the best people to ask for advice about home aquaria.

No freshwater dip. Especially with puffers. Its entirely unnecessary if your about to quarantine them with copper. Freshwater dips can lead to osmotic shock and the long term affects do not always show up right away. I would highly recommend hyposalinity with puffers, as copper can be very harsh on scaless fish. I have had a Dogface die because copper levels spiked. If you do use it, you need to be testing the copper with a high end test kit about 3 times a day...with a puffer, maybe double.

Where did snake oil even come into this???

Great information there. I think this is actually what my brother based a lot of his research on, as well as his own experiments.

Rudy lost his fish.Garlic didnt work.How come they took treatment for parasites off the label.I guess they didnt want to get sued for peoples fish dying

If this is directed at my post, read it again...maybe slower. I never said it cures ich. It helps fish fight ich by boosting their immune system. You can't be sued for peoples fish dying even if you do claim it is a medication for ich. As for the label, I have never seen a label on garlic. My grocery just sells it in bulk.

I have no problem if your saying you have had bad luck with trying garlic, or even dont recommend it but unless you have scientific proof to discredit the scientific proof given above, do not tell people its useless. On its own, it will not rid your tank of ich, I do not think anyone is claiming that. But it can help and certainly does not hurt anything. My fish are fed food soaked in garlic everytime they eat.

What exactly have Marine Biologists told you? Who were they?

The food that I use (and cough-cough, sell) contains garlic, and has for the past 10 yrs, yes, even back when you were telling people about garlic, and the inventor of this particular brand of food has been keeping (and at one time importing on a large commercial scale) marine fish for the past 40 yrs.

As Green Spotted Puffer just stated, no one is saying that garlic will cure ich.

Garlic
 

All I am pointing out is people thinking garlic will save there fish from parasites as the fellow that started this link.Think of all the fish that died from using garlic as a cure.I have saved many fish for other hobbyists with copper based medications as long as you treat quickly and correctly