MH and Heat - turning my tank into soup cooking pot?
 

Okay - Halides are very nice. They're also very hot. I expected some hot, but I didn't expect to turn my bedroom into a bloomin' rainforest.

So here I sit - my bedroom hot and my poor tank approaching 82 IN THE MIDDLE OF WINTER. It's cold as a witch you know what outside, and I've got our bedroom window open and the fan going - it still sticks at 82.

Now - I know there are a few options out there, and I put a small CDN tire fan blowing across the top of the tank. This helped, however it's JANUARY and when it actually starts getting warm out, I'm concerned as to what is going to happen.

Obviously the easiest answer would be a chiller. The concern there is obviously the cost of around 450 - a worthy investment but hard to justify with a 50g tank.

Other options are installing fans in the system - but will this be enough in my poorly insulated room? I don't want to get into June and be scrambling and dumping ice into my tanks if I can at all avoid it :)

I know come summer limiting the lighting time will assist in the overall temp - but what other options are there - cost effective and possibly tried and tested? I'm putting a kaibosh on the mini-fridge idea ;)

Thanks much!

Sorry to correct you but a new chiller is about $800.00 with the taxes.
maybe you might find one used cheaper, and if you do, jump on it fast....

I'm having trouble myself trying to decide on a chiller(s) for my systems. My problem is that my house is a one story bungalow with no basement. A chiller is somewhat noisy, and they produce a lot of heat on their own. My house doesn't get that terrible hot as it is log and well insulated but with 6 400W and 2 250W MH bulbs running it definately gets up there on hot days.
Because of where I live it is not possible to somehow have the chiller sitting outside (even if I could somehow figure out a way to build a little shelter for it/them). So you have to consider if you do decide on a chiller it may be enough to keep your tank cool but your room may end up a sauna.

Man that's harsh. This is why I went LED... good luck.

Is the tank covered with a glass top?

Cheers,

I was thinking of getting single ended metal hallides until I heard about the heat issues. I bought 150 watt double ended HQI bulbs and have zero heat issues- lights are 4 inches above the water and the temperature rises maybe half a degree during the day. No fans blowing or anything else.

Option
 

Ruth
if you do decide to put a chiller inside, an option for you is to vent out the heat with a strong in-line fan. These fans can push or pull air very well. So if you were to put the chiller under the tank and put flexible 4" or 6" air duct tubing attached to an in-line fan outside your house, the fan will "suck" the hot "chiller's" air out of your house. If you have a seperate temp controller (ie Ranco single stage thermostat), you can even set the inline fan to turn on the same time as your chiller turns on.
another option is like what you said, to build a little shelter for the chiller outside and use flexible tubing to run water to the chiller outside. But put ball valves and union fittings with the plumbing so you can disconnect the chiller in the winter time and bring it inside when you don't need it anymore.

distance
 

Ansoitgoes, what is the distance between your halides and the water? if you keep a fan blowing across the space between them, it usually does the trick. I'm surprised to read that opening the windows doesn't help with the heat especially at this time of the year.
Another thing you want to check is your thermometer. What brand is it? Hows does its readings compare to your residential thermostat?
Otherwise I would suggest to learn a way to control the heat now before summer comes along..... otherwise you may get 50g of undercooked seafood chowder in July. :lol:

Okay - first, the low side of chillers I'd need are only about 450 (only, hah) - http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/s...t_ID=ch-pc002i

So that answers that problem.

I've got my light a good 4" from the water surface. And it's a Double-Ended HQI bulb as well. Other than the fan, nothing was taking down the temp yesterday, until I turned off the MH...

As for the thermo - I used 2 different kinds. One from my salinity testing probe and one from a coralife electro thermometer. Both gave readings in the 80's - 80, 81, etc.

In the summer my first thought was to just get a small window A/C which I figured would solve the problem, but I know that means I need to keep IT running 24/7 - Surrey in July, yikes!!

Maybe we should just move to Antartica? =/

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4" sounds a bit close to me. I'd raise it up to between 6-8" and see if your temp goes down a bit.

Something about your setup sounds weird, I have a 42 cube with a 250 hqi over it, large skimmer and sizable return pump and I am struggling to keep the tank warm.

Is the top of your tank open and gets circulation around it?
Do you have a sump?
How many powerheads do you have in there?
Are there other contributing factors close by that are adding to the ambiant heat in the room, ie; fridge, computer, heat register?

Btw, a 1/10HP chiller will be cycling on and off a lot on a 50 gallon tank with heat issues. A 50 gallon really needs a 1/5 HP.

The house we're in has horrible insulation and my wife and I must just produce a LOT of heat ;)

I have no cover on my tank, previously did have a glass top, but took that off as soon as I got the legs.

No sump yet, but am putting in one in the next few weeks.

I have 4 powerheads (I know this isn't helping the situation) - and I struggle with getting ample flow to the right places. I have 1 PS 20, 1 AC 301, and 1 coraline covered u/k powerhead :)

There's no computer in the room, there are another 5 tanks nearby, the one below (my Freshwater planted) is a cool 75, and the tanks to the left are all running below 80. There's the standard Aqualight Pro fan installed on the light as well.

Heat register is covered in the room (magnetic cover)

I figured a 1/10 was too much, can't seem to find a 1/5 anywhere, but that's why I'm starting now.

Just wondering if the sump will answer a lot of the problems, but my initial goal is to do a refugium w/ skimmer above as my tank isn't drilled - hoping that won't cause more problems than it's worth.

No, if heat is an issue, you would only need to keep it running during the hours that your MH is on. Is the door to the room left open or closed during the day? If my tank starts to heat up in our ground floor suite this summer, I will probably get a room a/c unit, which I think is more cost effective than a chiller for each tank. During the winter months is actually a good time to pick one up.

that's what I've been thinking about. Gosh this tank is costing me more than I expected :)

We leave the door to the room closed during the day - we've got 4 cats that would cause rather insane amounts of chaos in the bedroom if we left it open - but I know that's a part of the problem, too.

I'm going to try a few more things, I'm going to keep the surface fan on a timer as well.

How does everyone hook up the PC fans easily? Is there a transformer that will convert the power connection to a standard AC power?

I thought i might jump in here, this being my first post on canreef. Been around awhile, but the infighting on reefcentral kept me off forums for awhile. Still only lurk around there, but i like what i see here so i registered.


Anyways, most fixtures I've had, and I've had a few. Most manufacturers recommend at least 8 inches or so from the waters surface. I know people put them closer to the water for better penetration, but it brings in new problems. The gain you receive being that close does not outweigh the cost of a chiller. I would put your lights at 10-11 inches up, then move them a half an inch to an inch closer closer until the heat is an issue again, then you will have a balance. If you cannot go with a chiller you will find the fans that you use to cool it will have you constantly filling up with top-off water due to evaporation.

You can get a 450 chiller on ebay new for bettween $500 -$600 right now

Alright, I'll throw my 2 cents in as well.

1. How is your fan pointed? Ideally, you should have it pointing slightly down at the water creating some small waves and ripples rather than entirely parallel with the surface. The reason is that evaporative cooling is dependent on surface area. Your goal is to make your tank "sweat" more. You do this by disturbing the surface to create more surface area allowing more evaporation as opposed to simply attempting to blow hot air away. Aiming your powerheads such that you get more surface agitation also helps.

An additional benefit of more evaporation would be the necessity of having to add more (cool) top-up water.

2. Adding more water via a sump would definitely help since you'd have more water volume to absorb the heat and another surface with which to blow air across for further evaporative cooling.

3. That said, I don't think you have to panic about your temperature being ~80-81 degrees F? Many reefs are kepts in the low 80s.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

This is just one of a number of articles suggesting that such temperatures are fine for reefs.

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I don't think low 80's is an issue either, as my reef has survived mid 80's for prolonged periods of time with no issues. However, come summer time the temp may jump a lot higher in what sounds to me like a room that will roast that tank. Hats off to you andsoitgoes for being pro-active.:biggrin:

lol - thanks Danny ^_^

having a very expensive pot of partially cooked sushi is NOT something I'm wanting to think about ;) And speaking of Sushi - I was thinking about the LED lights, but OY vey - I'm trying to save money :D

fkshiu - I don't have the fan pointed directly at the surface, I have the unhealthy fear that said fan will dip and make a dive into the water, and I don't want to test out my voltage grounding thing that much. I guess getting a better fan would be an idea - any suggestions at what would work?

Chaotic Cricket - thank you for the response, I hadn't thought about that, as prior to this the person that had the tank simply had it resting on the glass top I've taken off. With only having a 150w MH, I know I'm limited at the extent of corals I can have, and I was hoping to get a clam at some point and time, and unless I put up top, I'm still going to struggle. Also, raising it up would include the need to install it in the ceiling, which could be an issue due to renting and not planning on that when we set up the tank.

I'm okay doing tanks with daily top-up, if that's what it is then so be it. But I also need to ensure that my room isn't a sauna, it's hard enough to sleep in there on GOOD nights, let alone on really hot ones. The tank is really bringin' down the heat and it sucks, to say the least.

So - right now my options seem as such:

- AC unit in the bedroom for the hotter times
- 1/10hp chiller for the tank
- Fans pointing at the top of the tank, causing surface evap

The question is - with my tank temps hitting as high as they are now in middle of winter, they'll obviously bump up way more in summer (right now ambient room temp is about 75, tank temp is about 6 higher normally with the MH on, heater is off during the day) will the fans only do UNTIL summer?

Is the noise and extra heat from the chiller worth it, PLUS the cost?

Does an A/C unit seem like the most logical solution?

An AC unit does sound logical. Another thing I forgot to mention was that you get more evaporation with lower relative humidity. I noticed that you have multiple tanks in the same room. This could be driving up the humidity preventing proper evaporative cooling. An AC should help this, but in the meanwhile, try venting the room with a fan flowing out the door/window.

Lastly, try eliminating a few of your powerheads if possible. I've got just two in my 45 bow on a wavemaker and everything's been dandy.

Hmm - that might be an idea. What PHs do you have? I wonder if maybe getting a few lower-power PHs would help, and again - once sump, then I have a spot for my UV and the powerhead for that..

Thanks! :)

My tank stays at around 80 - 82 with a dual stage Ranco temp controller, in a blistering hot summer such as the last. All I have is 1x 10in ( I believe) clip on fan that points right down on the tank. I lose about 1/2in of water a day in my 50gal which has dual 250w MH's over it.. The lights are probably a good 14in off the top of the tank mabe a bit more.

Needless to say, if the lights were much closer it would cook easier. I'd suggest like some others have said, raise the lights. Sounds like your hood is not enclosed, so no need to vent that. but blowing some air across the water will help.. Might want a de-humidifier tho :)

One MJ900 and one MJ1200 in a softies/LPS tank.

Just a quick question regarding your heat issue. How long do you have them on for? What is the kelvin rating of the bulb. I have been told that a 10k bulb will put out more heat than a 14k and 20k will be less than both. If this this is true or not I am not sure as I have never looked into this. I run 14k Hamilton or Phoenix bulbs (aquaconnect seem nice but are pricey and the availability isn't as good as the other two). I also have 20k xm and radium bulbs somewhere. I never really checked to see if the 14k's raised the temp when i switched from the 20k's, and its so long ago i cannot even remember when the last time i had a temp swing in my tank.
As I stated I'm not sure if this information that was given to me is proven or just the opinion of the few who gave it, but if someone else might know, maybe that might help a little. Also for photo period i would have your halides on for no more that 6hours at the most. After all they are to mimic the sun at its zenith (just before and just after as well) and the sun isn't always the same for the full day, so 6 hours is really all you need.

Also remember for some odd reason in reef keeping lower temps than needed are often quoted by people when you ask. I would honestly worry about your tank if it rises in the summer, but for now I would say you are ok.

a room AC will not be as efficient as a chiller for the tank, but it Will be cheaper and may be enough. if you buy an over sized room ac you might be able to lower the ambient temp to the point where it will help, but you will also get a dehumidifying effect which will help also.

82, is not that bad at all, but you will be looking at about 10 degrees hotter during heat waves no problem.

Steve

Thanks again for all the replies.

I think the photoperiod is another issue I've been running with - I know at times I was pushing way more than that, now I'm down to between 4 and 6 hours. I turned them on about 5:30 today and 1.5 hours later, the tank temp is still reasonable. Still have the fan going and the window wide open, but that's something.

I also think there's something to be said about the 10k bulbs - and seeing as I was planning on changing once this bulb goes out, which will be soon, I'll be in a much better position to see the difference.

I think AC, sump, and fans will make the difference this summer. Let's hope.

Thanks in advance for all suggestions, keep 'em coming! :)

I see you run a UV sterilizer. When I run mine it brings the temp up 3-4 degrees. You might want to try running the UV just at night?
Only when the lights are off. If I run UV at night and with my 20K lights on during the day, I only have about .5 degree increase.

Hmm - interesting. I'll have to try that out and see, I had never even thought about that - makes sense!

Sounds like your hitting the trifecta of heat contributing devises.

I asked myself if the molten lava I was adding as substrate could be a problem, but no - that mustn't be it

=/

I'm going to try a day without UV and see what that brings. Friday, so it shall be.

have you thought about a wave maker on the power heads it might help as the power heads will cycle and not have a chance to get as hot you might also want to look at a dehumidifier with so many tanks in one room you must have rain clouds forming have you check the relative humidity in the room you could also loook for one of thoses fans that fit in a window they have dual fans and can be set to suck or blow or one of each it would help change the air in the room as for your cats bothering you tanks we have 11 cats (No that is not a typo i meant to type 11) all they ever do is sit and watch and thay are all indoor cats so they have lots of time to go fishing if they wanted too I also had heat problems when I had my 72 gal bow 5 power heads and 2 pumps in the sump hit a high of 94 deg. in the summer and that is with central air in the house When you do a sump plan for external pumps a BIG return pump will and BIG heat.

Hope this may help

Doug

I agree about the wavemaker. It really does keep the powerheads from heating up. We have a MJ1200 in our "water making cooler" and it was keeping the water well about 90 degrees. We plugged it into the wavemaker and now that it cycles the water stays at about 80.