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Movin' on up
I am going to pick up a 90 tonight, this is triple the size of my current 28 gallon bowfront. I will be going to a sump/fuge based system, but have no idea how they really work. I am also planning to run some sort of closed loop/SCWD type of thing for flow
The tank is currently un-drilled, but I am planning on drilling it. Is there any advantage to a bottom drilled over-flow Vs a rear drilled over-flow? I am planning on a 3 ft 50 gallon for the sump with : -1/3 for skimmers & Equipment(Aqua-c remora, a CPR Bak Pak 2 and heaters) -1/3 for a fuge type area (all my currently grape macro infested rock) -1/3 for the return area Do you think these 2 skimmers wil be able to keep a 90 reasonably clean? What type of plumbing is suggested (size of overflow, returns, pumps Etc.) I'm not a millionaire, but I am willing to spend money to make things work right. This will probably turn into a long thread as i go through each step with a million questions over the next couple of months. My current set up is really simple (Tank Lights Heater Skimmer PH's) so I am a little out of my element. Your help/advise is greatly appreciated. Robb |
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Once you have decided what return pump you will use, most likely in the neighborhood of 1200 gph, use the link below to find your overflow size.
http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/drain.php There is another calculator to find out head loss of your return pump too. Are your skimmers both hang on type? If not I don't think 12" will be enough room for two skimmers and two heaters. IMO sell both of those and put the money toward 1 bigger skimmer. |
They are both hang on skimmers, I plan to hang them both on the end of the Sump/'Fuge
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1200 for the return, and 1200 for the closed loop? or 1200 total?
Robb |
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The closed loop will not add or diminish the flow through your sump. So you only want to count the GPH for the return pump.
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ok, the 1200gph is based on the size of my tank or the size of my sump, or a combination of both?
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Hey Rob, come by if you get a chance and I can go through all the plumbing with examples for you. Really easy stuff.
Anyway, I'll answer what I can here, sans live examples: Quote:
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Now for the two holes. Using two holes will allow for a silent overflow, check Keith's (andrewsk) thread for more info on this: http://216.187.96.54/vbulletin/showt...t=25427&page=8 The basic idea there being that one hole (the one with the standpipe) acts as an emergency drain in the advent that the main drain (the one with the grill) clogs. The main drain has a valve at the exit that you throttle down just until the water level is a bit shy of the emergency standpipe. This keeps air out of the main drain while removing the drop that the water takes in a normal overflow. No air in the sump + no waterfall effect in the overflow = Silent system. For pumps, I'm going to strongly recommend that you have your sump customized with a 2" hole at the return end. This gives you access to external pumps. External pumps > internal, no questions. No heat transfer, lower head-loss rates, easier to access and maintain (use true union valves when you plumb), lower noise issues, there really is no reason to use an internal unless you're limited by space or budget (the cost difference is about 25% for comparable pumps, with the externals being on the higher end). You'll probably want to run anywhere from 500 to 900 gph, pending on how much flow you're going to get out of powerheads/closed loop within the main tank itself. Lower flow from main tank to sump being better (allows for a longer dwell time, a plus for skimmer performance). Since I'm at it, I'll also recommend a pump for you too: Sequence Reeflo Snapper. 500-2400 gph. Super silent, ultra reliable, plumbs with 1.5' tubing (AWESOME) and has a THREE YEAR WARRANTEE!!! The price is right too ($230-$250 CAD MSRP). The only down-side being that they arent pressure rated, but that's hardly an issue if the sump is directly below the tank on the same floor. Quote:
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Hope that's of help. And like I said, drop by when you have the chance and I'll go over the nitty gritties of plumbing with you step-by step. |
OK, there has been a bit of evolution for the time being, I got a great deal (Thanks Keith) on a CPR overflow rated at 1600 GPH, so I am going to try out this route unless someone advises against it. It seems by what I have gathered regarding this unit that it is the safest method, unless I was running a dual overflow. For a return pump, am I supposed to have a higher GPH for the overflow or the return?
I also am going to give this Coralife superskimmer (Again Thanks Keith)a go, it is the largest model I believe (based on mesurements from online stores). Is there a difference in performance weather it is places in sump, or hanging? Do you folks feel this skimmer will be sufficient? Also Where can I get this "snapper" :mrgreen: I only see the Dart and Barracuda on J&L. |
Heh, here's a random google result:
http://diyreef.com/shop/product_info...roducts_id=404 The gph is influenced by the max capacity of the overflow. Go lower if you can, with higher flow within the tank. SEIO's are a great economy choice, Tunze's are better. |
Albert has some great advice. The one point I might challenge him on is his recommendation for 1.5" holes for the overflows. Standard schedule-40 1" bulkheads require a 1.75" hole, IIRC. I'm pretty sure I've never seen a 1" bulkhead that would fit in a 1.5" hole. Schedule-80 bulkheads exist too and they require an even bigger hole. Unless he's thinking of smaller bulkheads?
I have a 1.75" drill bit for glass that you could borrow if you wanted. Drilling glass isn't too bad, I've done it many many times. I could help you out if you wanted. |
Hey Rob,
The skimmer should not really matter where it is placed. Just make sure it is only an inch or so from the water surface if you are not going to run it in a sump right away. that way it can get more of the JUNK from the surface. The overflow will be PRETTY safe. The reason I had 2 is for redundancy and to reduce noise. (you throttle one back a bit to keep the water level in the overflow high, and let the other one handle the excess) . If you do decide to keep going with the overflow, I would get another one (It does not have to be as big) just for peice of mind. Ill let you know if I do not end up using my other one. Keith |
Just to be sure I am understanding this, if I use the CPR overflow rated at 1600 GPH I would want a return pump rated at less than 1600 gph at 4 ft of head right?
Robb |
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I meant 1.5" ID on installed bulkheads. I totally forgot about the bulkhead sizing. The holes should be 2" to accept 1.5" standard ABS bulkheads (IMO, PVC bulkheads are excessive since the sytem is not under pressure). But yeah,thanks for the spot Tony. |
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OK next question,
I have probably 35-40 pounds of LR in my current setup, along with 2 Clowns, a Cleaner shrimp, and a starfish. Corals consist of some warty mushrooms, small orange plate coral, some xenia, some candycane, GSP a small hammer, and a finger leather. Am I going to have a really hard time if I just stuff all this into my 90 and start it up? I was planning to buy say 15-20 pounds of LR a week until I have enough rock. Would I be better of to not star putting my stuff in there until I have enough LR (Say 100 lbs) Robb |
You'd be better off taking things slower. It can be done the other way, but why risk it?
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That would mean me.........:redface:
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So, I have decided to go with a Reflo "Snapper", as suggested by Albert.
I have a question regarding the design of my sump. There is a space beneath my stand that is about 18 inches across 23 inches tall, and about 26 inches deep I am panning to have a sump built for this space. things to consider: 1) Skimmer does not fit under the stand, but there is space behind the tank, where I could cut out a space so the skimmer will fit. 2) the pump I am going with is an external pump, so it also would require to be at the back of the tank 3) skimmer creates exessive amount of microbubbles so a baffle system is required. 4) I was hoping for a Refugeum area. Any suggestions for a sump design that will fit within this footprint? Robb |
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I know, weird dimensions indeed, this is why I think a custom sump will be required.
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OK I have drawn up a plan for a custom built sump. Here is what I am thinking:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d4...s/20119549.jpg Any one have any input as I am really just making this up as I go. Basically green is in from the cpr overflow 1 1/2 inch bulkead in overflow, so I thing it would be same for the piping? Yellow is from the reeflo, whish is also 1 1/2 inch piping. I will be using some sort of a Valve to scale back the flow if required from the reeflo. |
That last chamber is where you will notice the water level drop due to all the evap from your tank. The smaller the chamber the quicker your pump will start sucking air and frothing your tank up with bubbles. Unlesss you have an Auto-Top-Off unit you will be having major bubble issues in no time.
Another thing to keep in mind is you need to make sure you allow for power outages and the amount of water in your pipes and overflow backfilling into your sump. Your do not want the sump to overflow and you do not want any water getting into the dry area. Make sure those baffles are low enough and the rest is high enough where there is a slim to nil chance the water will not get to places its not supposed to be. What size is the chamber for the "Fuge" spec'd at? |
the fuge is is about 6x17 inches. should I just give up on the refugium idea and use this space for the holding area for the return water?
Robb |
Or you could remove the sperator and fully submerg your return pump.
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Or you could use Zeovit and win big.
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You may want to think about a submersable pump though. One major reason would be if you plumb in the Snapper like you have in the drawing you won't be able to take the pump offline to clean it without a lot of effort. Your design and space available would be a much better fit for a submersable pump IMO. |
So that would be a smoke and magic thing then. When the smoke gets out the magic is gone. :lol:
Ok, so what is the hight of the sump and the hight of the stand? Could you build something above the sump and place the return pump on that? |
I have room on the back of the stand, what kind of performance loss can be expected due to the pump having to suck the water up 2 feet?
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You can clean external pumps easy. Just make sure both the inlet and the outlet are plumbed with true union valves. |
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The solution is to redesign the sump.
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Id love to see what you can come up with for that size space, Albert. :wink:
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OK I have never had a sump, or designed one before, as you can tell. From what I can see on the sequence website, these pumps are not designed to suck, only push. This problem could be bridged by priming the line, but if I had a power failure, my cpr overflow would start up, but the reflo would not! So it looks like placing the pump above the sump is out of the picture.
Albert, we looked at another pomp, that was pressue rated, so i could possibly move my sump to the basement at a later time, but I forget what kind this was. Could you refresh my memory? can this pump suck/pull water? I guess an internal pump may end up being the solution. Too bad , these reeflo pumps seem like a really good buy!:sad: Robb |
There really isn't a pump in the hobby that I could recommend for sucking water. If you do want to go with an internal, Sedra's, IMO, are better than Mag Drives.
In anycase, I could probably whip up a sump for those dimensions, but you'd be using Zeovit, har har har. |
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Okay, I drew one out on paper. Give me a few minutes to transfer it to a computer image.
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Okay
http://img309.imageshack.us/img309/6518/sumpcv2.th.gif GOD! I had this whole explanation written up on the sump and the stupid browser closed on me. Piece of crap. Anyway, here it is again: I've narrowed the sump to 12" in order to get the Snapper in behind the whole thing (or the front if you want ease of maintainance). I've also plopped in a few upgraded equipments just for show. Aside from that, at 18" tall, you should be looking at a 25 gallon sump. If you're concerned about an overflow (power outtage), just make sure you plumb the return into a manifold that sits on top of the tank or suspended under the frame. This should reduce, if not remove, any drainage into the sump. The last thing you'll need is a good auto top-off unit (PM me) and you'll be set. |
What took you so long?
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Next question, How much would this cost me? Sans Zoevit (Sorry Albert, Im not sold on this yet) . I guess I could probably find a beat up old 25 gallon on buy'n'sell. Nah, I don't really know how to drill it, and I would still have to source all the rest of the glass to build the bafles etc.
I am still confused, I thought the baffles had to be before the snapper in order to prevent microbubbles from the skimmer getting pumped back into the display? |
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