Supporting the LFS
 

Just wanted to say a couple of things..There is a link in one of the area forums and I think that this has something to do with me a bit.
IMO, what the LFS here in alberta charge for items, in the most part, is almost insulting.
This hobby is truly an amazing one. However, to take part of it in alberta you need a second job to support it. The reason i started bringing stuff in was because i couldn't afford to buy it here.
I mean a turbo snail costs 4.50 in a couple stores in Edmonton. I know that they have lots of overhead and such..but i don't know many places that get to place a 750 to 1000 percent mark up on items.
Maybe the local stores really need to take a look at why it is that we can place orders from places in BC and with the shipping charges included and yet we still end end up saving money.
I know that myself, if the local stores came even somewhat close to being the same prices, i would definitely support them verses buying elsewhere.
However, they aren't. In alot of cases they are infact double what the items cost from one province over. Which is why i buy from there verses here.
I am all for supporting the Local stores....However, they need to look at the prices they are charging and stop insulting us by the highly inflated prices.
Just think, if this hobby became more affordable for everyone....maybe more people might do it......then maybe the stores would have more customers buying more stuff....thus making them more money. This should not be a hobby of the elite or wealthy.
I dunno know what everyone else thinks, but IMO, you shouldn't have to take out a second mortgage on a house to buy a few snails. Especially when they are available for much much less elsewhere with no real reason to justify the huge increase in prices.. It doesn't cost that much more to fly to Edmonton verses Vancover.
What it boils down to is the local stores have had a monopoly on the market...with no real competition...
well, I for one am saying, until they start supporting us, i have a hard time supporting them.
But that is just me.
I would love to hear comments on this both good and bad. I know there are lots of people out there that support what i am doing, and lots of people that don't.

By the way...please dont turn this into a trash individual stores forum.....All that will to happen then is one of the moderators will lock this discussion and it will go into the nether regions to be never seen again.
Lets use it to come up with useful discussions on both sides of the fence. Maybe we can actually have some of the LFS take notice to what is being said.

Neal

Sorry man, but this will happen soon in all likelyhood anyhow.
I think this thread will not live a very long and productive life.

Most of us wouldn't even be able to make an honest case either way. We will see things as a consumer does no matter what.

Some others may look at this thread as an of advertisement of sorts. (I'm not too sure how people are going to take this.)

This could also make other vendors pull the pin on sponsorship here.

I'll be checking back to read this thread for sure though.

You know we've got some wonderful stores in alberta, but yes - some of the markups are ridiculous.

I don't actually mind the markups some stores charge, if they stock the necessities, and keep a good selection I'm happy to support them. Of course there are limits...

Unfortunately with the passing of BA's, calgary's got no real source for a cleanup crew. Sure the local stores bring them in occasionally, but on an average day, try to go buy some snails/hermits - not many to be found.

I "WILL" support local stores if they were more resonably prices. When you do you homework and shop around you almost say WTF. I have to almost bite my lip when I go into a store and there is people purchasing items and I see the prices. I must confess that I do buy softy frags from retailers but thats about it $10-15. LPS $32.99 perhead little deal for mutiple heads SPS 64.99 frag I do love going to these stores "to have a look"
Is our forum that small that the local retailers can lose our business? Cannot they see the extent and risk we are will to take to do group orders? We buy livestock sight unseen !!. I know I would perfer to look over my livestock before purchasing but to save 50-75% I'll take my risks. A local store was selling bangaii's for $64.99:eek: (I have see them as low as $45) and a Vancouver area store sells them for $24.99 now what would any of us do? Support the local guy? or have them shipped? Sometimes I dunno whether to laugh or cry. I guess we are going to have to wait until the locals what to start to take on the online vendors.
I do know this thread will probably not last long I know it sounds like bashing but I think the intent is vent our concerns(maybe the right people will be reading) and to reasure ourselves what we believe in is right so with this said......
RIP Thread :grab:

I feel like ranting some more...

Just why is it certain shops think that we have no idea what they pay for livestock? 2 weeks ago I had a shop telling me how expensive a fish was, but yet, I can look on various wholesalers price lists, transshipers price lists, and exporters price lists, and see that it's priced the same by species - but they wanted 80$, not 40$ like the other members of that species that arrived with that shipment. Needless to say, I haven't gone back to that retailer since, and won't in the future.

Wholesale pricing isn't secret, it only takes minutes online looking in the right places to find out what the real price was (albeit, not including shipping, permits etc). Why even risk ****ing off a customer simply for a few extra dollars on a single animal? Yes there is some supply/demand at work, but doubling the price simply because someone asked "how much?"?

It basically goes down to people buy from the people they can afford....for instance how many people shop at a store for something they can get at walmart for cheaper....why do you think places like walmart make money...great service? nope people (the avg.) go where it is the cheapest....

unfortunatly for most people (i said most, not all) only rich people can have ideals, the rest of us do what we can....
take that anyway you like, i go where i can afford to. Wherever that may be, being on a limited budget I feel this crunch more than most. I have shopped at at Big Als and AI (No local reefers, but that is changing when the tank cycles again) Jlaquatics, oceanaquatics etc. I generally decide what I want, then look for the best price. I don't owe anyone my business, they earn it...wether it's by prices, service, support etc. Everyone has there own ideals, you can't drag people through the mud for sticking to them, even if they are 180 from yours :)

So with that do what thou willt, shall be the whole of the ...
Egad i'm quoting crowley...sheesh :)

And remeber, most "Business's" Are out there to make money, not friends... spend 2 minutes in the business wing of the university...you'll see what i mean.

Again..not all....just most....

re LFS
 

I have no problem with a business earning money
I own my own business(not selling inverts either)..and well..that is why most businesses are started..to make money
However, it would appear that some stores unjustifibly mark up their prices to high amounts.
Obviously the stores in BC make money as well, at half the price of things here and like i said previously, it don't cost that much more to go one more province in delivery charges.
I guess this is my 2nd two cents
Neal

Okay well I do work occasionally at a local retailer so I have a pretty good idea why some of this happens.

First, a store is expensive. You need staff and space and utilities and all that stuff. Retail space in Calgary for example is INSANELY EXPENSIVE. $60 / square foot is not unheard of. Basically you need to do a 70% to 80% markup to cover your overhead, minimum.

When you consider the scale most local retailers work at as well you can see where they can't really compete with larger online vendors or stores with bigger markets. When you buy in quantity you get a better deal but what is one of our local shops going to do with 80 mag 7s. It will take forever to recover that kind of capital.

Often you will see retailers push larger margins onto small items like snails. Like it or not, it's the way retial businesses work. Ask Future Shop how much they make on batteries or Safeway about laundry soap. Way back when I worked in a retail computer store I almost fell over when they told me how much they marked up printer cables. Small "sure sale" items always get padded. It's the economics of the business.

Also, it is tons more expensive to get dry goos here compared to somepalce like Vancouver. Most of this stuff comes out of Asia and Vancouver is a major pacific port. Cargo flights are also more expensive, most of the livestock you see for sale here comes though either Vancouver or Los Angeles. Manilla to Calgary direct flights are VERY rare. You see that extra shipping expense at the till.

A retialer is also aking a risk on livestock that youre are usually not. Some things ship poorly and airlines will regularly screw up your life. Those losses have to be covered.

I'm not saying that here isn't profiteering going on sometimes. Every once in a while I'll look at something and wonder too. There are a couple places that I find rather amusing most of the time but I shouldn't say where.

I just don't think it's as bad as people seem to think it is. How many LFS owners in this province drive BMWs? Nobody ever got rich owning a fish store.

midgetwaiter has some good points. I feel that there's obviously much more to business than just prices.

Also, I need to mention that not everyone is as sensible when it comes to business techniques. I can think of at least 1 LFS that brings in tankbusters every second week while most of its customers want small fish only. Since alot of the big fish go unsold (not everyone has a 160 gallon tank), there is considerable loss and to compensate for that, the person has to markup fish at least 350%. (500% in some cases)

Now tell me---is that smart?

Bottom line: It sometimes boils down to how well a person can operate a business.

IBTL? Anyway, this is striaght economics. Retail space is expensive, QT is expensive (if they do it), losses during QT are real, must be factored in. Staff to answer your questions are expensive. Shipping can be expensive. Carrying stock and debt (really the same thing) is expensive. All of these costs are also borne by the coastal companies.

My family owned a FW LFS in Nova Scotia from '76 to '85. We purchased in bulk from the US, arranged "group orders" from drop shippers with other stores -- did everything we could to keep our costs low. We got grief from the 'local' suppliers (ironically the shame jive the LFS give us now) about killing their business. We somehow owed them something? We also re-wholesaled (after a small markup) our surplus stock to other LFS in the area. Our prices were the lowest in the area, and people came for miles to shop with us. We also went way out of our way to have interesting and rare fish: First Pacu, First red-tailed cat (a 15" monster), 12" oscars. Exotic African Cichlids (before they were so trendy). Arawana. Pirahhna (they were illegal, I think). Fish we couldn't sell, because nobody could afford them, but looked cool and drove trade in other spp. We earned their buisness that way. After all that, it was a good but surprisingly marginal business. It always made money, but it wasn't a money factory, by any means.

Edmonton's LFS are likely not money factories either. Thier costs most likely dictate their prices. Some managers will find ways of lowering their costs. Some companies just don't.

My opinion though, is the same as others have posted. It doesn't matter what they charge. They don't own my business. If I choose to buy in Vancouver or Calgary or only trade with others, and that causes their business to become untenable, they will adjust their model, or close. If enough people continue to support them, because they either see value, or aren't aware of their options, they will continue to survive, and we'll all continue to wonder how.

I support the LFS when necessary. Honestly, although I've only been in this hobby a bit more than a year, I've gotten -or heard- enough bad advice from the LFS to last a lifetime. I enjoy browsing, and will buy when the price is good or impulse overcomes me.

Matthew

I enjoy your post, I feel the same way.

It all comes down to the cost of doing business. Just because a yellow tang costs $4 for the LFS to buy, there's shipping and paperwork costs that get added in. Add to that the cost of having a suitable place to house the fish before it's sold, feeding it, possible meds, etc, etc. It goes on for ever.
I will definately support the local guy, but if he's blatantly trying to rip me off, then I won't buy anything from him.
I guess it's different because I've worked as a sales/purchasing manager for a computer store so I can take into account all the other costs associated with doing business.

yea, but aren't places like J&L and ocean aquatics businesses too?

Very well said everyone. let's look at some fish ok.
Say some one wants to buy a Leopard wrasse ok they retail for around $80 dollars well around here or more

So if a store buys one the price would be 5.60 US
and then they are chagred for shipping, duty, or what ever
taxes, and there 20% mark up and then you get your price.

now if you know the right people they will not mark up 20 % maybe 10% depending on the person too .but it will end up being the guy will mark up the most he can get away with.

THe reason is maybe he is the only store around and thinks he is the only one that can get it.. Pretty sad....

The cost of doing business in Edmonton is much cheaper than in Vancouver. For the fish business, shipping costs will be more, but overhead costs should make up for that.

Bottom line the extra shipping costs hold no weight, because it is cheaper for me to fly fish in from Vancouver to my house than to buy at the LFS, so the LFS here are marking up far more than just the extra shipping cost.

But it comes down to competition. They are free to charge prices that keep them in business. Whether they could generate more buiness at lower margins and make more $$$ overall is tough to say. But with high prices they don't get the same volume going through the shop, so they don't get as good a volume discount, which increase costs, so they have to markup more. A visious cycle that could eventually lead to too few customers willing to pay high prices, and the shop will go under.

Some vancouver retailers are obviously doing a great job at managing inventory, and have good purchasing skill and general business management skills, hats off to them.

So does this mean laundry soap at Sobeys in Vancouver is half the price than it is in Edmonton? or batteries at Visions?........if so GROUP ORDER :mrgreen:

Long ago, I did a group buy of LR with 3-4 other reefers from an e-tailer. While the rock was nice looking, the shipment did not have the shapes and sizes of rocks I was looking for. Of course, I ended up curing and using the rock, but overall, I was dissatisfied with it even though it was half the price of lfs rock. Even though LR prices locally are absurdly high, imo, I still like to hand pick the rocks that go into my tanks. The satisfaction of having the right shapes and sizes of rock make up for the higher prices, at least to me.

The only fish I ever bought from an e-tailer were CB seahorses, with which I was very satisfied. However, the SH e-tailer was a small operator, and I spoke with the store's owner a few times before buying from him. He seemed to genuinely adore the animals in his care.

That said, I have been to LFSs in the city and found each of them lacking in one way or the other. I'm sure if I saw the fish in e-tailers' tanks, I would find each of them lacking in the same ways. Even though e-tailers may have significantly lower prices, I am unable to look at their tanks the way I can a lfs's tanks.

Before buying any fish from a lfs, I scope the place out over a period of weeks before buying fish from them. That way, I can observe over a period of time whether or not there may be disease in their banks of tanks, in which case, I will put off buying fish from them. When dealing with a lfs, I can also pick out the best looking fish if there are more than one of the species I'm interested in. For these benefits, I am willing to pay the premium prices LFSs ask.

I view buying corals the same way I view buying fish. With the exception of a small shipment of zoanthids I made two years ago, which I was not particularly impressed with, I do not buy corals from e-tailers. I like to look at corals in the tanks so I can choose the best looking ones from the variety the lfs has available. Granted, the lfs I usually deal with does not have many corals that I like or need, I am not so sure the corals from an e-tailer are that much better, though they may be.

With one lfs, I am able to buy some dry goods in bulk at prices pretty close to those from e-tailers. All I have to do is ask.

However, I had a recent large shipment of dry goods from an e-tailer, and plan to do another large shipment within a few weeks. And I'm ALWAYS in for a good salt group buy from either an e-tailer or lfs.

And, for the record, I am not a big consumer of fish or corals, anyway. I do not want or need to have the most unusual fish or corals in my tanks. As a matter of fact, I ridiculously understock my tanks with fish and corals compared to many tanks I have seen. For instance, in our 120g, most of the corals came to me as frags from other reefers, and I frag these corals from one place to another to fill in the spaces. The tank actually looks pretty good with these few soft corals grouped in various places throughout the tank. The three fish that live in the tank are all pretty good buddies. One of them will have an adult size of 5.5", so I keep in mind the eventual bioload this and the other fish in the tank will have on their glass box.

Low stocking levels suit me fine on so many levels....

First, I am not over utilizing wild fish or corals stocks from our oceans. I buy captive bred fish whenever possible, but, in all honesty, I do have more wild caught than CB fish.

Second, fewer fish makes maintenance so much easier and cheaper. I do not need skimmers or sumps on my tanks when I understock fish. The fish also have lots of room and not too many tankmates to deal with, lessening the chances of aggression overall.

Third is tied in with the second point, in that I do not have to be a heavy consumer of reefkeeping equipment. IMO, being a consumer of "stuff" of any kind isn't particularly environmentally friendly. Not having sumps, skimmers, special and expensive pumps to keep my tanks all going not only saves me money, but saves on the environment a bit. Yes, having a reef certainly does tax the environment in many ways. But I'm hoping the restraints I have on stocking my tanks lessens the impact I am personally having on the environment.

So, back to the lfs vs. e-tailers. I use them both for different reasons. If I can talk to a lfs and get close to e-tailer pricing on their products, I go with the lfs every time.

Cheers :smile:

re LFS
 

I am happy to see that we are actually having a discussion on this matter and not bashing each other.
I just want to clarify a couple of things I have said
Not all stores in alberta are overpriced. Some do have reasonable pricing on some items and I dont want to offend those that are trying to keep the costs of this hobby down to a reasonable amount.
I will be the first one to agree as well, that it is very nice to actually see what i am buying and not looking at a picture of what may or may not be the actual item i am buying.
As well, there are stores that I personally will not buy from because of the way the Livestock is handled and cared for along with the general atmosphere of the store. Just price isn't everything at all.
I also realize that you can't compare etailers verses local retail stores. it would be like comparing apples with oranges
However, what i do compare is the local retail stores here and the local stores in Vancouver.
Comparing the stores here and the stores in Vancouver, is IMO comparing apples verses apples. They both incur the same type of expenses. The only difference being the extra costs for shipping here. To me, that doesn't justify a double in price.
If one of the stores here reads these threads and maybe wants to justify that difference, i would honestly like to hear it.
One other note....i TOTALLY agree with Beverley about conservation. I personally buy Tank raised over Wild Caught anytime i can. I am a huge supporter of being socially responsible when it comes to this hobby and hopefully more and more people will push for this.

I imagine running a small business is a hand to mouth operation at the best of times. Mix in the fact that what your selling has the potential to die and become a huge liability and I think you have to be nuts to own a LFS. That said , I personally shop at 3 LFS only. They have my business for 3 main reasons; Customer service, Price and quality of product. Up until very recently I had never shopped on line. The only reason I have now is due to specific products that were not available locally.
I strongly believe in supporting the local guy and that means that on some things I will pay a higher price. Our LFS can't possibly compete with the Wal Mart of the E-FS and there fore they must win your business other ways, like customer service and better product. If they are not supplying better service and product then they don't really deserve your business.

I to am glad this thread was able to stay civil.

J

I would too if I lived in BC. :)

That said I personally have only done 1 live order shipment (I joined a group buy in February) and everything else live I bought from a LFS I trust to give me quality live goods and I pay a premium for that quality which I dont mind at all.

The same cannot be said for hardware, there is no quality difference for hardware and I will shop the most economical way, unless I need something really quickly and have to buy local, or weight issues (sand, salt) make shipping charges ugly.

I figure if I can ship it to my house for cheaper, the LFS should have been able to do the same and still make a profit, or they are not operating efficiently. (Of course my background is operations management so I have no tolerance for poor business practices and inefficiency)

The only way we're going to see better pricing is through competition. Edmonton as an example, with expansions/new stores - I'm willing to bet prices are going to start coming down, got to visit the relocated/expanded store and it's new saltwater section - prices were what we'd expect to see in calgary. That can only benefit the local reefers, and soon enough I'm sure we'll see other stores coming back into the 'norms'.

Just like the cries of the mom & pop hardware, grocery etc stores when walmart and others moved to town - the LFS's are going to have to adapt to the new world. Pricing competitively, and selling better service & support over their new(er) competitors. We should be seeing better service, better advice and more knowledgeable staff working at these stores. Some of the online e-tailers even offer guarantees on fish health now, I still have yet to see any LFS willing to even offer a discount if a fish dies before it even gets home.

Stopped by one local store in search of a part today, figure they're the local distributor let's visit them first. Doesn't sell parts, was advised to check the mail order companies, as they could get the part to me long before he could. Again, there's a buisness who I will continue to support...

Please note I am offering my opinion here, not that of my employer, etc.

Well 2 reasons really.

Yes the extra ammount of shipping involved accounts for a lot of the difference. Obviously Howdy has a good idea on what it takes to do this but you can not assume that the costs incurred when shipping inverts is the same as fish or corals. If you order a box full of snails from J&L they send it fedex overnight and it's all good, inverts ship well. Try that with fish and you are screwed.

Last time I ordered inverts from J&L (fedex) I figured my total landed cost at 160% of the price. Basically, after taxes, shipping, box charges and stuff a $1 snail cost me $1.60. With fish, air shipped and picked up at the airport that would have been higher, say 250% maybe. You get a lot less fish per box compared to inverts and all that extra water is heavy.

You can mitigate this by making a huge order and splitting the shipping cost over many items. This is what makes group buys attractive to us. If take this idea and apply it to a local store situation things start to make sense. How many stores here order the volume that J&L does? Remeber that they are a large retial store in a major center as well. Maybe if you put 3 or 4 of our local places together you'll get close to that volume.

Does this all come together to justify higher prices here? I think it does most of the time. If you think about it, it also helps explain the difference in Calgary and Edmonton's markets. Prices are much higher in Edmonton partially becuase of the smaller market.

I am looking forward to the increasing competition in Edmonton, with the relocation of one store, and another getting into SW soon, prices should start coming down, and I would prefer to support local when possible. Especially supporting Canadian vs. US.

Alot of this if you look at the market on the West coast will be so much cheaper. cleaners 17.49 compard t o29.99 or 60.00 at sme places. I have seen cleaners go for 80.00 when i was down in New Brunswick. a while back. can you believe that man that is quite the mark up for 1 shrimp...

JMO

AGREED !!!! :mrgreen:

Maybe we should encourage all our local lfs to go in on group buys with each other, then they can all charge a bit less. :biggrin:

... I was in BC this past summer. The prices are nearly the same. I don't know what the big rant is. A grey angel there is $90. A comparable grey angel here is $100. LTA there is $30, one here is also $35. Frags there are $15. Same here. I could go on and on with these examples, but I think I've made my point...

Albert

Your Store is totally different from the all the other stores here is Alberta, i have never been able to find a store here, that even compairs to your pricing, some of your frags at $15 are $65 here in edmonton

so that is what the big rant is about!

ps see you next friday lol

Hey in Halifax I seen people pay $300 dollars for a marine beta while Here I paid $82 for mine at a home based guys house....So I lookk for deals but at the same time The same guy that sold me the fish doent have everything else I am looking for like lights and food and such maybe some different looking corals and So I use the LFS. Sometimes I contemplate on the price.But I know I have been treated with respect there at the store and I will continue to use the store because they took care of me professionally.And wen I had a problem with a specimen.They replaced it...no questions asked.Everyone here has very good and strong points.And you shop where you shop thats it.LFS will try to continue to get your business back.As they all want our business.One happy customer leads to more.

My 2 pennies

George

AGREED !!! Alberts store would have to be the best in Alberta

I support the local shop here in Calgary. (Actualy....... They support me.)

Guess which one! :lol:

Most stores charge the best profit they can make while selling the most quantity. If less was bought, the prices would come down.

ok all the edmonton reefer know the guilty party is, I do want to support local and have and have asked in the past for them to match prices within a reasonable margin but some of the other store say no. These lfs know exactly what others are selling there livestock/drygoods for. The problem is some stores are just trying to get rich quicker. I have to work for my money too but I can't justify the price when i know its 30 bucks cheaper for a single fish in calgary. or a 150.00 in bc shipping included. I do hope with the new stores opening up here it will level the playing field otherwise i guess someone closes there doors and learns the hard way that they have to work with the customer and remember thats who keeps there doors open. and also remember that for every good experience a customer has in a store they only tell 5 people but for negitive encounter 30 people learn about it ( word of mouth ) free marketing it is and now with the power of the web shopping is even more competitive. only the strong survive and willing to change.

I'm hopping that all these new retail/home businesses are not popping up because the money is good because they will find out in a hurry