How big can I go while keeping the same light?
 

Well, I mine as well start preparing and getting info. together for my new tank. I am not in a major rush to get it going, but I'd like it up within the next 3-4 months or so. I don't want to upgrdae too big, because I just don't have the room, but anything is better than the current 20g setup.

I want a cube, I know that much... but I wanted to know, how deep could I go and what general size cube (in gallons) could I go while still keeping only 1x150w HQI over the cube? I do not want to upgrade lights.. I don't want to have to spend too much, I am doing this mainly for the fish, for more room to swim, and more room for corals as well.

I do keep SPS , all acros basically. Thanks in advance , I am looking forward to planning out this setup. It will be basic.. just as my 20g, sumpless and no refugium.. I may make an AC500 fuge though.

If it were me, with that light, I think I'd limit it to maybe 20x20 or mmmmmmaybe 24x24 sized footprints. Just MY preference though, not saying it's right or wrong or better or worse or anything like that.

I personally wouldn't go over 20-22" deep with a 150W, but that's just me. A 20x20x20 or 22x22x22 cube would look pretty sweet.

FWIW - On my 37 Cube (18Wx20Lx24T) I am running 250Watts, I almost wish that I bought a 400W as I find the light intensity really drops off about half way down the tank.

Hmm, I think a 20x20x20 would look cool as well... but I am wondering if the light would penetrate well, seeing as this is in a flood lamp . I don't have a big reflector using this.. hmmm... I definitely want to be able to have a good penetration for SPS and such.

Well, two things come to mind... 1) You don't have to have your height the same as the footprint dimensions. I.e., maybe 24x24x20 or something like that. What height is your 20g right now? Or do you want to go to a higher tank anyhow. 2) If funds are an issue, maybe get the tank first, but budget for a light upgrade in the soon after. I'm sure the light would at least bridge you over the interim.
:)

Hmm, well I am not too sure of the height of my 20g. I do know it's just a standard 20g, but I still don't know the dimensions :redface: The height.. I'd like to make a little higher than what I have now.. maybe a few inches higher.. that's about it.

Funds are not so much an issue if I can do this without the light upgrade haha. I just wanted to keep most of what I have for the most part...

Can you guys help me out in deciding where to go to get the cube built? Quality and price.. and does anyone know how much the cost goes up if I wanted to use starfire on the front pane??

Sorry for all the questions :lol:

Scott, talk to Dennis when you decide what size you want. I think they are backed up a bit in tank building though. (We were talking to Albert about tanks the other week)

If you are doing this primarily for fish, I would suggest a longer tank, because your fish will be much happier with more swimming length before having to turn around. Say a 4 footer. Then Put your HQI in the middle, and have a large rock pile in the middle with your SPS corals on it, right under the MH.

Then just run cheap fluorescents over the rest of the tank, like a FOWLR. This way you only have to spend a little cash on some strip lites, and you will utilize your MH for your light demanding corals in the middle of the tank.

This would be a good setup for future expansion too, you could add a second MH bulb anytime, and make the fluorescents actinics.

But it depends on how much room you have, maybe you dont have 4 feet of space. Just an idea for you.

size wise you could do 24" x 24" with a 150 HQI but max depth I would go with that bulb is 18"

Steve

Okay, perhaps scratch the cube idea .... grr. I am being informed that angels need lots of swimming space (which I didn't know) .. so I am being advised to do a longer tank. I'm having a hard time figuring out what to do here... size is an issue. Length wouldn't be good for two reasons A) I have a modded PVC light fixture made that is only as wide as my 20g tank stand. And B) I don't really have that much space in my bedroom.

Now.. I do want to make the tank more suitable for the Flame... but I just don't know what to do. I'm pretty confused, I am very unfamiliar with tank dimensions and sizes.. I really just want something pretty basic and standard, I'm not too picky. I just need to make the tank a little longer now to make more swimming room for the Flame..

I need some help! haha, thank you.

Scott

Do you have any pictures of this modded light fixture, maybe we can figure out how to mod it again to fit a different tank.

If you want to upgrade your lighting let me know, I have various size used fixtures and MH and fluorescent setups right now.

Do a 24x24x20 cube-ish tank for now and use less rock. That'll give the angel more swimming room for the time being.

Can't have anything hanging from my ceiling unfortunately, hence why I have the PVC mod built.

Hah, of course someone asks me to post a picture of the mod just after I delete all my old photos on my photobucket account . Haha... this is the only thing I have that can show you somewhat what it looks like. It comes off the ground , straight up, then the flood lamp is in the middle.. it's pretty basic.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...rpnewSmall.jpg

(you can see the PVC on the sides coming up... its not too hard to picture the rest.)

Perhaps I could just make the PVC longer.. but in turn that makes it heavier in the middle, which would eventually lead to a bend in the PVC wouldn't it? Also, the coverage is going to be pretty crappy with this flood lamp mod over a long tank.. I think it will anyways.

Looks like you used 1/2" pvc for this PVC light stand, if you want to use the same method but bigger, go with 3/4" or 1" for added strength.

Or use wood, pine shelving is nice, and pretty cheap as far as wood goes.

The 3ft fixture I used on my 50g could also sit on the tank instead of hanging.

Take some time to think about what tank you can fit into the space you have, then once you have the dimensions of the tank we can give more specific advice. I think a shallow 3ft tank with the HQI in the middle would work, if the edges (6" on each side or so) are a bit dark for your liking, you could add some NO fluorescents for cheap just to make it look more even. You can buy the ballast, endcaps, etc cheap for NO at any lighting supply company.

I like this idea... obviously because a cube is what I want... and have wanted one for a while now. If I did just a big island in the middle and left the sides alone it would have fairly good swimming space.. and if I were to make caves and other various hiding spots, etc... what do you guys think?

I realize I've walked into this a little unprepared, tonight I will take measurements of what kind of space I have to work with, although I know it wont be too much... again, why a cube would be better for me.

Sorry.. haha guess it's logic to find out what kind of space I have to work with haha :rolleyes:

You should be good with the 24x24x20 for the flame, that is a 50g tank, same total volume as my 3ft I had my coral beauty in, just different shape.

Leave room on all sides, and build some arches to pass through the middle if you can, and the flame will do well.

Thanks. I think this is what I will attempt... at least I have an idea down now. Something to work off of .... I'll post back measurements tonight of what I have to work with.

I suppose I'll need to buy or build a stand... i'd prefer to buy something, because I am not handy or DIY. What would be a very good, sturdy, yet affordable stand ? Anyone know of anywhere?

A 24" long tank isn't going to do it for the dwarf angel, unless the other horizontal measurement is 36" :wink: A 24"x24" footprint is going to make the fish swim in circles, possibly stunting/deforming its normal physiological needs (from a thread on RC), even though he/she has rockwork caves to swim through/explore.

My rusty dwarf angel is in a 48"x24"x24" high 120g. The tank has less rock than most similar tanks I've seen. The tank has lots of open space and a maze of open rockwork for the angel and other two larger fish to utilize. Having watched the angel's movements throughout the tank, I really wouldn't recommend anything less than 36" long.

Just my 2 cents.

Yikes. Back to the drawing board???

The more I read your post the more angry I get that the LFS told me its okay in a 20g. I wouldn't have expected this from them. What a shame... then again, I am just as much to blame, I should have done more research.

So a cube isnt going to work basically is what yoru saying Bev.. I need something long... bottom line.

Well, if this is the case , then perhaps this fish won't be able to stick with me :( The longer I go, the worse its going to be.. this is in my bedroom where space is very limited.

How well is the flame doing right now in your 20g nano?

I think you said the flame was full grown so you can't stunt its growth.

I do agree 36" would be much much better for this fish.

Bigger is always better. :)

And if you are going to do 24x24, at least you can help it with some good aquascaping so it doesn't have to swim 24" and turn around and go back the same way. In my 36x18" tank my coral beauty would rarely swim the length of the tank, I had a big arch in the middle, so it mostly did figure 8's.

If it is in your bedroom and you sleep soundly to trickling water noise, pull your bed out from the wall, and use a stand tall enough that the tank is right behind your head when you are sleeping. So like the bottom of the tank is at the top of your headboard.

You should be able to do a 3 or 4 foot tank that way, if depth is an issue due to room lenght you could do a 48x12inch 55g.

The flame appears to be doing great... swimming back and forth, grazing on rocks, swimming in and out of the small caves I have..

I do know bigger is better.. obviously if space and some funds weren't an issue, I'd be going all out (trust me) But , I can't... and that's the harsh reality for me. I can't have a big tank.. not yet anyways. This is why I said to hell with it, let me just upgrade to the biggest I can go right now.. while using most of what I have.. (lighting being the #1)

I don't think I want 24" deep... I don't think the light will penetrate that well. I was thinking something like 18-20" max. It's so hard for me to visualize this as well, without actually seeing it.

I think the biggest concers I have right now are :

- Space.. I don't even know if I have enough length to fit in a 36".
- Lighting.. I want to be able to keep sufficient lighting over this tank. 150 HQI doesn't sound like much over 50g??? I can't add any other lighting as it won't work with the PVC mod.

So I want to be able to work around this... and obviously we don't know about the space, I'll measure that tonight though

What about behind your bed? If you can pull your bed out 1 foot, or better yet 18", even a single bed is 3ft wide I think.

Heh, that'd look pretty sweet behind the bed. But that would be far too inconvinient for me. I am actually the lightest sleeper ... I sleep with ear plugs in because the sound of the Seios at night keep me up. lol... it's that bad.

Anywhoo... I am thinking now . I am sure I could make 36" work... the width may be an issue though as well, I think I need to measure my room up before I can set anything in stone... heh

Make it work, YAY! :) Your flame will thank you.

PM me if you are interested in a 3ft hood and 2x250w 20K PFO MH setup. Or 2x400w if you want to go with a taller tank. I know you wanted to use your 150 HQI, but maybe we can work something out or you can sell it. I also have a basic black stand for a 36x18" footprint tank.

2x250w over a 50g (ish) tank? Sounds like overkill lol... no?

Thanks for all the offers , wow.. that's awesome. I'd like to make this work... but as I mentioned, I wanted to do this without spending a fortune.. as I know I can do an upgrade without spending a wack of cash...

I'll PM you so we can discuss some of the options.... ?

Thanks.
Scott

2x250 is what I ran on my 3ft 50g. I'm surprised I didn't get a call from the cops about a grow op :) It was a lot of light! But 3ft is right between needing 1 MH or 2 MH, so I opted for 2.

Try out your 150 HQI in the middle and see what it looks like, you can always upgrade later if you dont think it is enough light. Or like I said earlier, keep most of your corals in the middle 2 feet, and use some NO fluorescents to brighten up the ends if you think they are too dim.

Well... I think I am going to try this:

Figure out the size tank I am going to get, and figure out how much room I have to work with.

Keep the light I have... making sure I don't get a deep tank. Test it out, keeping most corals underneath the bulb. I'll make sure the tank will be suitable for a 150w either way though. I really don't want to have to ugprade lights again.

I think in the end, I'll still end up with a cubish tank, anything is better than what I currently have.. I'll try to use more length than anything...

Just seems like the more I get into this, the more I'm confused in the end. haha.. and basically I wanted to do this all without upgrading a ton of stuff and going flat broke. I know I can do it... but I just want to make sure I do it right.

Also, I wanted to ask. When the day comes that I need to setup the tank... I'll have to do it all at once, seeing as it's in my bedroom. How does one go about this? Remove all corals and rock, placing them in a bin... then removing the fish, then the sand. Correct? From there.. I would clean the living hell out of the rocks and sand, placing them into the new tank in the old ones place. Would this cause any problems??? I will also be adding to the current amount of Live Rock I have.

Basically in the end all's I have to purchase is: (please let me know if I am forgetting things, I am sure I will)

- The tank!
- A Stand.
- Few more pounds of Live Rock (depending on what size tank I choose)
- More sand (I might just buy a brand new bag and use that instead, toss the old out)
- Bigger, better heater
- Couple more buckets.
- Possibly another Seio. I am using two 620's right now and doubt that will be sufficient for a bigger tank.

What else have I forgotten?

I know I have lots of questions/concerns, but I am going to address each of them so I do this right from the start. I feel as if I didn't get into this hobby properly in the first place. I want this to go smooth...

Thanks for bearing with me all.


Scott

You dont have a tank on your list. :)

What are you currently using for a skimmer? It may or may not suit a larger tank.

If you are upgrading, I always recommend a drilled tank with sump, and a closed loop if you can.

Dont add too much live rock at once, or the die off might spike your tank, add is slowly if you add live.

D'oh haha.. your right, a tank might help huh. Also added a couple buckets to the list. I am sure I'll need 'em.

I am using an AquaC Remora right now . I am very pleased with it. I planned no keeping it as I am not going any bigger than 50g anyways.. should do me alright eh?

I know I really should do the whole sump thing, but like I mentioned I am a light sleeper heh. My next tank.. which I know there will be one, will definitely have a sump and fuge. But that's for a tank that's not in my bedroom. Althgouh I may make a modded AC500 fuge, not sure yet.

I'll be okay with adding all my current live rock, then I only plan on buying a few more pounds, so I am sure what I have right now will do and I can slowly add from there. Maybe I'll add only a couple to begin with if I do.

The remora will work great for you.

As for your change-over plans they were good, if you replcae the sand, keep some of the old stuff to seed it with.

Cool.. I figured the Remora would be okay.

Thanks for the reminder, I would have just ended up throwing it all out.

I will call over to some places and get quotes on tanks.

Anyone know a good place in Calgary to buy stands? I just need something simple really...

just a thought why not get a tank that is 24L x 24W x 16H that would make you tank the size of 2 20L if the light is penitrating good to ends of the tank now the a 24 x 24 is not out of reach.

Brad

Well it's good to see that you're trying to do your research before jumping into the upgrade.

An AC500 HOB fuge is a good idea, but you'll probably find the noise level a bit high unless you keep the tank topped up all the time. The waterfall effect can be quite loud if it drops even a couple of inches. If you add a piece of plastic to the outflow, then the water can slide down instead of drop.

I would save some of the old sand as is, wash out the rest thoroughly & add new sand if you need more. You can then add the old sand to seed the washed & new sand.

As for a 36" by 18" tank, you're probably looking at a 45g tank. However, many of these tanks have a black plastic support down the middle (both my 3 feet 65g tanks do). If you cut these on a new tank, it nulls the warranty. If its a used tank, cut away & get a piece of glass the same size to silicone in its place as a less light-blocking replacement support.

If you can get one or two large pieces of LR, that should be enough & they will also make good bases for your aquascape.

To save money, you can DIY a stand easily out of 2 by 4s. These may not be fancy but if done properly, they are very functional & sturdy. My stand for a 160g cost less than $80 & its roughly 82" long, 22" deep & 42" tall. You should be able to do it for $20-30 worth of wood & screws.

As for current, 2 Seio 620s should be fine, if positioned properly, especially with the return from the skimmer as well. I have a single Seio1500 on each 65g & that's plenty of flow. You can hold off on this purchase & see if its necessary later.

My 150w MH (Aqualight Pro) are not powerful enough for the 24" depth of the 65g tanks. However, most of my corals are on the LR structures & closer to the surface light.

If the new tank is going into the same place then you are going to have to set it up right away. I just moved my 2 65g tanks, although I let one sit running without corals or fish for a week due to a slight nitrite spike (may have been a contaminated test tube tho). It's usually better to set it up, test the water after a while & then put in the corals when everything tests fine. That being said, with your old LR going into the new tank, the risks are smaller that things will go wrong. Make lots of extra sw ahead of time & think of this as a massive water change. Have some prime available in case of a small ammonia spike. Save the old water to rinse off the crud on your LR, then you won't have any die-off from using fw.

Sorry for the essay.

Anthony

Wood must be cheaper in BC :)

My 36x18 Hagen didn't have any support down the middle, just depends on the manufacturer and the thickness of the glass they use maybe?

Perfecto tanks have the supports.

HomeDepot or Rona's have 2 by 4s for very cheap around here (Lower Mainland). I figure a stand 3' by 3' by 18" wide would need 2@12' & 1@8' or 4@8'. I usually buy a scrap piece of plywood from them as well to put on top of the stand.

Like I said, I've built 2 3' stands for about $30 each & 2 2' stands for about $20 & 2 6'+ stands for about $80 each. Now if I wanted to make them pretty & add doors, etc, then it would be a whole lot more expensive.

I would add in a piece of the pink styrofoam between the tank and the stand.

Wow thank you very much Anthony.. your post was kind of what I was looking for.

I like the idea of converting the AC500 to a fuge, and you're right.. I would be easily annoyed by the trickling, so that extra plastic idea is great... thank you! I'll definitely do that when I set it up.

I am undecided if I am going to do the 36" long.. I need to visualize it in my room first, and make sure my lights would still work for this. I have a feeling I won't be going 36" long though.. I would hope there is no brace in the middle as thought would seriously cause problems in terms of the light.... but if the tank is only 40g (ish) there may not be one, correct?

As for LR, I do have quite a bit, and I don't think I'd need much more myself either.. so base rocks may be a good idea.

I know I could do a DIY stand, it's just a hassle IMO (but saves lots of cash) I would definitely want it to look somewhat decent, as it's in my room so I dont' want it to be an eye sore. I am positive me and my dad could build something... it's just that it would end up taking so long (he's a perfectionist)

And as for the transfer, it should be somewhat easy and smooth if I do it right from the start... thanks a bunch for going into detail. It helps a lot....

Thanks again

Oh yeah, and if I did do a DIY stand I would have to have doors.. so what bumps the price? Is it just the hinges and knobs and what not?

My dad has a hmm what's that tool... makes nice designs on the edges of your wood... I just had it .... starts with R ??? errrr :rolleyes: So I could fancy it up with that.. he also has a butt load of stains and lacquers as well...

Maybe DIY is the way to go....?