Who's the bullie?
 

http://members.shaw.ca/ruwilling1/video/tangs.avi

The new kid on the block isn't taking any BS from the bigger boy in the his new residense. This video may tell one side of the story, but after about half hour......big boy will always be big boy. I hope everyone can get along by the time the sun rises again.

Wish I could see it, but it just doesn't load!

Sure it does! :biggrin: Not a bad vid, Will. Where and how much? :cool:

I must be crazy then...

my bad and my apologies...

I can see it now and wow, thats great!

Two acanthurus? I couldn't quite make out the bigger fish. :eek:

Is that a Sohal & Powder blue? I thought it was a very bad idea to add any fish in after a Sohal has been established in a tank. :confused: Wow. Nice looking fishes. Hope it calms down in the next few days in the tank :biggrin:

Big fan of Sohals. PBs are a little too delicate/ick-magnets for my preference. Good luck with yours though.

Anthony

The big guy is a Sohal. One mean paddler. I hope he doesn't kill his new buddie. It was a big risk, but I had to try it.

AL, I got him from your brother, Big Al's. $55 :mrgreen: ...sorry I couldn't resist.

I was tempted to add a Sohal to my, uh-hum, over-crowded tank but I thought my 6" A. mata (Elongate tang) would be not be too pleased with that. Especially since it already has to tolerate 3 yellow tangs as tank mates. A sohal will have to wait until the big tank & then be my last-fish-in.

Anthony

So Will, that second tank is filling with SW as we speak? The big one? :mrgreen:

How big is your tank Will?

Not quite, have to hold that off til after the trip.

So far this morning the PB is confined into the corner of the tank by the constant harassment of the Sohal. It's just a one sided beating and large chunks of fins are now missing. Hopefully, the sohal will lead up after time and the PB gets smarter and hides, otherwise this constant punishment won't last long.

http://members.shaw.ca/ruwilling1/vi...ture%20002.jpg

It's a 110g. The strange thing is, there are plenty of hiding places but it just stays in the open. I am assuming that he is a little traumatized by the over-whelming harrassment. With time I think it will realize that it will have to take cover. I know that's what I'd do if was being bombarded.

Maybe the Naso and the other two won't let him hide? Um, this might be an adoption situation...

Not me, though - I've got my own crew that would beat the crap out him. :confused: You need a Tang-less tank prolly - you sure that other tank doesn't have SW in it?? :wink:

won't last long
 

i don't think your pb's gonna last long in that environment. On top of that, they are finicky to start getting to eat when newly introduced in a new tank. If its eating, then at least thats part of the battle.
I lost my first pb because I couldn't trigger it to feed... it died in about 2 weeks. :sad:
I tried again and when I saw it, it was very healthy and already eating at the store. I brought it home and noticed some parasitic bumps on the skin but I thought that keeping it fed with algae and healthy it would lose the parasites. I had it for about 4 months and it was very healthy eating seaweed like a PIG but I also noticed more parasitic bumps they were also getting bigger. So my foolish attempt to help it, I caught it in a fish trap and quarantined it. I treated it with 1/4 recommended dosage of copper to start and within 24 hours, it died :cry: I really beat myself over the head with this one and it actually brought tears to my eyes when I found it. I later read that these tangs are extremely sensitive to copper which I beat myself over the head even harder.
I now have a sohal.... gave up on pb. :redface:

How's the PB doing now?

110 is to small for two tanks when one of them is a sohal

I suggest you remove one of them be for you lose the powder.

Steve

It's a shame to let that fish be bullied to death, but you should have known better Will......shame on you. :frown:

I would be willing to try to keep it alive if there is any hope for it at this point. :confused:

Much better today. He's still hanging in the corner of the tank but isn't been harrassed any more. His appetite is slowly coming back to normal. Hopefully the "initiation" peroid is over and he's now accepted into the gang.

behavior and risk ...........
 

Willito
whats her behavior like? Is it "allowed" to swim around the tank to explore or has it been confined to that corner only?
And how about at night? Does it have a place to "sleep" or does it stay in that corner at night as well?
Just out of curiousity, what other tangs are there in your tank?

I'm sorry but I need to ask who's assuming the risk in this situation? And does the sohal really sees the pb as his buddie? From my perspective, unfortunately its that pb who has assumed the majority of the risk and you have imposed the risk on her with her life ...... and your only loss will be a $55 wager. I'm very sorry to come out so bluntly but I can't foresee a happy ending to this. Please consider adoption. :confused:

CWLee

A lot of things in life are a risk including this hobby. For those like yourself who have a weaker stomach, I can understand your concerns for the animals' livelihood. To me success doesn't come without a risk. I've been observing fish behavoir for 15years and with that experience I have developed a little knack to know what is compatible in my fish tank. Thank you for your concerns but adoption is not being considered. A happy ending is prevailing, as the situation has improved and PB is now swimming freely with confidense. :idea: ??

Sorry I underestimated your experience ............ ?
 

Hey man
No need to get so defensive and what you do with your tank is ultimately your business. I'm just posting my observations and my experience in response to your video, the day-after picture of your pb, and your comments. I was not the only person who disagreed with your new addition so at least I know that I'm not way off track with my own experience.
I think we can all agree on this statement. Where we differ is how we interpret the risks and our actions thereafter. I know we agree that it was risky to put a powder blue into a 100 gallon tank with a mean big Sohal and naso ( :question: is this correct and do you have any other tangs :question: ) My risk assessment tells me to a) consider something else or b) if I REALLY wanted it, upgrade to a bigger tank and add it into the new tank with all the other tangs or c) move all my rocks around then introduce the pb. I guess it comes down to risk calculating and most less experienced people would not have tried to defy Mother Nature and done what you did. However please feel free to express your risk assessment and elaborate the contributing factors to your decision. I would be most interested to learn how you, with your experience, was able to predict and calculate the instinctive territorial aggression levels between the two acanthurus species.

I'm not here to insult your physiological deficiencies and my stomach's "deficiencies" really has nothing to do with the fact that I do feel somewhat responsible for these animals that we have subjected to a life sentence without parole. Take into consideration the territories that some of these fish used to defend against other fish of the same species. I recall vaguely reading somewhere that a queen angel will dominate an area of a football field in the wild. Compare that to an average adult human who claim their average 500-2400 sq feet house as their castle. If we were to ratio a football field to a 30-250 gallon tank, an apartment/house could be compared to a Shoebox? sock drawer? ............... a mug? Having a "weak" stomach really has nothing to do with being considerate to your pet.

Skinny scrawny convicts are also considered "compatible" in the general population of a penitentiary. But after 3 months being stuck in the same cell with a 300 lb power tripping bad-boy who really likes to play house with its own Mommy and Daddy, the poor scrawny convict is still considered "compatible". BUT I'm pretty sure he does not enjoy playing Mommy everytime he's at home.
Now you have put that powder blue as mommy convict, the sohal by default is "Daddy" and the other tangs are "Daddy's friends". Mommy's still compatible but when a pb is usually the daddy in the wild, it probably doesn't like having to look over its shoulder.
Perhaps you can define your criteria for being considered compatible.

Thats great news Willito. I hope it eating and with some luck and time, lets pray that it makes it through all the way.

Nothing is scientific nor by the book here, but has more to do with observation and using common sense. To introduce a new fish into an established tank is a big risk, so by lowering that risk the chances for survival will increase. That new fish must be healthy and in tip top condition before entering the Main tank. What I do is quarantine the fish until it is accepting various foods to accumulate a substantial body fat. This fat can be utilized during the first few days while it is getting used to the surrounding and may not be eating. Or in this case, being chased around.

Once the fish is fit enough, I introduce it into the main tank after the sun sets. This is important because it allows the new fish atleast 12 hr to acclimate to the new environment without stresses put on by other fish. At the same time, fish tend to be a little more sluggish to start any kind of war. Re-arranging the aquascape is also ideal for this condition but I don't have that luxury.

When the Sun comes up, I make sure that I am around for atleast two hours to watch. The initial confrontation with the new and old fish is inevitible. Let mother nature takes it course. If you're lucky and have prepared it well, it may not be dominated by the established tankmates.
My situation was of the contrary. The PB was eating and was healthy, but the one tankmate was fierce. As expected, the Sohal won the war and took dominance over the PB. Tore it's fins and confined it into a corner.

The next 24 hours is critical in determining whether or not the PB will be compatible in this environment for short term. Observing the behavior of the Sohal and PB every hour while the light is on is critial. If the Sohal was reluctant on chasing/beating on the PB, then it's obvious that it won't survive and one has to be removed. In my case, the PB was confined in the corner for a few hours without further harrassment by the Sohal. As time went by, the breathing of the PB returned back to normal and it started inching out of the corner. By night fall it started grazing on nearby rocks. At this time, the Sohal would occassionally swim by and flared it fins, but no contact would occure. This is a good sign.

On the following day, I placed two pieces of Nori into the tank. One at one end for the big guys and one in the corner where the PB was hanging.
Everyone had there fills without incident. As the day progress, the PB ventured a bit more into the open under the watchful eyes of the Sohal. The fin damages are slowly healing and body weight is slowly back to where it was when it first enter the tank.

Today the fins are in better shape, the stomach is full, the colors are brilliant, and the swim is much easier than anytime before. The PB is now eating from the same Nori clip as the rest and is scavanging on one half side of the tank. Hopefully the entire tank by week's end. Long term survival is looking a little more promissing now.

No hard feelings Chin, I guess I should have described a better picture throughout. Peace! :mrgreen:

that still doesn't justify putting that many tangs in a tank that small. :rolleyes:

Steve

Justify??? That's funny, didn't think I was. I merely described the method that I use that has been sucessful for me. If everyone had a mentality of an animal activist, the reef hobby wouldn't be around buddy.

:rolleyes: who is talking about animal activists. I did a 5 min search on the Internet, first on the PB and this is what popped up as an average opinion

"Minimum tank size: 100 Gallons

Behavior: This species is of average hardiness, at times being a little difficult when first introduced into the aquarium environment. Once settled, this species should do well for the aquarist over a long period of time. The Powder Blue Tang is a very shy fish, it needs many hiding places in your aquarium. It can also not be kept in aquariums with aggressive fish and with aggressive eaters, not even other tangs exhibiting this behavior. The powder blue will always be out competed for food and will, eventually, give up trying to eat completely at all going into a "starvation mode," leading to quick and serious deterioration.

Cautions: The Powder Blue Tang can be somewhat aggressive towards other tang species so it is not recommended that you mix this species with other tang species unless it is in a large aquarium environment. Keep only one per tank. "

the sohal was even better

"Minimum tank size: 180 Gallons

Behavior: Can be a very aggressive fish, often nipping at and harassing other less aggressive tank mates. Additionally, it is extremely difficult to keep this species with other tang species as they will constantly harass each other, often until the death of one of the fish. However, aggression may be lessened in a very large aquarium. "

a few other sites suggested 100 gal as a min for the Sohal but recommended bigger.

so going by what is out there and freely available for information and I will go with the smallest recommendations I found to have those two tangs you should have a min of a 160 gal tank, but you have 3 tangs in there don't you?

Personally I could care less what you do with your tank, but don't try to justify your self to us when we ask about a possible problem with rhetoric about how you are some miracle worker with aggressive fish. If you cared so much about them to spend that much time to make sure they don't kill each other you wouldn't have put them in the same tank to start with.

Steve

Again, I am not trying to Justify anything. I am no miracle worker, but I do have success with big agressive fish in small quarters. If you go by the book and do everything recommended by others, then hey that's your prerogative. I take it as a grain of sand, as a reference to do better and exceed those before me. What's the point of hobby if you don't take a little risk to have a more enjoyable reef. There's no need to get bent out of shape because I have beaten the odds and done what you wouldn't or couldn't do.

but I used to do that as a normal thing, back when I fist started with fish only tanks I used to look at fish as a disposable commodity, if they fought the fought, if they didn't that was good as it would be a longer time span between replacing fish. But that was about 15 years ago, and sense then I have evolved into looking at it as trying to set up the best environment in my capability/money that I can for the critters in my tanks. We used to have a tank that was 4 foot wide, 8 foot long and 3 foot tall in the basement of our house in Edmonton that was fresh water until one night it cracked down the middle. I can tell you that 700 gal of water makes a mess :mrgreen: at any rate we were able to get it repaired and did a fish only salt water tank of 300 gal. Then we loaded it full of fish. for the most part there wasn't really any "fish killing fish" going on except for the grouper eating the occasional small fish. if you pack fish tightly they become more docile out of necessity. I think we had 3 larger angels about 6 different tangs, and about 12 other fish ranging from a small grouper to damsels. when I think about it now although all that was seen was the occasional squabble it wasn't anywhere near natural for any of those fish to have so many tank mates, and the more I learn the more I realize that by taking the fish/corals out of the ocean we are responsible to look after them as well as you can.

Back then there used to be a fish fighting group. you would buy the biggest meanest freshwater fish you could find, and go around pitting it against Buddy's fish and bet on the winner. I never did get into that as I though it was kinda cruel and my Dad would probably be asking where I was going with the Oscar :mrgreen:

Steve

thank you
 

Amen. :exclaim:
It happens too often that our desire to please ourselves visually with the addition of a new fish is so great that we overlook the primary objective of replicating their natural environment to the best of our ability. Have we really beaten the odds or is it that our animals have a greater survival instinct for which we take the credit for "beating the odds" :question:

That is probably the worst advice ever given on this board.

Well now isn’t this an interesting and highly combustible thread. Thought I would jump in.

Will, I have met you, and know that you are a nice guy, so this is purely metaphorical.

Jonathan has invited us to his place for the meet, yet he knows full well that we don’t get along (hypothetically of course). We are the same species but I’m just a mean b%#rd. I can’t help myself it’s the Irish/Lebanese. Once you arrive at his place, and as soon as I see you, I pick up a big stick and chase you around his basement until you are frantic, out of breath, and hyperventilating. It is a relatively small space but you manage to find solace hiding behind the frag tank, however, I’m cruising the room keeping an eye on you. Each time you try to come out, I’m going to whack you on the noggin or the hand with my stick (I’m not into nipping at your fins). I may break a few fingers and add a few goose eggs to your melon but hey, they ‘ll heal.

After a few hours, I get tired of this, besides there is food being served. Now, you can’t share any of my food but Alan is nice enough to bring you a few scraps to your hiding place behind the frag tank. Slowly you start to venture out but every once in a while I chase you back into hiding just to keep your heart rate up and make sure you are on constant alert and in fear of a beating.

Finally, things have calmed down a little and it’s time for everyone to leave, But wait there is a massive snowstorm and now we are stuck in Jon’s’ basement. Apparently, it will take weeks, months maybe forever to dig us out.

Better sleep with one eye open

Sounds like fun eh

Interesting analogy, Scott :lol: Reminds me not to add any more fish to any of my tanks because I am already at my limit :smile:

A little more drama and excitement that I can use in my life...that's all good.

compatible?
 

Scott
Hey just wondering if Will is considered "compatible" at your meet? :eek:

Funny! :lol: (NOT! :sad: )

Maybe the other fish will take your stick away and give you a beat down!(hypothetically of course) :biggrin:

I think u guys should just drop it. He has 2 tang that are now living together maybe not peacefuly yet but hopefuly they eventualy. I think he came over great bounderies making sure both fish got food. and i am sure he would have taken out the lesser tang if he had to. Well done Will and I hope the fish learn to live together. :biggrin:

Finally an expert :rolleyes:

IBTL

you guys are HOLARIOUS! :lol:

:rolleyes:

Ha!

IBTL?

Yeah Deb. What's IBTL? If it's dirty, :redface: just pm me the meaning :biggrin:

Anthony