The dearth of spirited discussion
 

Hi all,

It seems like reef forums have been getting very quiet over the past 2 years or so. Not just canreef, but even huge forums like RC. When I first started reading forums there were often lively discussions on any number of topics. It seems like outside of buy and sell most threads are "ID this critter/algae/coral" or newbie questions that have been asked a thousand times.

Where are the raging debates? The new technique? Some game changing gear?

I wonder if the hobby has developed to the point that many previous open questions have been closed, rendering debate moot. For example:

- Plenum/DSB/miracle mud systems are out, and have lost vocal proponents

- LED lights are a proven viable lighting system, leaving the debate of MH vs T5 vs LED to high end sps systems and which light (or combination of lights) bring out the best colour (with enough examples of great looking successful tanks using any combination to prove that any could work).

- siphon drain systems (Herbie or BA) are common. The most spirited debate is whether one should keep the open channel in a Herbie completely dry or run a slight trickle through it.

I'm sure we can think of any number of things that used to inspire heated words that now barely rate a comment.

Is this the new normal? Is there something on the horizon to be the next hotly contested thing? Or am I out to lunch on this whole thing, and things are as lively as they've ever been and it's me that has changed? 😄

When people are entrenched with their opinions and beliefs, what's the point of arguing? I still see people saying and doing stupid things (IMO) and then wonder why they lose fish, or their corals don't grow. I guess Einstein's old definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results) will always live on...

No, I think you're pretty close. Also, with the increase in social media, lots of people tend to gather in local/regional pages and discuss stuff. Our local Victoria page is still fairly active, with all the newbie questions and concerns.

I also see a shift in hobbyist mentality. Most seem like they're too busy to participate, and simply use online resources as a place to buy or sell items. As you mentioned, most things ever wondered about are already talked to death, and can just be referenced. I don't need to ask anything, I can use Google and find someone that already asked it.

More and more I see a "what's in it for me" thought process. Where I have annually had reef meets/swaps at my place, less and less people came because there was nothing for them in the way of adding to their collection, or profits to be made. The idea of just gathering and chatting in person with like minded people seems to be lost. This year was the last year I'll be hosting this..

I know for me, as a long time hobbyist, the hobby no longer appeals to me the way it did 10 years ago. To be honest, I can't even say I like the hobby, or at least the people in it these days.

I've dropped from all but one Facebook group (only because I own the one group) and even my participation here has mostly stopped. I suspect that after the xmas holidays, I probably won't even come here anymore.

Ya, that's another one. And as the misinformation is passed, it gathers steam. I see often where someone will ask a question. I answer (with the tried and true right answer), but 10 people with less than 6 months give some other (stoopid) answer, and majority wins. So I give up. Figure it out yourself, like I did 20 years ago. Ya, it's going to cost you money and/or livestock losses, but hey, the Internet said that was right, so have at 'er!! :)

Well, with Canreef now, seems that vendors rule, and hobbyists are 2nd class... That why there are more and more moving to other facebook groups. Again, JMHO.

No, the status quo has never changed in all the years in operation.. And as stated in the OP, all boards are suffering the times. There's just a couple people here that think they should have greater privilege. This board, as is every board, is a business. It's customers are the ones that finance the operation. The members are guests, that while ultimately drive the business model, still guests and need to abide by the rules or find somewhere more suitable to their preferences. Yes, some FB groups provide that, while some have just as many rules/issues as boards. Just more variety. Will the forum model simply die out one day? Probably, yes. That's just times a changin, progress progressing.

However, that is NOT the topic of this thread, so let's not make it about that, k? :)

:sad:

I will restrain my post to the effect on Canreef, as I have too little experience with other forums to form an opinion on forums in general.

Canreef used to be a community, and something pretty special (personally) as it was the major motivation for me in the hobby. In my opinion the lack of discussion isn't because the issues have been beat to death, rather the members have left (for a myriad of reasons, most of which have been listed).

Simply put I didn't come back for the discussion I came back for the community. When Canreef lost Doug it was very evident, when Canreef lost Denny it was even more so. Checking in now-a-days all I see is discussion between mods, which is disheartening as this forum used to captivate me entirely. Now I'm just back for the occasional sale thread and to reminisce about the glory days.

Just my 2 cents.

*LED vs MH vs T5*

I will start off by saying I have not used MH's over a reef tank, only a reptile tank :)

My progression of lighting has been PC's, T5's, LED's and the LED/T5 combo. I have never skimped and always bought/built the best version of each genre. The more recent debate in my mind is do LED's give the necessary spread/blend of light required for a thriving reef? They have the PAR/PUR power no doubt, but is it delivered in a fashion to truly compete with a good MH/Ballast/reflector combination?

I can't really say either way since I've never had the MH setup. But I have had a nice overdriven T5 system! I started my new tank with 3 x Mitras 6100's and eventually decided to add 4 x 48" T5's to help with shaded areas and maybe give the corals a little more spectrum to work with for colour. I like the current blend I have now but after seeing what one_divided could do in around a year in his current reef tank with MH lighting it really does make me think about adding a little MH supplementation to my system. I'd have a LED/T5/MH combination for lighting :) Best of all worlds.

Discuss!

Really? this discussion is so dead

Dearth lol. That is all

I would argue that the nature of the internet has changed, and with it, so has the means of dialogue. Let's not forget that it's really only been widely accessible since the late 90's.
It's a bit like the video game industry - look at the type of games that are achieving success now vs. how they were back in the early 2000's.

TLDR - stuff changes.

And this is why I may stop coming here as well now. Nothing is dead, every topic can be debated and discussed.

Me too. Everyone knows MH is the best. Or at least everyone should. Pfft.

I would also mention that fiery opinions or debates, for whatever merit they may carry, tend to end up with a round of asinine circle-jerking before they die out. You only need to experience that so many times before you become numb to it.

Ya, there's that :)

I agree, and I don't long for petty squabbles. I think I am surprised by how quickly standard practices have been settled. I must have started getting into the hobby at some sort of transition time (started looking into it about 5 years ago).

then why can't i sell mine? you want them? :biggrin:

Wrong size, sorry :) I run 400w. Saw a post today where someone is looking for some. Browse around.

I used to frequently obsess over this hobby but lately I feel almost a bit pushed away from it, and one huge driver is the sheer cost of things compared to a decade ago. Whereas in the early days, there were lots of expensive things, there were also a lot of DIY attitudes and experimentation that made things fun. I don't seem to see a lot of that cowboy'ing anymore?

Now everytime I see a new product, first of all, there's pressure to "preorder" it before it's even hit the market; and odds are good that whatever it is, I can't afford it anyhow. Part of it is my own station in life, have kids now, other expenses other priorities etc. but my own subjective feel is that it just costs more now.

I find it's actually cheaper now. My original set of Tunze pumps cost $1000. I can move the same water now for a fraction of that. Many items haven't changed at all. Bulbs are cheaper, heaters, about the same, salt, about the same. Sure, all the new fancy gimmick toys cost more, but they aren't really needed. I'm actually surprised prices have stayed as constant, or in some cases, dropped as they have.

Only thing I see costing more are frags. Where 20 years ago I could buy a whole bucket of nice frags for 100 bucks, now I get one frag.

I think keeping reefs has also become much easier. When I started, it was a craft to get a nice SPS tank. You had to work at it. Now, it seems it's add water and stir. Takes the challenge out of it :)

My biggest thoughts these days are thoughts of envy when I see people posting shut down sales. Maybe another year or two for me, just to get this tank where I planned, then I'm done. Just tired of it all.

Nail in the coffin. Why start up another thread on a topic already beat to death, and wait hours for responses, when you can just google the answer. I suspect it's because reefkeeping has reached a stalemate of sorts. People have found what works, almost turned it into an ehow webpage for dummies and until any game changing technologies or revolutionary techniques show up, there's not much else to ponder.

As much as I have been a lurker on these forums, I've come to enjoy your posts, and as is with anything else, it might be healthy to take a small break, or vacation. But you can never truly quit. :mrgreen:

As a newbie I'm scared to attempt to DIY stuff.The fear of harming my tank is greater than my disappointment at shelling out $$. I saw a post on how to build a skimmer from an air stone and a waterbottle. I would WAY rather do that than spend a couple hundred bucks- but I don't trust being able to figure our how its working for my tank. Purchasing something a fancy company has poured R&D into just seems 'safer' even if it is way less fun.

Money is what has kept me at bay from starting up this hobby for years. :(

I've found in the last 5 years that there is so much more science behind it all that there isn't as much to debate in any given topic. There are more scientists involved, and papers you can read. There aren't any reef related scientists here or even members with associated degrees. I find all sorts of interesting topics on other forums where really qualified people can answer questions and not so much debate, but work as a group to figure things out. That's what I think is lacking at Canreef - REAL experts. The sponsors aren't as active as they used to be a few years ago either. Aside from good discussions on "new" topics, I like to read Tank Journals.

All the above and the wholesale loss on all antagonistic posts that sometimes maaaayy have walked on the wrong side of the line but were usually meant in fun.... Most of the time but always lead to wonderful mayhem. So much fun.

Brad if you're not coming back after Chistmas I'm done....Ban me for the third and final time.

Speak for yourself ;) 4 yr B.Sc. with Hon in Palaeobiology. I studied my fair share of fossilized vertebrates and invertebrates :)

But I know what you mean, I'm not elbow deep in the aquatic research tanks anymore.

I'm not sure that's directly relatable - except maybe Coelacanths. :D

Myself I would rather not read nor hear from scientists. They're write ups are totally boring and put me to sleep. I'd much rather hear from a hobbyist, it's easier and way more interesting as they speak in layman's terms. I've read so many posts from the cut copy and paste scientists and they are proven wrong so many times. People take this hobby way too far and it's really not as difficult as one thinks. It scares people away constantly hearing that scientific talk. That and the cost of the hobby.

Well locally, almost all the old-timer fellow reefers I knew in the early 2000s have since quit, completely downsized or are in a holding pattern (ie. not changing anything & no longer participating much). For me, not having my buddies in this hobby anymore is a real bummer. I understand though because life happens. When things change, like having kids or kids growing old and more involved in extracurricular activities, its hard to stay focused and devote a lot of time to reefing. Also, sometimes work is just so busy that there's little time to do more than take a quick look at the "New Posts" items and then back to work.

Maybe for Xmas, ok? lol

Oh I love when I read something I don't understand. That means I have to go learn something. I find it way more interesting to try to extract bits and pieces and apply it to some new methodology or using that information to define anecdotal evidence.

Well, I could talk more about why canreef might be declining, but my knuckles are getting sore from being rapped so much. And oh, this was supposed to be a topic about spirited discussions...

I will still say though, that it is the experienced hobbyists that make this forum great. I myself was very inspired with some of the tanks and pics I have seen here. Talk and opinion is sometimes interesting (incl the drama), but what really means the most to me is demonstrated success with journals and pics.

Science is great, but as others have said, it can be lost in the interpretation and may not always be applicable, or practical, and feasible to the regular hobbyist. And even right here on this forum, have seen some abominable examples of so called scientists (or students in the field) that have totally messed up their tanks with misguided applications of their theoretical assumptions.

So, for me proven success is what matters most. And sure would hate to see those people leave the forum.

I think Canreef was the most exciting when the buy and sell popped up in Active Threads.It made for a very active page. I felt that I always had to be checking back to in fear of missing some great deal.
I understand that the vendors maybe didn't like this in fear that they were losing out on business but they are wrong. A more active fourm will only draw more clicks in the Vendor Forums driving customer to there web pages. More users on canreef = more $ in the vendors pockets.

I assumed the boards were slow due to the time of year but also think the boards slowed down when the buy/sell rules changed. I know of a couple members that quit coming on here at that point . Also been reading about people leaving the hobby/not enjoying it anymore quit a bit. To be honest this is my main forum I go to reef central once in a while to read through the shallow tank club thread and the pipefish/seahorse thread as there is not much pipefish activity on here . Discussion can get burned out when there is limited activity IMO I'm sure it will pick up . Also agree that topics have reached a point where a lot of info can be found by googling , when I started the info was not out there like it is now . To be honest even though the questions may get repetitive it's still better to ask in a thread as you may find out something you were not directly looking for . Im just glad after 11 years in the hobby Im still excited as ever with the hobby , really hope that the day where the hobby does not interest me at all never comes .

All I get in new posts in buy/sell. Not sure what you mean about active posts?

Oh, I see what you might be doing. I simply navigate the site by clicking new posts. It's all there.

Sounds like a lot of jaded folks on here! What could we do to make it more entertaining on the site, coral auctions? More vendor give aways? I thought it was pretty awesome when I had a chance to go to MACNA, actually I think Concept is the only vendor I have seen offer anything for free

When viewing the fourm on my iphone or ipad there is no new post tab available. I am sure I am not the only person on ios. I wonder how is appears
on android

[IMG]http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/...psyilefse6.png[/IMG]

You have to be logged in to see the new post tab

I think you have to be logged on before the New Posts tab appears.