Sand bed binding????
 

Does NE1 know why or reasons my sandbed is binding like a slab of aragonite rock?????

Sand bed binding????
 

Ace, what are you using for sand? Do you add supplements to the tank? New sandbed or old?

Sand bed binding????
 

Hmmm...I didn't give you guys much to work with; Anyways here it is:

-50G with 25G refug.
-Tank is 3 months old
-Sandbed consist of 50/50 suger grade aragonite and 2mm coarse aragonite sand(about 3 1/2" deep)
-I use Kalk solution for top off(about 1gallon a day).
-Only other thing is iodine.

Thant's all

[ 24 September 2002, 23:25: Message edited by: Ace ]

Sand bed binding????
 

This is just a guess but do you have lots of sand critters, worms, etc. ?

I ran into the problem with a remote sump attached to an established tank. And in retrospect, it never got coloration etc. in the sandbed like one should see.

Is that light related too??? Just wondering now.

Sand bed binding????
 

Are you using a fully saturated solution of kalk? That is 2 tsp/gal. Are you adding vinegar to the kalk solution? During the first three months of a sandbed, excess calcium can react with the aragonite, almost using it as a seed for deposition. This is why you often hear people complain about Ca levels during the early months. Since, and I'm assuming, you don't have a tank full of calcium hungry SPS yet, you have excess calcium going into the system. Something to keep in mind is you don't need to use a fully saturated CaOH mix. I would probably determine how much alkalinity your system consumes and add accordingly. I'll see if I can find an email from Craig Bingman on determining Ca/alk requirements. I would probably cut the kalk dosage in half(unless you can verify you need it) and make sure you don't get large pH swings. This may affect the solubility of the sand and at least be a partial cause of the clumping.
Is it becoming solid all the way thru, or just the surface?

Sand bed binding????
 

I did see lots of pods worms etc in my main tank a month back, but recently it seems the populations has decreased thanks to my hardden sandbed :mad: , however in the fug there are still lots of critters.

Sand bed binding????
 

I had the problem in my 72gal that I added only kalk for top off. It is possible you are adding more Ca than your system requires. Try cutting back a little. I was also having this problem on my new tank that has a Ca reactor. I eased up on the amount of CO2 I was adding (thanks Marc) and voila, sandbed isn't clumping.

Sand bed binding????
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just in areas around the corners of my tank where there is good flow of water.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ya! I guess I should cut back on Kalk and see.
And yes! I did use vinegar for about a month but stopped after finding my alk was dropping too low.

Sand bed binding????
 

There have been reports of vinegar causing this, but it is rare. I don't have that problem and I've been using it for a while. I premix the kalk powder(8 tsp) with about 80ml of vinegar and then add this to my makeup water(5 gal.).
For your problem, I'd say cut back the kalk to what you realistically need, and poke the clumped areas with a stick or something. Your alk also should not drop from adding vinegar (or calcium acetate if premixed). You may want to do a search on Craig Bingman,,he's written tons of stuff about this.

Sand bed binding????
 

Thanks guys....I guess I have to dig out my 2 feet long chopsticks to poke into my sand bed for a while until it stop clumping.

Sand bed binding????
 

Why do you add vinegar with your kalk ?

Sand bed binding????
 

Sand bed binding????
 

I had the same problem with my tank around the 2-4 month mark. Would get crusty on the top in certain areas of the tank and I would just periodically break it up. The problem completely disappeared after about 6 months. I have used Kalk with and without vinegar and have not noticed any relationship to the problem.
HTH

Sand bed binding????
 

Thanks for the info, I guess I just have to wait and see

Sand bed binding????
 

The crusting can also be a result of insufficient sand bed fauna/infauna activity. Without a sufficient turnover rate of the substrate a bacterial matrix will form due to bacterial inactivity (which can be compounded when highly saturated kalk solutions and such are being dosed rapidly and calcium phosphate is precipitated).

This is often an occurence in younger systems with immature or "improperly" set up sand beds. Also, aggressive crustaceans like Cleaner and Peppermint shrimp etc. can quickly devastate the fauna population of a young, maturing sand bed.

Check out this thread on RC for a rather lengthy debate on the subject: Clumping Sand Beds

Sand bed binding????
 

Andrew points out a large reason why. Lack of critters in a new system and of course, to fast of an addition of kalk or other calcium raising additions.

I was just asking Julian Sprung questions on that at Reefs Org Mag. question forum. He had said in his plenum article, that high alk. could perhaps contribute to clumping.

Anyhow there are a couple good answers there from both Julian & Dana Riddle.

Sand bed binding????
 

Doug:

Would you have an URL to those articles??

TIA

Sand bed binding????
 

Two excellent online mags, with some of the best authors in the buisness.

www.advancedaquarist.com

The one above is run by reefs.org staff. That one contains the article we are mentioning. By the way I meant Craig Bingham & not Dana Riddle.

Another great mag, run by RC

www.reefkeeping.com

For feedback with the authors, check under forums.

Sand bed binding????
 

Doug Thank you plenty!!! ;)

Sand bed binding????
 

Ron Shimek(pers conv) mentioned that sand bed clumping is from bacteria binding the grains together. He went on to say that if you put the clump in bleach it will turn into sand again as the bleach breaksdown the binding bacteria/proteins.

The solution to the problem is to incorporate sandbed critters such as conch, nassarius to stir the sand. More imortantly is to have critters that eat the bacteria off of the sand ... enter sand sifting cucumbers such as the Tigertail, pink belly and black.

Cheers,
Tim

Sand bed binding????
 

Ron's mentioned that in more places than a conversation but it's still only one possibility. The rest of what is mentioned above are all valid as well.

Sand bed binding????
 

In four years of reefkeeping so far, I've never had problems with substrate clumping until I tried being serious about maintaining simulatenous high alkalinities and high calcium. Don't get me wrong, in general I hang off every word of Dr. Ron, and that's an interesting theory about the bacterial clumping, I don't disbeleive it for second; but, I beleive my experience does support validity to the other opinions as well.

To be certain, it is good to maintain a good population of sand stirrers. I would like to try one of these tiger tail cukes some day. Anybody know how big they get?

[ 28 September 2002, 19:49: Message edited by: delphinus ]

Sand bed binding????
 

Tiger tail cucs get up to 2 metres. The biggest I have seen is 17".

Trivia: Some people squeeze the gut out, dry them and eat it. It's called Beche de mer.

Cheers,
Tim

Sand bed binding????
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">eww are you sure it is the guts Tim, I have eaten local cucumbers and we threw out the guts and kept the 4 strips of mussels that are inside them. they are realy realy good saute'ed in garlic and butter.

Steve

Sand bed binding????
 

Sorry to scare you heh heh heh. [img]tongue.gif[/img] I should have written it differently.

They throw out the guts and dry the rest. That is what I originally meant.

Cheers,
Tim

Sand bed binding????
 

I have two Tiger-tail cukes in my tank, one is about 6" long and the other about 8" long. I have had them for just over a year now. They are slow growers, perhaps 2-3" per year.

Try to find a smaller one (less than 6") and you'll have it for a long time before it grows overly large. Even if it did get to 18", it still wouldn't be any trouble in your tank as they stay down on the sandbed, come out only at night, and are tireless workers. Nice looking too!

Sand bed binding????
 

I have both a 7" Tiger tail and a 2" Fighting conch. My cuke was 4" when I bought it a couple of months ago, it's incredible how much it's grown in the time I've had it. Somewhere in my tank I also have a brittle star, even though I haven't seen him since I put him in.

I haven't had any problems with clumping in my DSB. But I used 50 kg of play sand and only 15 kg of aragonite. My DSB is working great, and I was able to remove my skimmer almost a month ago. My water is staying crystal clear, and I have one less thing sitting in the tank (more room for fish [img]smile.gif[/img] ).