Why balling properly is so important
 

I have been asked to repost this a few times, it explains very simply the issues with balling light systems 3 parts system and 2 part systems and why it is important to follow the methods that the inventor of balling (hans werner balling) developed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZy7RS8kEag

sorry ,

Who is the inventor again ??

Hans Werner-Balling :mrgreen: :multi:

I guess regular water changes make his point about the additional sodium and chloride moot. I only say this after using regular 2 part on my aquarium for 5yrs and getting excellent results.

That's tough to argue with.

He says if you do the standard 10% water changes per week, you are only removing 10% of the ionic imbalance problem.

this is the biggest trap people seem to fall into. If you change 20% of the water you only change 20% if the imbalance, leaving 80% unbalanced.

this is why it can take up to 8 weeks to stabilizes a system that switches to the correct balling method

You can argue with science the facts are so simple. 2 part and 3 part that does not employ NACL with all the 70 trace elements WILL cause an imbalance, whether you wish to believe true science or not is not my concern. However it goes back to the whole point of keeping corals and a marine system and that is to replicate nature,. By doing 2 part, balling light or however you wish to name it, you are trying to beat nature to save a few dollars but happy to throw expensive corals into that imbalanced environment.

Hans werner balling put his name to a system that replicates nature, why then try and cut it back and turn it into something its not or even try and disprove simple science?

Now thats where I struggle to understand the logic ;)

You may have good results right now but have you see what results you would get doing it properly, thats a very valid question also

One other important point to add is that you cant use any old NACL the whole point of Hans's system is that you are adding sea salt to your system minus the salt, so the NACL you use must have ALL the 70 trace elements in it that your salt mix would have.

watch the last part of Hans speach in the video, he does explain this.

2 and 3 part leaves you with an imbalance of sodium chloride with nothing to balance it to. (unless you do a 100% water change, water changes will not stop this) The part C in TM's system balances the scales by giving the free sodium chloride left with the correct 70 elements to balance to. the combined result is SEA SALT! Neither 2 part or 3 part (balling light etc etc do this)

Yes TM's system raises very slightly your salinity (so does two part or 3 or balling light system) but the difference is the raised sodium in TM's original balling system is balanced with the correct other elements so any water change done in TM balling is balanced therefore any % water change does not leave an imbalance as the water is already balanced.

Plain simply unarguable science!

How can it be SO important if I can get world class results and an RCTOTM after over 5 yrs of regular 2 part use. And I was adding a lot more than the average user would.

Maybe the true balling. system is a better way but it won't make or break your system.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5xl3rtmlze9hz6o/FTS.JPG

what every one forgets is that 2 parts and 3 parts are just cut down versions of natures way of doing it properly ie true balling. what are you trying to prove by cutting away at the proper way of doing something,

Yes running your car on half flat tyres will get you home but that does not mean its the right way to get home.

the questions are why make short cuts in an environment you are trying to replicate in nature? You may argue cost, well you are happy to spend $$$$ in trying to keep your new delicate species alive so why risk it with something that goes against the fundamentals of simple reef chemistry?

second is, yes there are some tank that look good on 2 part but there are also many tanks that were doing good and switched too the proper method and then did even better.

Lots of the great tanks show great photos rarely do they report the struggles. Its only coming to light now with proper education that short cuts are not needed and doing it properly reaps the benefits for those that wish not to argue with natures way.

Old saying you can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink.!!

We can all post fancy photos of corals until the cows come home but that does mean the system used is working to produce those colours, neither does it re write basic science. I can spend all day showing off colourful frags, but lets talk about the real reasons you should use the proper system.... TANK HEALTH, doing what is required in nature to provide the best environment for your system long term.

This is about doing it properly, doing it right, giving your system the best chance to work in harmony. Yes tanks do ok on other systems but is doing ok enough? Are you prepared too continue breaking the fundamentals of reef science when there is a system out there that does it as it should be done? what is there to gain from cutting this corner? I have read posts about fighting commercialism, any system is commercial even 2 part you still have to buy something to follow 2 part.

Balling is NOT about colouration thats only part of the story its about growth, health, long term balance.

There is nothing to gain by not doing it properly.

Since when is adding synthetic chemicals natures way of doing it properly (or at all)? Nothing we do in this hobby is natures way. We can't replicate it. A bit off topic.
Not trying to prove anything, just trying to have a beautiful, thriving reef aquarium. The "proper way" is simply your opinion. Does the proper way mean there is only one way?
huh, not sure Im following. I thought we were discussing aquarium dosing methods.
I think you may be overstating the risks (which is why Im getting involved) or if there is a risk at all. Again I surely did not see any obvious negative effect.

Struggles of what? My tank was probably 90% grown from frags, healthy for many years straight. Im not going to argue that it was 2 part dosing alone that did this, just like I wouldnt argue if something went wrong that it was the cause. The problem with people making hard line statments that say only this way works is that people who do have problems go looking for answers and listen to these arguments. Ultimately this confuses them into changes that wont solve their problem.

Oh and nature again?

So now you are questioning whether or not I'm telling the truth?
Please show me these studies that show how these levels get elevated and/or depleted and the negative effects on corals because if that is the case Im not sure why my system had stayed so healthy for so long. Plus countless other personal friends and friends on forums who use simply 2 part as well.

Hey I like pictures, but lets see some colourful colonies grown from frags instead.

Maybe in the 6th year my tank would have fallen apart?

Why such a staunch hard line on the subject. I really wouldnt be taking you to task if you didnt draw such a hard line on the subject. Firstly my tank was far beyond average or OK by any normal hobbyist standard. I was completely satisfied (and sometimes amazed) by the performance, health, colour etc. Doing it "as it should be done" is your opinion.

Im not fighting commercialism. Im simply doing what anyone does with any purchase. You do a cost benefit analysis. Just like I know that a bubble king skimmer would have been a better skimmer, I didnt purchase one. Why, well because of budget constraints and fact that the bubble king skimmer did not guarantee me better results over all with my tank. There are lots of great tanks not running the "best" possible equipment.

Now I will say chemistry is a little different. But nothing I've seen or experienced made me believe that I NEEDED to do a full balling system in order to have a gorgeous, thriving reef tank. Many TOTM's have ran ordinary 2 or 3 part systems.

FYI, I also have only used Instant Ocean. [gasp]

There might not be anything to gain by not doing a full balling system but there might be anything to gain by doing it either.

As I said you cna take a horse to water but you cant make it drink.

You say "the proper way" is my opinion, again its not my opinion its simple chemistry, You cant defy that fact. Its NOT an opinion, its natural science.

You are not showing any reason why NOT to do it.

TM Balling as developed by Hans Werner Balling is without argument the correct way to keep up with minerals of you tank. If you feel using a cut down method gains you some benefit over this than go for it. But for those that do believe in doing it properly the CORRECT system is available

I cant argue with someone that feels taking short cuts is the right way ;)

Bottom line until you try it you wont know. You can argue as a non user with every corner but the fact still remains, YOU DONT KNOW. :)

You also cant argue Hans Werner, if it had no requirement it would not be the biggest selling system in Europe and now catching on fast in the USA. It just took education to get the reasons for doing it right across.

You should have joined the webinar I think your eyes would have been very pleasantly opened. I know more than one that joined the series as against i as you and now are using it.

You are right, Im not showing any reason NOT to do it. I never stated any and wasnt trying to make a case for that at all. If anything there would be reasons to do it. Im just not sure that it makes enough or any difference.

The only reason I chose to speak up was because of your language and the way you made it seem like you are doing it wrong if you dont do it and that you wont get good results. My experience goes to the contrary of this.

You like metaphors so here is one. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Aqua is in the business of selling products. He has made a great sales pitch on why to buy the product he is selling. It's our job to research his pitch against the known facts. Pure and simple. I personally have had great success with 2-part. Would I have better success with Ballling? Maybe, but at this time, it's not worth the added cost.

But there is only one way of doing it right, proven science ;)

Ok lets break this down

your corals remove the carbonate and calcium from the 2 part leaving you with "sodium chloride"

so now you have extra sodium chloride in you system an imbalance which cant be balanced by water changes as shown before.

You can keep doing your 2 part nobody is saying you cant but to address the chemical imbalance you need to add the NACL, not any NACL as that does not achieve much but NACL that has all the 70 trace elements.

So keep doing your 2 part, just think about adding Part C to the mix to create the right balance.

I am quite sure that would be very advantageous.

Part C is also not 3 part as sold which adds magnesium only! Part C in the TM original system is everything you find in sea salt but with the sodium chloride removed as you already have that in your system you are trying to balance.

So by adding TM NACL (part C) you create the balance.

Nobody says you have to buy the whole of A and B if you really are so against it, use your own, its the part C that matters

I appreciate the post, thanks :)

Think about adding just Part C to your system then thats all you have to do. There is nothing different in TM A and B which is sodium and calcium other than being lab grade pure and certified. People opt to use the whole TM system as they feel more secure knowing it is proven and tested pure. But if thats not a concern then go with TM part C only and add the third stage to your system.

statements like this is what starts these arguments. . I wish that this hobby was as black and white as this statement .. Then everyone would have beautiful tanks and we would all be running them exactly the same..

But there is more then one way to skin a cat . and more then one way to have healthy beautiful corals .
I mean the amount of amazing tanks running driveway deicer , baking soda .. And forbid me for saying .. cheapo IO salt I have seen is enough proof for me.

Maybe I to am just tired of the way this product is being marketed. If i have to read another Hans-warner balling is the only right way thread again I may just have to close my account ...

Does a calcium reactor then also not cause an imbalance ? surely there is not all 70 trace elements in that media ..

If one was to only use part c, how would you measure or test for dose amounts?

furthermore .
Is there any studies done to show whether or not the imbalance actually has any ill effects on coral ? sure , even if the chemical science behind it shows how an imbalance can happen on paper .. Does it really even matter to the coral ?
somehow i doubt it

#1 nobody asks anyone to read a thread thats your choice :lol:

#2 A calcium reactor do not do anything in a balanced way, you have zero control of anything other than effluent output, this is why balling has become so dominant now.

Yes, this was explained in the webinar and also Lou from Tropic marin can give you the details give him a call 413.367.0101 (ask for Lou) quite a few canreefers have he is happy to talk and will happily share with you even more science than I would admit to know.

Thats another thing with this product the guys that make it are happy to talk to anyone directly.

this thread takes an interesting turn in the chemistry forum on RC for anyone who is interested in hearing both sides.

I didn't want to post the link , I actually find all this interesting and I can see the arguments from both sides which makes it even more interesting :)

Yes this is true but 2 part give nothing to balance the system with. and thats the whole point that keeps being missed

good point ;) I dont get dragged into arguments over there, my personal feeling its just peddling a belief not a science.

again simple to answer - two part leaves an imbalance nothing to adhere the free sodium chloride to. 2 part cannot balance the system.

EXACTLY! Thats why you use Part C so you know what is being added you need and is balanced to what you need.

The "how its made" bit scares me the most with 2 part and comes back to the reason why TM is trusted, you know what you use in effect makes up natural sea water minus the salt. No concerns or guess work, this statement alone shoots two part slap center in the foot.

again exactly right with two part, where as true balling the rise is not out of balance and easily adjusted by water changes, where as the rise in salinity in 2 part leaves an out of balance system,

Nobody is stating true balling does not raise salinity of course it does, however it raises it no different to adding new "REEF" salt to your tank. where as 2 part raises it by only adding the sodium chloride to your system, or as stated above some unknown amount of missing or apparent elements.

Most 2 parts use bicarb and calcium from sources never designed to go near a fish tank, no way were these balanced with corals needs in mind.

Thats the difference.

2 and 3 part are not completely the wrong way to do it, thats not true, however they are just missing the final ingredient to do it in a way that stops any fall off in balanced trace elements.

I beg to differ! As far as I know (if what's written on the package is true), part B is Sodium Bicarbonate. :biggrin:

Sorry couldn't help myself :redface: I will just slowly move away now :razz:

LOL yes sorry bad typo ;) thanks for correcting that. My bad :redface: modified to save a reef central back lash ;)

:razz:

Now...new era marine grazer is not a questionable product right Michael? Then why can't I find it anywhere in Calgary!!!!!!!!! :cry:

Sorry to highjack :redface:

So to summerize before this all falls apart.

Hans werner balling developed a system that keeps your system in check by adding in balance all the required minerals to your system.

Just as with 2 part and 3 part Han's system also raises salinity but unlike 2-3 part it is raising it in balance meaning the remaining sodium chloride left behind that the corals do not consume is balanced with the part C + trace elements.

The left over sodium chloride in the balling system plus part C with the trace elements = natural sea water

The left over sodium chloride in 2-3 part does not, of if you wish to believe it comes with some trace elements, then more scary its adding things you have no clue of what or what amount.

???? everyone should have it, I know stores this time of year cut back on perishable dry goods as sales are typically lower, but we just shipped a large amount to wais. he will have it mid next week (due to canada day)

also concepts are doing an order get dave to replenish if out.

Pisces pets has it also

lol

Just want too clarify another point also when I talk about NACL I am talking about NACL FREE salt.

Of course NACL is salt ;)

Part C is NACL "FREE"

You got me going back checking my typos now before the RC crew go picking up on them! :redface::lol:

Part C is everything you find in reef salt minus the salt, NACL FREE PART C are your balancing elements that is added to your system which binds to the free swimming sodium chloride making balanced "reef salt" in effect

hope it wasnt out of place but i was just interested to see what the argument is from the other side of things , as hobbyist we all have what we think works and i know that TM is a trusted name in the game but as someone who uses randys recipe i wanted to see his thoughts on this thread were.

i would like to see claude, hans and randy having a coffee one day and be sitting at the table behind spying in lol

another important point that was highlighted (and this is very valid question)

how do we know how many trace elements our tanks need? every tank is different

the question is probably the most important.

the answer also is important - WE DONT KNOW! thats why the original balling system ONLY adds what you find in reef salt, so no different than doing a water change.

where as 2 part 3 part leaves out a huge chunk of that process round abouts we go "imbalance"

No not at all but you wont get much love from them in regards to a balanced argument.

I will try and sit on the fence as I have said you dont need to stop using the 2 elements you already are, if you are happy with the brand you use carry on. The difference is the need for balancing the left over sodium chloride. There seems to be this long standing in ground in granite that it does not matter, and to be honest nobody has done many published studies in its effects. The science is there the chemistry is there, hans goes into a lot more detail in regards to the effects having free floating sodium chloride has on both growth and colour of corals, (something to do with stopping further absorption of chloride and carbonates as they have nothing left to bind to) What marine biology and marine chemistry tells us is you have a greater fighting chance of success if you follow what nature requires. Cutting corners I just cant believe in when there is no real point in doing so.

So far the arguments on RC have not impressed me or given any real assurance why 2 part is cool. Even stating that they add an unkown quantity of trace elements should be a big red flag.

But I am not going to get drawn into the gurus that host the chemistry forum on RC, its never a wise battle, however I will happily put facts here that I have learned from both Tropic marin and Hans directly.

TM Hans, RF and Claude have got together I believe many times at conferences.

I have a mass of respect for RHF actually, his knowledge is amazing, I just cant agree with the 2-3 part concept thats all, its missing chunks of marine chemistry as Hans showed many years ago now that spawned all the off shoots such as two part. My personal thoughts are those off shoots came from the desire for DIY but had no access to the balanced NACL free trace elements, so it was simply omitted and the became popular and the science got left behind.

TM took many years in commercializing Hans system and now the inventor is playing catch up and fighting against the spawn of his own system. People do forget where 2 part came from ;)

I just read on the RC reply thread that the assumption is 2 part "can have" the same elements that is in true balling.

This is where 2 part/ 3 part fall apart as there is no assurance to what you are dosing, there is "an assumption" its also a balanced system, BUT there is nobody to stand behind the assumed elements.

Anyway I think this could go epic if I dont close this so i will close with my personal thoughts which kind of already state what i said before.

This is my belief of history I write this for fun and just to put some light hearted thought into the whole debate.

Hans developed a marine chemist way of adding supplements in a balanced way

The desire for DIY took hold and the only two elements freely available were calcium and sodium bicarb.

NACL free with the trace elements Hans-Werner originally developed was forgotten as its not available in DIY format.

DIY became popular as its cheap, nobody for years questioned this too loudly.

Hans-Werner probably through frustration decided to commercialize his scientific system and is now fighting against the spawn of his orginal system which has been cut back to the bare bones employing often ungraded salt and unknown quantities iif any of minerals.

I will leave you the educated hobbyist to decide which system them feel is best for them. :)

My wife also wants to see my tonight not stuck to the PC. if you have any questions either email or call me you know I am always available to everyone ;)

Thank you to everyone for listening, please make your own thoughts as what is best for you.

I didnt watch the video but how do you get a math equation that equals after one week the system is imbalanced and 20 percent water changes could not fix it, what about 30,40,90 there would be an amount for each system that would balance would there not be? Im not against it i also would rather dose than do a 90 percent water change Ew but without testing its all guessing no ?