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gregzz4 05-30-2014 05:06 AM
Trying to raise Nitrates
 
I know, it seems kinda weird to most of you, but I want to raise mine some

I'm trying to create a happier environment for my SPS and have read that PO4 and NO3 need to be balanced
Currently I have 0.03 PO4 and undetectable NO3

I've cut my lighting some, from 21 to 17 hours/day total bulb on-time
This has had a good effect, but not enough
I've doubled my fish food; 15 wrasses etc now get 3 large pinches of pellets for lunch and 2 x 1/2" cubes of frozen for dinner. Plus they get flakes and Nori throughout the week - between their feedings when I'm home and remember. This is a HUGE amount of food for the tank, yet I am not seeing any numbers rising

I'm currently considering some more fish. Not only to raise the bio-load, but 'cause we want some other critters

In the meantime, can any of you help me 'raise' my Nitrates so my levels are more balanced, thus making my SPS happier ?

Thanks all :smile:

reefwars 05-30-2014 05:09 AM
Dose amino acids is prob the easiest and beneficial , what keeps your nitrates so low?

Aquattro 05-30-2014 05:10 AM
I've never heard that theory. I keep mine undetectable and PO4 as close to 0 as I can. No real problem with SPS.

But maybe put skimmer on a timer and run it half time. I also recently read a thread where a guy was adding a nitrate salt (NaNO3??) to his tank. Remove some rock?

Slyguy00 05-30-2014 05:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefwars (Post 899083)
Dose amino acids is prob the easiest and beneficial , what keeps your nitrates so low?
+1

gregzz4 05-30-2014 05:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefwars (Post 899083)
Dose amino acids is prob the easiest and beneficial , what keeps your nitrates so low?
Amino Acids huh ... I add some to the frozen already, but guess it's not enough
If I knew why I could correct what keeps it so low :wink:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquattro (Post 899084)
I've never heard that theory. I keep mine undetectable and PO4 as close to 0 as I can. No real problem with SPS.

But maybe put skimmer on a timer and run it half time. I also recently read a thread where a guy was adding a nitrate salt (NaNO3??) to his tank. Remove some rock?
My skimmer doesn't really pull much per week - a 7" cup gives me less than 1" of wet NOG/week
I have removed rock already before X-mas and am down to less than 1lb/G - probably closer to .75lb/G

gregzz4 05-30-2014 05:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquattro (Post 899084)
I've never heard that theory
I wanted to touch on this separately, even though I've already stated it

I've read that a 'perfect balance' is about 0.03 PO4 and 5.0 NO3

Maybe this is a magical # that I'll never achieve, but it's supposed to be a happy level for SPS
Apparently is has something to do with the need for some PO4 and NO3 during uptake ... ?
No NO3 and there's no balance ... I don't know as I forget where I read it

Guess I'll have to find the article and post it ... time is the enemy

reefwars 05-30-2014 06:10 AM
You can dose potassium nitrates as well but I have no experience with that.

Aquattro 05-30-2014 06:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefwars (Post 899099)
You can dose potassium nitrates as well but I have no experience with that.
That was the one I read about on RC the other night.

reefwars 05-30-2014 12:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquattro (Post 899101)
That was the one I read about on RC the other night.
I know people dose either nitrates or phosphates to get that balance between n and p but I'm not sure if Sps has a sweet spot for nutrients I would think any two coral will react different. Now if you can't drop po4 because nitrates are two low

Aquattro 05-30-2014 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefwars (Post 899106)
I know people dose either nitrates or phosphates to get that balance between n and p but I'm not sure if Sps has a sweet spot for nutrients I would think any two coral will react different. Now if you can't drop po4 because nitrates are two low
For me, I always want to see 0 for both, so I'm not sure I would add any back in. You're always going to have a bit of both in any system, but a reading of 0 on a test kit simply states that the system is absorbing it (corals, sandbed, etc)

Having undetectable levels of both, and the state of my SPS doesn't inspire me to add anything back in. If Greg isn't happy with his coral, I might be looking at other areas first.

reefwars 05-30-2014 01:17 PM
I agree but a zero reading doesn't say much especially on low grade kits. I know corals like bacteria use more nitrogen than phosphorus whether or not there's a perfect number I font think there is but they do need some as their basic needs.

I wouldn't be adding nitrates unless I am carbon dosing and even then it would have to be severe.

Not sure overfeeding will do much besides add more phosphates, upping the bioload will help but if carbon dosing then it's only temp until the denitrifying bacteria catch up.

A zero is kind of a neutral point , are we below zero or are we way below zero , I agree shooting for zero on hobbyists kits is ideal as there is sure to be n and p being used in conjunction to what's being read.

If colors are the issue or even growth then I too would look at other things mainly lighting , totm on RC right now only measures three parameters alk,salinity and phos and his phos is 0.21 so I don't think having it really low is a must as he obviously has no issues with growth colonies are huge and colors are amazing, 400w radiums baby lol

Greg what would make You think your nitrate deprived or do you think that?

straightrazorguy 05-30-2014 01:24 PM
Pee in the sump!:lol:

But seriously, I'm nitrate limited too. I run biopellets (carbon source), I have high phosphates, and undetectable nitrates. From my reading, I take it I need to up my nitrates in order to lower my phosphates.

Sorry I don't have a solution, but I'll tag along....

reefwars 05-30-2014 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by straightrazorguy (Post 899109)
Pee in the sump!:lol:

But seriously, I'm nitrate limited too. I run biopellets (carbon source), I have high phosphates, and undetectable nitrates. From my reading, I take it I need to up my nitrates in order to lower my phosphates.

Sorry I don't have a solution, but I'll tag along....


Like all forms of carbon dosing Your pellets remove more nitrates than phosphates so running either more amounts of gfo at a time or less amounts more often would be better than raising your nitrates. You can also remove some pellets if you think it's really low. I believe it's about 16:1 for the ratio . Again over feed will add more po4 than nitrates.

I'm currently removing the biopellets and replacing with vinegar more control and all around healthier than ethanol or sugars

reefwars 05-30-2014 01:40 PM
There's more to Colors and growth than n and p , lighting and flow are also crucial;)

reefwars 05-30-2014 01:46 PM
There's a thread on RC called dosing nitrates in the chemistry forum it's a good read and prob the one brads talking about I'd link it but I'm out and a about town atm but some good info on why one would dose them.and what to dose. Again adding nitrates directly is a bit touchy of a subject and seems to be more beneficial ways of doing it.

reefermadness 05-30-2014 01:58 PM
I dont think adding NO3 will solve any problems with SPS. JMO.

Reef Pilot 05-30-2014 02:00 PM
Yeah, sure can't figure why you would want to raise your nitrates... I spent about a year getting mine down from a high of 100 ppm to zero with bio pellets. They have been zero for about 2 years now. But just a couple of weeks ago, I removed my bio pellet reactor since it wasn't consuming many bio pellets anymore. However, just noticed now that my nitrates are no longer zero. They just barely register some colour now, so still less than 5, but not zero anymore. I was surprised actually, and will definitely keep a close watch with my testing. If they continue to rise, will install the bio pellet reactor again.

My phosphates are running around .04 - .08 lately, too high IMO. I had them down to zero last year, too, and had my best SPS growth and colour then,.. and no algae. I think P04 actually has the biggest effect on SPS growth. Some SPS (birdsnest, valida, montis, etc) of course grow just fine with higher nutrients. But my deep water smoothies definitely like the low P04.

reefwars 05-30-2014 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefermadness (Post 899115)
I dont think adding NO3 will solve any problems with SPS. JMO.
I'm with you I don't think the impact higher nitrates will have will be huge or beneficial to Sps longterm.

Aquattro 05-30-2014 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefwars (Post 899118)
I'm with you I don't think the impact higher nitrates will have will be huge or beneficial to Sps longterm.
Agreed.

reefermadness 05-30-2014 02:41 PM
SO what is the problem with the SPS. You could probably get some good advice here.

Definitely 5ppm NO3 is not needed. I dont think it would hurt but I have had great SPS growth and colour with unregistered NO3 and PO4.

Personally I think that when people see a positive reaction to increasing NO3 or PO4 it's actually a postivie reaction to something higher up on the nutrient/food chain. Ie. feeding more.

My philosophy is high import (larger bioload, larger amount of quality food) and high export (quality filtration). Bascially allowing there to be a constant influx of food yet with the filtration ablity to keep the broken down by products (disolved NO3 and PO4) to a minimum.

reefwars 05-30-2014 03:18 PM
stole this from RC:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmz (Post 21610696)



It's certainly seems counter intuitive to dose nitrate or another nitrogen source but it may make sense.

The redfeild ratio is rather useless as a guide other than to offer perspective on the general en masse proportions of carbon(C)106:N) 16: 1 P in ocean plankton. Organisms may approximate those levels but some including some bacteria vary significantly . Even if food put in the tank is close to those proportions, the activity in the tank may not use them in those proportions. All in all, trying to use the redfield ratio to obtain a generalized optimal N to P ratio seems convoluted. Using tank levels of N and P vs natural seawater levels seems smarter and more direct.

To clarify the idea as to why dosing N might be necessary, a brief look at the three major nutrients coming in and going out of the bio available mix in the tank may be helpful

Organic carbon coming in for the most part with foods can be used for energy or sunk in refractory( non bio available) organics like humic and fulvic acids ;some may also be contributed by photosynthesis. So, the amount coming into the tank is not really the bio available amount in the tank.
In many tanks it seems there is a shortfall as N and P levels climb. If there was enough organic C, the bacteria would use up the N and P too and tank levels would approximate nsw levels ( PO4 ca .005ppm and NO3ca. 0.2ppm) more often than they do. This imbalance is the basis for organic carbon dosing( vinegar, vodka, pellets, sugar, etc)
Unfortunately, hobby level measurement of organic carbon is not possible. Even high level analyses with $ 50 K analyzers don't really tell you what organics are present and whether they are bio available. So, we use No3 and PO4 as sort of a surrogate measure for nutrients, often ignoring organic carbon.

The proportion of N in and N out varies vis a vie the proportion of P in and P out too. The bacteria , consume C,N and P for food( ie, they assimilate them) and in turn are exported primarily by skimming . Even if we assume they have a perfect 116C to16Nto1 P biomass and the food into the tank also has these exact proportions,more N will be exported than P.
Anaerobic activity where the bacteria use NO3 for oxygen when free oxygen is used up exports extra N . NO3 is reduced to N as the oxygen is taken ;some of the N which binds to other N forming N2 which bubbles out into the atmosphere. How much of this occurs is variable from tank to tank but it does deplete nitrogen in addition to the nitrogen assimilated by the bacteria as biomass;there is no other such exit for P .
This is why many use gfo or other adsorbents and or precipitants for PO4 along with organic carbon dosing.

Sometimes, N levels at 0 may induce some coral paleness, perhaps from an N deficiency for the zooxanthelae or the coral itself. Some think adding extra N via sodium nitrate or calcium nitrate will remedy that and also help the bacteria to reduce more P. Very plausible positions,imo. Some ,including me prefer to add extra N via aspartic acid and amino acid which also adds some organic carbon.


Reefer Rob 05-30-2014 06:08 PM
I think once a well set up tank is established our test kits for N and P will read zero anyway, so it is almost a waste of time to even use them. I never test for nitrate (after about 6 months) and test phosphate maybe every 2 or 3 months just to be sure.

Chasing magical numbers will only get you into trouble. Watch your corals and respond to their needs. If they start become too light add amino acid to increase available nitrate. If everything looks good, leave it alone.

My 2c, your results may vary :wink:

Aquattro 05-30-2014 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rob (Post 899161)
Chasing magical numbers will only get you into trouble.
I think that sums it up well. I test NO3/PO4 maybe once a year. Test Ca 2 or 3 times. Check alk when my yellow monti turns grey. LEave it alone, watch the corals and change your water. Easy peasy.

e46er 05-30-2014 06:45 PM
I have pounds and pounds of KNO3 from my planted tank days I could give you some if you make the drive out to maple ridge

Werbo 05-30-2014 07:08 PM
Forget magical numbers. Especially with our hobby grade test kits.

The UNLS theory is that bacteria need some nitrogen to lower phosphate to zero. So nitrate is a limiting factor to lowering phosphate to zero in bacteria systems. This is why many biopellet users also employ GFO to get PO4 to ZERO. Simply put once nitrate levels reach 0 your PO4 will not come any lower if you are trying to reach UNLS by growing bacteria that is skimmed out.

Add amino acids (Zeovit or something similar) to feed corals and raise nitrates but it is also an added expense and time.

But as others have said judge by your corals response not magically numbers.

reefwars 05-30-2014 08:28 PM
a little reading as its gets complicated.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/cj/index.php

Aquattro 05-30-2014 08:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefwars (Post 899185)
a little reading as its gets complicated.
That's when I stop reading. Feed fish, change water, clean skimmer. Done.

gregzz4 05-31-2014 03:24 AM
Guess I'll try the amino acids then, and go back to my normal fish food routine

Thanks all

reefwars 05-31-2014 03:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzz4 (Post 899290)
Guess I'll try the amino acids then, and go back to my normal fish food routine

Thanks all
Greg what is it your trying to accomplish maybe we can help like Darryl said, a little input from some sound resources goes a long ways :)

gregzz4 05-31-2014 03:36 AM
I'm trying to get some life back in my SPS as some are too pale and growing slowly

I've cut my lighting down a bit and it's helping, but I'd like to improve them some more

reefwars 05-31-2014 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzz4 (Post 899293)
I'm trying to get some life back in my SPS as some are too pale and growing slowly

I've cut my lighting down a bit and it's helping, but I'd like to improve them some more
If you have the room for it adding fish is probably one of the best things you can do for sps , keep in mind wrasses are low bioload fish as in they don't graze and hunt foods that really done have a lot of waste.

At 75g you could still do a few fish m sure.

Do the ammo acids but be be fair warned they are strong stuff when dosed directly to the water column .

If your only getting an inch of skimmate a week and it's a wet skim then there's an issue with your skimmer , obviously it's not impacting your nitrates but still none the less you should be getting more than that.

I'm assume your using a good nitrate test kit and have verified it's accurate?

For what it's worth I know your phos is 0.04 but gfo has been linked to pale sps colors , it's not a guarantee but lots of sps guys on RCblame the gfo for the pale colors. Even randy says it can make sps pale in colors.

Cheers buddy

Denny

Reefer Rob 05-31-2014 04:46 AM
I'm somewhat in the same boat as you. My tank is at 4 1/2 months, and nutrients bottomed out a couple of weeks ago. Some of the corals lightened quite a bit... but some are lovin' it. The flower pedal monti in the bottom of the tank went a real pale yellow. I've dial back the light a few times, and dosed AA, and everything starting to get color back slowly.

It would be nice to get some more fish, but I have a wr******* Sixline that would likely kill anything that's not twice it's size.

reefwars 05-31-2014 04:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rob (Post 899351)
I'm somewhat in the same boat as you. My tank is at 4 1/2 months, and nutrients bottomed out a couple of weeks ago. Some of the corals lightened quite a bit... but some are lovin' it. The flower pedal monti in the bottom of the tank went a real pale yellow. I've dial back the light a few times, and dosed AA, and everything starting to get color back slowly.

It would be nice to get some more fish, but I have a wr******* Sixline that would likely kill anything that's not twice it's size.
I had me one of those two and I tell anyone who asks a six line can be brutal once it gets to a large size , its the most territorial fish I had to deal with killed lots of new comers and was relentless.


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