These LED's just aren't cutting it. Or - are they?
 

This will be long and drawn out, but I'll give you the skinny on pretty well what I'm looking at.

I've currently owned a Vertex Illumina 260 48" fixture over my tank for about 6 months now, and I haven't had the kind of growth or coral health from what would be expected to be a high performing fixture.

I have a nano tank beside it that I need to transfer any corals that are starting to bite the dust into to regain their health back, and they are over a simple Par38 bulb. I am going to attribute most of my problems to the lighting, and have considered switching back to T5's, but maybe as a last ditch effort - I'll try something different.

Here's what I'm looking at:

My tank is 60" long, 18" wide, and 16" tall.

The light is currently 9" from the top of the tank.

I have it set as 6W 54RB 52B for 6 hours at peak during the day.

My tank parameters:

0 Ammonia
0 No2
10-20 No3
Phos 0.5
8 Alk
8.1 PH
78 F
1350 Mg
450 Ca
Sg 1.025

I've got a wave maker (WP40) a MP40, with another 1200gph and two input flares at 800GPH. Lots of turn over.

Dose amino's, coral snow, Ca, Mg and trace elements.

Everything is fully automated, and I use RODI water, and I currently house a scooter dragonet, hippo tang, dotty back, fumanchu lionfish, lime wrasse, and a bicolor angel. I feed mysis and krill every other day with nori for the tang (after washing it clean) and spot feed with reef roids and phytoplankton.

Water changes every two weeks.

I don't think I can be any more thorough! Should I keep my lights peaked longer? Shorter? Should they be lower to the tank? Higher? Should they be less bright? More bright?

I'm at a loss! Anyone have any ideas?

Phosphate and nitrate are too high.

Nitrate should at at 0.
Phosphate at 0.02 or less.

ah come on - too easy. My nano tank has higher amounts of both. I run both gfo and carbon, with a fuge crammed full of chaeto and macro algae.

I was never that impressed with the Vertex fixture. When you say corals are declining, what do you mean? Are they bleaching or browning?

hammers bleached, but are coming back - slowly. No growth, nothing fully extending, zoas are melting over time.

sounds like too much light

Id agree. My corals have never been happier since switching to led

i have the sunbrite led and it is amazing i dont know my light is about 5 inches fron water top and everything is great i got a goni that is about the size of a basketball and polyps extend like 7 inches it loves my led

I'll try taking it down by 10 across the blues and see if it makes a difference!

In my experience with LED's (designed and built a full spectrum light for my BC29), if the corals bleach, then its too much light too fast. If they brown out, then probably want more light (or nitrates/phosphates are too high -- or a combo of the two factors).

vertex
 

i have no problems with my vertex .if you want you could borrow my par meter and check various levels of your tank

Where do you get par meters, and how much do they cost?

16" tall water column with 9" between water and light gives you 25" to the sand bed. I ran my lights 15" above my 24" tall tank with great success (39" above sand bed). If you raise the light up a bit, you can continue with your current brightness and get better coverage. I would likely start by raising it about 5".

If you decide to turn the lights down a bit, I would say cut all colors equally. Your LED lit tank will look about 30% duller than your T5 tank. Every time I look at my tank now (with T5) it's like a glowing kick in the face compared to what it was with LED.

I find the white spectrum is more responsible for high light bleaching but generally you would reduce the entire spectrum to acclimatize the corals to the new light. Most people experience coral bleaching when they make the switch due to running the fixture too high, the visible light is much different.

Was that at 100%? 39" seems really high.

Those had 80 degree frosted optics and were run at 80% on the white and 100% on the blue. Having no optics will make our heights different, but raising the fixture itself is a tool to improve coverage and lower the brightness at the same time. If your coverage is good, drop the brightness.

Is there an average height people run their lights above the sand bed? I just hung my maxspect razor yesterday and am not sure if I should keep it at the same height as the legs (like 8") or move it up more.

I did indeed turn them all down equally. Well, except the white since it's only at 6% anyways.

The lights are definitely duller than when I ran T5's.

I'll try turning the light down as opposed to moving the lights up, as it would illuminate the room a little too much. I'll give it two weeks - if nothing happens, I'll move them up as recommend.

I appreciate everyone's input! And monocus, I'll need to finally put you up on that offer for the PAR meter.

6% seems quite low! But then again every light is different. Do you have any pictures with white balance to portray the look of the tank? It might be a case of not enough light. Par meter at this point could go a long way!

Certainly couldn't hurt.

May be low, but the whites don't really make the colors pop as well as I like. I've got a lot of green coral. :lol:

As far as I know, whites don't do much for coral growth, hence why I've cut them out.

Believe it not white do some good to the corals since it has some red and green in the light. The blues it believe have some .

The reason why cheaper led fixtures do well is because they're not as intense or strong.

What is the max you run your white and blues.

If you turn blue up too high that can bleach coral aswell....

with tax they are$500-i got mine at apogee instruments

vertex
 

in the instructions on mounting the vertex,height above the water is 12".my depth of my tank is 36" so i run my white at 50%,blue at 75% and royal blue at 80%.i am going to start getting more modules(5-6 uv &3-4 rbg s)

I have my AI's 12" above the water line I ramp up to max. on blues & royal blues @ 80% with whites @ 60% starting 3 pm to 4:30 pm what I call mid day sun. Then ramp down from there. Had to play with them to get to a sunrise to sunset that gave me the best over all light for the corals, I probably could treak more but this seems to work for me so far. :biggrin:

I think there are so many misconceptions around LEDs even after several years of use and a more mainstream acceptance. You could happily grow corals under nothing but white LEDs. The coral would get enough light for photosynthesis and grow but the colours would not look pleasing to our eyes. You could also probably grow corals under nothing but blue LEDs but, again, the colour would likely not be what we want for our own enjoyment.

All the other colours of LEDs being added to fixtures; green, red, violet; are not necessary for growth or coral health but are useful to fine tune the "look" of the corals for us.

As for the topic of this thread, bleaching does indicate too much light. Blue is high in PAR in the spectrum that corals utilize so turning them down or raising your fixture will help. And you need to give the corals time to acclimate to the new light intensity. They won't change overnight.

IME, it's better to start LEDs higher or at lower power and have your corals start to brown a bit, then turn them up or lower them than it is to shock them with too much light and bleach and potentially kill them.

I have the same fixture - I will admit that the first 6weeks i was getting worried. bleaching a little browning and disappearing coriline algae.

I did raise them by 3inches - and added a longer dawn and evening. (blue only) but 6 hrs full light.

once I did my corals have been growing and colouring up like normal - love the fixture.

For anyone deciding to switch to great LEDs and don't want to spend a fortune then u should really consider getting these.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0092L...110_SY165_QL70

I think I only paid $129 for mine brand new I can't remember.
They are amazing. I didn't get any coral bleach or browning. All my corals love it and thriving. I only have 1 on my 75g 4feet tank with a large center brace in mid.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5feee19b.jpg

There is simply no comparison between those cheap chinese fixtures and a good quality fixture. Thermal management, drivers, the led emitters themselves will all be better in a better fixture. I would not count on reliability or efficiency from that Taotronics unit. I conducted a side by side test using Cree, Bridgelux, Seoul Semiconductor and cheap no name chinese 3w LEDs and there was a significant difference in output on the exact same driver.

If you want to save money the best approach is a DIY array using Cree emitters and Meanwell drivers.

I do agree but also disagree to some extend (ah LEDs!!!) :lol:

From my hours and hours of trying to find horror stories (and success...well to some extend) regarding LEDs over reefs, I tend to notice that generic fixtures have better review than high end fixtures. Now-a-days, most of the generic fixtures uses bridgelux (you can even ask them to put in cree) and meanwell drivers. So basically, its the same components to that of a higher end fixture apart from the quality control and expensive labor. But you are also paying 3 to 10 times less. Even if the generic fixture burns out within a year, you can still get a supply of 8 more fixtures to come close to the amount you would have spent initially on a radion (will the radion last for 8 years? With the power supply unit having a power factor of 0.54?!!?!). And when they use bridgelux emitters, they generally add more than they would have if they were to use cree. So, basically, the output of a 120w fixture gets almost closer to a 70w range cree fixture.

Over the course of various arguments and .. well ...stuffs..I came to conclude that:
1. For tanks less than 30": go with a generic fixture
2. For tanks more than 30" but less than....say 50": go with generic fixture (or higher end if you want the fancy modes other than just photons) or DIY. All gonna cost almost the same (if radion and mitras are taken out)
3. For tanks with more than 72": DIY would be the most ideal and cheapest option.

P.S. the above mentioned points are purely opinion and shouldn't be taken for granted :razz:

Here's my $.02 worth:

I have been using DIY LED units using 3 spectrums of whites (6500k, 10000k & 20000k) and 2 of blue (445nm & 454nm) for about 2 years now. Been very happy with the growth and colour of my corals. 28 emitters at 10w each for max. output of 280w. I usually run the light 8 hours 80-100% and 4 hours with just 120w blues. My LED specialist-friend built this version with more aluminum bars so it uses only passive heat-dissipation (no fans) and never gets more than slightly warm.

My pendant light over my 2' cube only has a DIY unit with 1 blue (454nm) & 2 white (6500k & 20000k) over it right now and will soon be replaced with another DIY "Kessil"-type light with 3b & 2w. Even with just 30w over a 2' cube, my rbtas & LPS (mostly duncans & Euphyllias) & zoas are all doing great. With 5x 10w emitters, I will simply dim both whites and blues instead of having them at 100% as they are now.

I have a 60w Eshine Cree Classic over my soon-to-be-torn-down RSM130. I have RBTAs (really bubbly) and various other corals & even a small Squamosa (which has more than doubled in size under the Eshine in the last year+).

My frag setup in my sump has a no-name 72w Cree light and the frags are growing great under this "cheap" LED light.

So in total, I have 2 Cree "cheap" lights, a 6' DIY and a DIY pendant. Corals, clams & anemones are all doing great.

One thing I noticed (and others here have noted) is that don't judge your "Light" visually. If you go from MH lights, your leds will seem dim. We tested with a PAR meter and these emitters were giving as good or better PAR readings than my 150w & 250w 14000k Phoenix and Aquaconnect halides.

So, yeah, better to go with low level LED and slowly ramp up than to go too bright, too fast and bleach/kill your corals with light shock.

Anthony

Just a note - blue light is not higher in PAR than red light. PAR is measured as umol photons 400-700 nm / m^2 / s. The PAR from 20 photons of blue light is equal to 20 photons of red light. I think you mean blue photons contain more energy than red photons, which is completely true. This is a bit of weakness when relying on PAR as your sole indication of light quality... it values all photons between 400-700 nm equally.

Also, re: growing photosynthetic organisms under monochromatic light - there are usually a lot of problems with that as blue light, red light, and far red light play many non-photosynthetic physiological roles. You are completely right about growing corals under white LEDs only as that is not monochromatic light. Growing them under only blue or only red probably is not a good idea for the health of the coral.

Also, the PAR meters used by hobbyists miss blue photons and tend to underestimate PAR in fixtures with a lot of blue light.

I think a lot of misconceptions about LED lighting are due to hobbyists having misconceptions about the nature of light and its measurement.

I doubt that those really cheap generic fixtures are using meanwell drivers or decent LEDs. You just can't get them at that price point. Some other slightly more expensive fixtures may be using Bridgelux LEDs (which are pretty good) and possibly Meanwell drivers. Some may even be using Cree emitters. But there are also different levels within Cree LEDs for example because LED manufacturers bin their LEDs according to output and colour so the higher bins will have higher output and colours closer to their ideal rating. Higher bins are more expensive. So cheaper fixtures are likely using lower bins of LEDs than the more expensive ones.

Can you get good results with less expensive fixtures? Absolutely. But you might not have longevity, maximal output if you need it for a deeper tank, or just general build quality. They have to cut some corners if they are keeping prices down, especially with the really cheap fixtures.

Jakegr: you are correct and I suppose I didn't explain myself fully or clearly. What I meant to say was that blue LEDs emit close to one of the chlorophyll absorbance peaks (as well as the absorbance peak of carotenoids which may or may not be important in corals) so they are providing lots of PAR to the corals even though they may look dim to our eye. So having them run at high output could be bleaching out your corals even though they may seem dim to you.

And it is well known that PAR meters underestimate the PAR at the blue end of the spectrum as most were designed to be used for measuring light for terrestrial applications rather than under water.

I'm happy with my "cheap" LEDs. Thaotronic dimmable led version seems to have tons of great review.cant say the same for there other fixtures. Boy it must feel dumb paying up to 10x as much as I did and get about same results =). Being on student budget these were the best choice for me. I have my blues at 60% and whites at 50%. Should I crank it to full blast?

If that is working well for your corals, then keep it at that level. You can slowly increase it if you want, but for me, I would treat this as a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" scenario.

Yep, I agree totally, I'm about to set up a 60 g cube tank and am going to use a 90 watt Pharos, which I guess is considered a "cheap Chinese knockoff" but let me tell you it's got a great review if you read up on them. I would say not to paint all overseas led's with the same brush! :noidea:

I just set up a 60 gal I am running a pharos over it, so far I like it. I am putting my first corals in today, so we will see how it does.

I'm not saying that the cheap fixtures don't work. Of course they will and people are happy with them for now. But talk to me after two years of using them when the LEDs are dimming or burning out because of cheaper drivers or poor thermal management. Or the drivers themselves are dying or the power supplies are dying, or worse, catching fire. I know that sounds alarmist but recently I've seen a different affordable chinese product which works well, is a fraction of the price of competing european products but has power supplies that sometimes fail in scary ways.

You do get what you pay for. If you want to buy something at a lower price but have to replace it every two years that's your choice. I had a similar discussion with someone recently that was the whole Apple vs. cheaper PC one. She said that she could buy a PC laptop with the same specs as an Apple one for much less. While that's true, you pay for quality components and craftmanship. I'm currently typing this on my 6 year old Macbook Pro. It still runs like a champ espite having been very well used and dropped numerous times (to the point it has several dents and the top bezel separating from the body) etc. I don't know too many people who can say the same about their budget PC laptops.

I completely get trying to do things on a budget and I also agree that some of the high end fixtures are probably overpriced for what they are. But you generally do get what you pay for and I'm pretty sure you will see far more people still using their Vertex Illumina 5 or 6 years from now than you will their Taotronics or Pharos etc.

I hardly think every Apple computer component is made in the good ol' USA. Perhaps the computers are 'assembled' in the US (more likely Mexico), but I hardly think the insides are all manufactured in North America. Don't know where you've been lately, but I reckon even Cree LEDs are made in Asia or somewhere else where labour costs are minimal. There's no way to compete these days even for the big players if they aren't taking advantage of low cost labour in developing countries.

I'm typing this on my Compaq notebook which I've had for almost 10 years now & it's still working fine. Did have issues, the power connector went wonky, but I had that replaced while the notebook was still under warranty. Other than that I've upgraded the RAM to keep it running reasonably quick with Windows XP.

Same story with LEDs really. You'll likely find that bridgelux, Phillips and other companies are having them made offshore. As far as fixture cost, seems to me I've seen some threads on high end Radion fixtures having problems with their cooling fans failing. That should definitely not happen with a fixture of that price point. Where's the quality control there and where do you suppose those fans come from? The fans on my DIY LED fixture are starting to give out as well, but I can replace them easily & I know they're cheap, so I'm prepared for that with a few spares. I don't have to send the fixture back to EcoTech or wait for them to ship me a new fan. And when my LEDs start fading away, I can easily replace them with the same cheapies or take advantage of the latest multichip technology/colour at an even lower price than what I paid for the originals. I don't need to replace the whole fixture. Admittedly, some of the pricier fixtures these days are modular, so you can change out the LEDs there as well.

Anyhow, to each his own. If money is no object, go for the most expensive fixture out there with all the bells & whistles. If you're on a budget, with a bit of research, you can easily get or build something that will be just as good at keeping your livestock healthy without breaking the bank.

Apple all the way. The best pc out there doesnt even compare to a macbook pro

+1 =). Screw apple! PC all the way!!!! Price doesn't always means something is far more superior. Majority of the time what ur paying for is the brand. For example I've had bought HP laptop and computer which both lasted no more than 1 yr then decided to get a custom built one for a much much cheaper price and 10x better performance with no problems. As for LED fixture maybe mine won't last 10years or w.e how long the expensive ones last but I can buy a new one or replace parts very cheaply when it does break.