to further this, a good breader raises the puppies in there home and is dedicated to socilizing them. the only breaders that are in business and don't give just as much time if not more are the puppy mills and such.
People seam to thing breaders are business orentated, it is quite the opposit for good breaders they are dog people who spend thousands of bucks showing there dogs, researching and finding the perfect matches for there program and spend more time with there dogs than anyone normal person would. I will use the breaders of my dog for example.. they dont even advertise there puppies as they have a 2 year waiting list. I was very very lucky to get Kona when I did as they had both males in the little sold befor they were born and then one had to cancle out and I was just there at the right time as I didn't care weather I got a male of female as long as it was a golden. and they knew the issues with my last dog and that the family was devistated we had to take her back to the SPCA after 3 months of trying to retrain her. so they called the next person waiting for a male and asked if he minded waiting for another litter and boom we had a puppy. even though I knew the breaders they still came to our home and did a home check and talked to all of us to get a feeling of weather we would be a good match for one of there puppies, so if that isn't caring about there dogs and where they go... I don't know what is.

Steve

I agree. Although the difference, I suspect, is the long term goal of a specific breeding program. A breeder should also be responsible for all the pups for all the years they're around. They should be willing, and in fact demand that any dog that can't be kept is returned to them. It's a standard part of a well written contract. They should also gaurantee the pup from any genetic defects at any point in the dog's life. This means a refund or replacement pup. They should be ready and willing to help all owners for the next 15 years with anything to do with the pup. Idealy they're part of a breed club or organization, dedicated to improving the breed (as an argument against Steve's comment, a breed standard as set by the kennel club is not specifically a good thing).
I have border collies, and as a breed, they should only be bred after proving themselves on stock. This is either done via full time farm work, or placing high in at least regional open class trials. Then they are evaluated for temperment, physcal characteristics, etc, before a breeding match is made. This type of commitment and ability comes from years of experience, and takes dedication to a close to full time activity. Breeding should be left to the pros.
If someone wants to become a respected responsible breeder, then they should work under the mentorship of someone who is already there.
Breeding your pet dog, simply because you can, is wrong on many levels.

I don't expect to change many minds, but people need to think a bit harder about creating life, and what will come of those lives for the next decade and a half. There are hundreds of thousands of discarded dogs in shelters all across north america, many of them a direct result of breedings just like this. and if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

actualy most good breaders start out under mentorship from the breader they got there dog from, so right from square one they are reasearching genetics and matching. and also are installed with the ethics of there breadings. also another thing to look for is are they a member of the CKC, if not don't buy from them. not every member of the CKC will be perfect but if they get caught straying from the ethical standard they are removed so a long time breader that is a member of the CKC is a pretty good bet.

Steve

I'm not gonna start with kennel clubs, but we're gonna have to disagree on this one :)
Oh, and everything else you said you copied from me. Get your own stuff :)

Just a quick stat, the Boston Terrier Rescue of Canada (only one of many) takes in about 70 dogs a year. This does ot count those that they have to turn away due to lack of resources. 11 of them may not get forever homes now. Just something to thik about....

Um the kennel clubs don't set the breed standard they just adopt it. the breed standard is set by the original creator of the breed when it is reconized as a breed.

the breed standard defines what the dog is intended to do and the body make up that optimizes it for its intended purpose. a well writen standard will say how the required feature enhances the ability of a dog. you can think that a standard isn't important but the people that feel that are the ones who have dogs that don't meat the standard. are they still nice dogs.. yup, great for pets and companions. heck I am not even sure if mine meats the standard yet, from what I can tell he does or is close but I won't know till he hits his full high and weight, and gets all his coat. do I intend on showing him.. nope, I bought him as a companion/pet so I could care less.

as for guarentees it is pretty hard to find a life time one.. usaly it is a year or two, but I have seen some lifetime ones.. I goess it would depend a lot on the breed also, we got a two year one.. basicly will pay for medical up to the purchase price of the dog or replace the dog if it comes to that.

Steve

ya, because I have a time machien and can go foreward in time read you post then come back and post it two seconds after you did :mrgreen:

there are theings about kennel clubs that are good and bad, the bad is that they make a lot of money for a non profit organization. also there are bad kennel clubs and good ones, take the CKC for eg.. there are two, canadian and contanental.. canadian = good, contanental = bad when it comes to ethics.

the canadian does provide a valuable service in regestration and such and a lot of resorse links but they do make money off sanctioned events.

Steve

Steve, some breed standards may be ok, I can't keep track of all that stuff, but there are many breeds (GSDs come to mind) that have been ruined by the show ring and kennel clubs.
Coming from a Border Collie background, the KC is pretty much the mortal enemy of our dogs. I'll email you an article offline that goes into all the gory details.
As for gaurantees, genetic abnormalities should be covered for life. In BCs, if both parents are clear for CEA, then the pups are clear, and there should be no problem gauranteeing that. If a breeder won't, I'd questin whether the testing was done at all.

This is getting ridiculous!!!! :mad2: The poor guy wasn't letting his dog roam free while in heat. He planned for a litter of puppies, and ended up with many! They are very cute. Good luck with them. :smile: More pictures please.

The ridiculous part is someone breeding as a part time activity, for reasons not yet determined in this thread. Seriously, post this kind of thing on a dog board, you'd get toasted. And the obvious amount of uninformed people replying dictates that the things being said get said. I hae nothing against Neal, I'm sure he means well and didn't let a monetary calculation decide for him, but hobbyist breeding is a major contributor to the over population of dogs in our country.
I'm not trying to fight with anyone, or even condemn anyone, I'm just representing this scenario from the dog's perspective. There are already too many dogs, and adding to that number for anything but the right reasons (contributing postively to the breed as a whole) should be discouraged. And even if Neal sets out to be a responsible breeder, it's a huge task to track all the pups for their entire lifetime. Which you need to do, to determine any issues that have arisen from the breeding. I can give countless examples of well meaning (and not so well meaning) breeders falling down in their responsibilities. And in the end, the only one that suffers is the dog. And ultimately, this should be about the dogs, not about someone selling pups, or someone wanting a cute little puppy. It's about a living being not getting a life they deserve due to lack of foresight into their futures. So for the dog's sakes, I just ask that everyone gives a little more thought to how and where puppies end up.