Once upon a time, people used to think T5s are just for supplements. And now LED took over that title. Its just part of the evolution :) Don't worry Michael, LED is the future. Its just that, the word "future" represents a very broad spectrum (no pun intended) :smile:

As for growth, I've actually seen more growth with the T5 over the last month, with old bulbs. We'll see what the next month brings with the new fixture/bulbs. I do agree tho, that adding some supplemental LED is desirable.

Hold up guys! I need to pop another bag into the nuker..

... okay, continue. :pop2:

exactly, so it up to the consumer to decide if the technology is there for them now, if not wait, but as I said before if you spend the money on the right LED fixture the technology is already there. But I fear as i said in my RC post (well received I might add,,yeah! or no sorry phewww) people are dumping out LED in many cases because they invested in fixtures that do not employ or do not have the ability to work correctly.

couple of reasons

disco ball - great for a bit of Bony M in the living room on a Saturday night but for growing corals thats a big no no, corals need as someone said above "uniformed spectrum" how on earth do you get that with a glitter ball dancing off the sand bed?

Its all about convergence, getting the LED's to become one, and this is where an LED is made or broken, Mitras spent 2 years getting this right, I know ecotech have their own concepts also. Many others seem to use off the shelf lenses not specifically made for aquariums.

Hybrid T5 - yep I cant knock it, stable OLD technology with some LED's added to try and corner both camps, however even ATi do not see a long term future in the fixture after talking at Macna even they admit LED is the future, its just that not everyone has the money to invest in the fixtures that do perform. So my advise is, dont then, you are wasting your money, either save a little monger and buy the technology that is available, or stick with the trusted methods of T5 or MH.

Nobody that I am aware of has ever said LED is better than either. Well ok I will, (oh crap!) with the right fixture it is better because of the infinite control and the lack of bulb changing, in regards to coral growth and health, no its not "better", but I believe the right fixtures certainly match MH and T5 on that level.

Sad part is Michael is that since led have come out it's getting to be harder to find old tech in the new section of the store. With manufactures dropping mh the consumers become forced to buy into new tech to which they may not be able to afford. Hence some people buying cheaper units.

I 100% agree with you on this. And to be honest i am not sure of the answer, dealers will stock what is in demand, if they don't the next store will.

Demanded maybe so. But I would think its what's made available to a store front.
My comment earlier about suppliers pushing what they sell also shows this as your not going to push a product you don't offer. As any store would loose sales. That's the way it is.
We all know that earlier tech has done the job. But you know longer hear of great halide tanks other than Kien.
I'm sure if all three lighting styles were pushed buy stores then manufactures may keep distributing them. At least until three lighting types were par on price. And people could afford to take the next step to new tech

I had a time finding halide equip new and I'm sure its a matter of time before bulbs are phased out

well to add some fun into this thread I thought i would start a "can a mitras grow a sorry looking SPS test"

well here are my test subjects both came from the bottom of a friend of mines old tank, he was not even aware the bit of life left in the stag horn even had polyps let alone colour.

Just for fun lets see what the Mitras can do with these two in the next month.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...31163842_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...30668607_n.jpg

Oh and here is the test bed ;) (not the best shot I might add)

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/...68103152_n.jpg

It boggles my mind that in this day and age, that anyone would even be asking this question. We've seen over and over again how LEDs can grow and colour SPS. This has been demonstrated over and over and over and over again. SPOILER ALERT: the answer is yes.

Yes, some people with current LED fixtures are ditching them, but not so much because their LED couldn't grow SPS. They are ditching them because they simply prefer the look of a different lighting technology. This doesn't mean that LEDs suck or that LEDs don't work. They simply did not prefer that LED light. It's as simple as that!

To me this is the equivalent of trying to convince someone that they need a Ferrari. Can a Ferrari get you to the grocery store and back? Yes it can. Does everyone need a Ferrari to take them to the grocery store and back? No. Should everyone WANT a Ferrari just because it's the hottest looking piece of tailpipe on the road? No ! But we all know that a Ferrari can in fact take you to the grocery store. Just because a bunch of people prefer to get to the grocery store by other means does not mean that the Ferrari is a piece of junk. Do we really need to conduct more polls and tests to see if a Ferrari can get you to the grocery store?! :rolleyes:

</soapbox>
</rant>

I disagree, reading through this thread and the very similar one on RC there are more than a few posting they are ditching LED because they do not believe they can grow corals or produce colour.

If the argument is not that, then why would you ditch LED and go back to T5 or MH? I think im losing the plot here in all this to be honest :silly:

I don't know what rock those people are living under, because clearly "those people" did not see our current TANK OF THE MONTH, or Dez's Tank, or Asylumdown's awesome Radion tank, or the past RC Tank of the Month. I could go on and on.. Seriously, there are examples of nice LED tanks EVERYWHERE.

I already answered this. The argument (if we can call it that), is simply that some people do not prefer how it looks to them. This is all very subjective which means you can't, and shouldn't be trying to tell someone what they should and should not like. I don't like Ferraris. This doesn't mean that they are crap or that they don't work. If someone were to give me a Ferarri I wouldn't want it! I would give it back or donate it to charity. This doesn't mean the Ferrari is crap! It simply means I do not prefer it. In fact, if someone were to give me 3 free Mitras today, I would not install them. This DOES NOT mean that they are crap or that they don't work! This just means that I do not want to run them. Why can't someone not want something ??

And on that train of thought, it has been proven that some corals will appear different under the various light technologies. This again is yet another reason why people simply PREFER one technology over another. They might simply PREFER how corals appear under a particular technology.

I like the look of the water with the radion.but I love it under halide. Less shadowing. I could have solved that with another radion but on a 24" tank it's pointless
I didn't care for that much shimmer of the led
Growth rate for me...some pieces grew under led some not so much. But I will say growth has double under the halide.
As for color. I am seeing more color with the halide. Plain and simple. I have one piece that was green under the radion and now is blue violet with green and yellow undertones. So nice I had to name it ;)

I do miss the amount of blues I can add with led but its a factor I can live with or fix.

You know, I really don't understand this whole ditching LEDs discussion. As I mentioned earlier, I used to have T5s before I went to Radions, and can't imagine going back. No question, they are a lot cooler and cost less energy, incl less chiller running. And yet some here have argued otherwise!!! Don't know what they are smoking...

As for the looks, yes, T5s are nice, but I can adjust my LED colours to anything I want, and by time of day. I can make SPS glow, if I want...

I run mine on the Natural Mode which simulates the sun through the day, and my corals seem to really like it. SPS keeps growing like crazy and getting good colour out of everything. I tried playing with different colours, but I honestly don't like the "artificial" look. And I have seen some tanks like that, and each to their own, I guess.

IMO, I think a lot of non-LED users here are being very much misled. Maybe some LEDs are not as good, and maybe some people don't know how to use theirs properly with all the different settings and adjustments.

But my Radions (both Gen 1s and Gen 2s) have all worked flawlessly from day 1, and I couldn't be happier with them.

Ok so back to square one, the original question who else is ditching LED for other options

we have proved LED works if you employ the right fixture, we have proved T5 work we have proved MH work.

so what other options other than the above are people moving to? Am i missing some new technology?

In regards to the point people are dumping LED because they dont like the look, I find this impossible to understand as (again) providing you are using a worthy fixture if you dont like the look just change the spectrum, easier than you can with any T5 or MH.

So the argument is not growth not colour, not health ........Ok Im lost :redface:

excellent post :) well written.

The latter half of this thread make me want to unplug my tank and let it die...

I hear where you are coming from, I think the plot has been lost. Or I have simply lost the plot ;)

:bump:

I was able to grow huge colonies from frags with LED. But when you want the coverage and brightness, you need to spend big $$$. This is where the line was drawn for me.

Maybe LED's have too many options and not enough testing. You can easily tune yourself out of an acceptable range for your corals. I would invest in an LED again if there were limited presets with static height/coverage requirements. Don't over sell/rate your product and give the customer an educated recipe for optimal coral color and growth.

This is something that GHL have thought about doing. A cut down unit with known workable presets, bit like using different preset T5 tubes.

I think ultimately some people made the original switch to LED for the wrong reasons. Focused too much on the hype of something or the hope of saving money and in the end didn't make sure they bought the right fixture for their needs which may not even exist yet. Doing so will leave a pretty sour taste in your mouth, so moving forward with another expensive LED adventurer can be too much to swallow for some so switching back to something more familiar makes sense.

I have played with a lot of LED fixtures and have yet to find one that can replicate the evenly distributed light of a T5 fixture.

I don't understand why this is impossible to understand? Let me ask you this, what brand of jeans do you wear, and why do you wear that particular brand of jeans ? There are so many options, why did you pick that one ? I will bet money that we both wear different brands of jeans. Which one is better? NEITHER.

Of course everyone will have different tastes thats why consumerism is king, which kind of makes this whole debate pointless. everyone will have their own opinion.

So here is my opinion - For me my love of LED and I was one of the early adopters was the fact i did not have to change bulbs, I could change the spectrum and intensity at a drop of a hat and they gave off no heat so no need for bulky chiller.

Then came lamps with immense quality and functionality that MH and T5 simply could not provide in ONE package they either had one of the other.

My previous tanks had MH, I loved MH but it could not be dimmed, was costly in bulbs and I needed a chiller. LED's filled the void what MH could not offer.

I now run a lamp on my tank that both i and others that have seen them do believe replicate what MH gives but with brass nobs on ;)

This whole thread is about own perception and opinion, I dont think it will ever prove anything, however to the deepest respect to Aquattro I dont think he was trying to make a point or prove a point just a question that is now way removed from the original post?

God please please please close it now.

I love LEDs too. I have DIY units using 10w emitters in 3 white & 2 blue spectrums, as well as inexpensive Chinese units. I get good colour & growth with my LEDs, never worry about the electric bill or bulb expense or heat. Once I do my switch over to setup my 93g 30" cube, I will be lighting up 3 display & 1 frag tank (total volume 383g & total surface area 26 sq.ft.) using a total of 450w maximum and 370w normal setting.

At my max. I had 10 halides (3x250w DE & 7x 150w DE) generating a tonne of heat (at least I didn't have to turn on the heat in the house in the winter) and needing 10 new bulbs replaced each year. Every summer I had to go on reverse photoperiod, use fans over each tank, and leave windows and doors open late at night to capture some cooler night air. 10 bulbs at say $65 each+tax is about $700+. My electric bill would be through the roof if I still had all those tanks and all those MH (rated at 1800w but actually consumed well over 2000w/hr use).

These DIY units grow my Purple valida and Bonsai great, with deep purple colouration. Great for LPS & anemones, which is mostly what I'm into.

So I'm another LED convert (over 2 years now) who will be sticking with LEDs.

For me, I moved to LED to reduce moisture in the house, which it did very well. And they also kept about 95% of the color for over the year I used them. Pretty impressed with that. They also have dimming capabilities, which is pretty cool. Another plus! But, I would rather have 100% of the color, which T5 is giving me. T5 is also an unfamiliar technology to me, I've never used them. But so far I'm impressed. My chiller comes on as much with them as it did with LED. The light looks nicer, the corals look nicer. I do not have dimming. I have to change bulbs. Both are negligible at my point in the hobby. I do not for a second believe any other brand or model of LED would have been different. They just don't provide what I'm looking for. I may even start liking my T5 better than MH. I know, right?? :)

What? It's a great topic. Kind of what this site is about rather than a thread about "What is a corporation".

I bought my LEDs cause it was the newset and coolest and big hype at the time. Did'nt do as much research as I should have, but I was on a budget. I chose AIs and glad I did. I dont consider them a low end set of lights as many of you call them. There's alot of tweaking involved and trial and error to try and get that look from T5s and MHs and many have acheived it or are damn close. I'm happy and wont be getting out of the latest fad. The Hydras are IME a way better light than the Sols and Vega's

+1 for great thread!

~Tony

Yes the subject is very appropriate and I like reading about others experiences and opinions but its someones relentless push to have everyone conform to their way of thinking and opinion that has me a wee bit bent. I have LED and think they're fine.

And you'd be right. They are fine. Nothing wrong with them, even the "cheap" AIs :) They do a really nice job, have great features not available with any other technology and grow corals as advertised. And depending on the tank owned, there may be nothing better. I did like many aspects of mine, but in a mature SPS tank, where I've watched the progression from MH to LED to T5, they were not the best for my tank. Nothing wrong with that, I wished they were enough, because I lost a lot of money selling them -lol I loved the dimming and control of the color (although once set, it's done).
I see tones in my SPS color now that I didn't even have with MH, so the decision, for my tank, was to not use them. That may not apply to the majority of people running various styles of reefs

If you think I was referring to you believe me you couldn't be further from the truth. You have very little to loose with unfavourable posts on LED's. .... The other,not so much. :mrgreen:

I am pretty sure that no one is "relentlessly pushing". It has been mentioned a lot of time in this thread that in the end, its personal choice. From my perspective, I haven't complained anywhere in this thread about "growth" or "color". Infact, I didn't start commenting till Michael came forth with the "cost" issue. That's where I start. THE COST. I have also said LEDs has lots of bells and whistles that comes down to personal preference. I don't have problem with that. I don't have problem with growth/color because I have never used LED to judge those two parameters. But when someone comes down to tell me, "hey get a $1000 LED for the tank and you gonna save lot of electricity and money", that's where I have problem. Color/growth: these are upto Nick, Denny and Brad to comment on, they moved away from LED after using it. I hope that clears things up. :) Its all about proof. Electricity and cost are just numbers and nothing related to experience. BCHydro/Enmax won't come over to check whether you are using LEDs and charge you accordingly :lol:

To Michael: LEDs doesn't necessarily eliminate chiller like I have mentioned earlier with proof. And there you go :) I didn't make that up ;)

Since I am the only non-LED user over here, I would like to be pointed out where I mislead. Cost-benefit? Electricity savings? Well, that's the two part I talked about. There's obviously a cut-off region for those two to get inverted from their typical outcome (the numbers of years for cost-benefit would significantly decrease and electricity savings will be huge) but those are for HUGE tank sizes. Like a 8' or a 10' tank.

To Michael (again :P): I would love to get some numbers from you. Can you please give me the electricity consumption of your system (with LED and without chiller) for a month? Another number, that I am also hoping to get from you or you can collect it from someone with a similar system with a similar location, is the electricity consumption with T5/MH/both. I don't need the Watt (that's gonna be higher for MH anyways) but I need the KWh consumption for a month. This will not only help me (to prove me wrong or right) but will possibly be a good for you. :mrgreen: Will really appreciate if you can give me those two numbers :) Kill-a-watt meters are fine :)

No not you Mr. H.

This is another selling point. But again, for me, I don't give a damn about electricity costs. I run a giant box of water in my livingroom, that is an expensive undertaking :) If it costs 20 or 200/month, I don't care. I want the best SPS I can grow.

Whys that. I agree, its a great thread and another said what a reefing board should be about.

Have to agree Michael. Thats totally what I thought it was about, reading both here and RC.


Thats the only reason I,m looking at T-5 lighting. Why would one do that otherwise. A 6 bulb and bulbs is close to the sale price of the Mitras, so I cant agree with those saying cost is a factor. Not to mention the people switching to hydrids at twice the cost.

:lol:

:lol: That's a very practical answer. We put in corals worth thousands of $ and then we fight over who got to save couple 10s by investing $1000+. Gotta put an LED manufacturer in Dragon's Den :lol: Electricity is cheap! Go to Europe, its a completely different stories, they need electricity savings since its about 3 to 5 times higher than that of Canada.

If Michael gives me the numbers, that's gonna tell the true story of how much "savings" one is actually having. :)

Michael, sorry missed the part where you said "there are more than a few posting they are ditching LED because they do not believe they can grow corals or produce colour"

I agree this is crap. LED grow coral just fine, and produce beautiful colors. Anyone ditching because of that is perhaps doing other things wrong.

I'm ditching because I can get slightly better color from other technologies. Not that LED didn't do the job, just didn't do it well enough for my personal tastes and my tank. As I said, for many tanks, LED may be the best solution!

Problem is, numbers will be different for each tank. It depends on unit, number of units, power profile, dimming settings, etc. While running lights in full might be cheaper, having the sunset, sunrise and moonlights going might offset that savings. But again, who cares??

Yah. Hence I asked Michael since might be able to help using similar setups: one with halide, one with LED. No parameters, no nothing: I am not bothered about how the corals will grow and color. I just need the consumption.

Well, I don't care as well but it bothers me when saving is factored in and when I try to point out why that's not justified, I get the flames :lol: