GSP, I agree with what you're saying but it's up to everyone else to properly interpret any information given online. I can't be held responsible for any wrong interpretation regardless of my experience.

I agree that there should be limits on fish sizes brought in but unfortunately it's not that simple. LFS's know what fish to bring in and for the most part I believe they do there best to bring in what's reasonable. The problem is there are no standards for the actual size of a "small", "med" or "large" fish and it varies from supplier to supplier and you don't always have control to what exactly they ship to you. In a perfect world this would be different but as we all know this world isn't perfect but I for one am willing to except that.

I don't think Wes was personally attacking anyone, I think he's a good hobbyist and simply sticking up for the hobby in general and the people that make it all possible for us, our LFSs.

I still think if you post on an open forum you do have to be careful and be very specific :wink: I understand people have to make well informed decisions but in many cases when someone experienced from this board or any other says something, people do take it as well informed advice. Really not a big deal, I was just trying to make sure people don't start feeding freshwater fish to puffers.

As I said, I do not blame LFS at all. I agree its people who buy the fish that are more to blame and also collection laws. IMO there should be laws not to limit actual species (unless endangered or threatened) but to limit what size can be collected. Problem is, too many people want to buy large fish instead of having the patients to grow them.

I don't know...seems like very personal attacks from Wes. Or at least that he was taking things very personal. I just think he really could have gone about that whole last post in a much better way. Telling people they have to "draw a line" and decide how they feel about their dilemmas is ignorant at best. The fish for food analogy made me laugh...some people make a distinction between food and pets.

I did admit I contradicted myself on many matters. When you have mixed feelings about things, that does happen.

I am more mad at myself then the store since I depended on what he said in deciding to bring the fish home. But in his defense he has a business to run, and although I might think it is his responsibility to answers questions clearly, perhaps my expectations are too high. My choice to not go there anymore is because I feel I cannot trust his word or he does not have enough knowledge to help me out. Yes I can research, which I did do. If I don't trust a person I am dealing with, why would I do business with them again?

I am happy with the fish. He is strong and healthy, great colours, that is why I picked him. I do not blame him for doing what comes naturally he is a wild fish. I don't know how old he really is, I was told about a year or year and a half. I was told by a very experienced keeper of tangs that the large fish in the store whom is supposed to be the same age as my puffer, must be at least five years old. I have no knowledge of fish to know how you can even tell how old a wild fish really is. I go by the word of the LFS, as this is their business to know.

I am on the fence about things. However young fish do adapt much more easily. Any animal or human can adapt more easily to anything when they are young. I do not feel mature fish should be pulled from a reef. They survived for several years in nature and are entitled to breeding and carrying the circle of life. My big issues with capturing wild fish is the use of cyanide and gas to stun them and capture them. I don't think it is fair to do that and kill many other creatures in the process of capturing fish for the hobbyist. When I look at the big picture when people net them it can be compared to being hunted. It happens everyday to eat or be eaten. However, when they are poisoned and stunned that is crossing the line. When I think of that, then even the larger fish whom are netted would have been eaten by a predator and would be gone any ways. SO there I am contradicting myself again. I see it, and have seen it many times. I just feel it is wrong, and now I am giving myself reasons to justify it. Perhaps when I justify it I can accept what reef keepers are doing.

I guess I change my feelings due to being asked about them and I learn more about the issues I brought up in the first place. Because I am debating with you guys, it makes me open my mind on how things really are... does that makes sense?

So where do I draw the line?

I think it is awful to catch fish with chemicals. Make it a more level playing field and catch them by net. I wish people had some mercy and would leave the big fish in the ocean to reproduce and provide us with young fish that can adapt to captivity. They are more valuable in the oceans then they are in a display tank.

When people go into an LFS and ask questions, the seller should be honest, and/or knowledgeable about what we are purchasing. Some buyers don't always know all the questions to ask, but a seller should try to inform a buyer as much as possible prior to the purchase. Sellers should ask the buyer questions about their set ups to see if the buyer can provide a proper home. I know some people want what they want and are get it no matter what. However people that have an interest in the well being of their fish and tank mates should be regarded.

I think I do read into things too much because I have owned and rescued various animals all my life. I fostered exotic birds that were unwanted because they are too much work. The cockatoo self mutilated herself because nobody paid attention to her. When they hit breeding ago, they become unmanageable due to their desire for a mate and to breed. People think birds can be kept in a cage with little or no care and buy them. I rescued a rehomed a couple of rabbits since people think they can live in a filthy cage with no human contact. I rescued some goldfish from my gym since they were living in a cess pool and could not breath anymore. I rescued Rottweilers and a Pit Bull from horrible fates and they spent the rest of their lives with me.

Perhaps fish are not near to being the aforementioned animals, but because I saw what they went through, it makes me think really hard about ANY creature under my care. I understand I am reading into this all too much, but I have seen a lot of suffering from puppy mills, pet stores and impulse buying of pets people are not equipped to care for. They are just fish, right?

I will stop mentioning why I look into things and think way too much about the fish industry. I know I am comparing things that are not the same but cannot help it anyways. So yes, I am all over the place, but am glad I am addressing my questions and concerns, and being called out for why I think the way that I do.

YES I love the hobby, YES I love buying new livestock for my tank. I am no different then all of you. I don't know where the lines are drawn in this hobby so this is why I asked in the first place. Will I keep my fish? Of course I will. I learned a lot from him, and from the members of this forum.

with time you will be able to train them on squid shrimp mussels (seafood medley) is a great combination and ive even got mine eating pellets. but he's a monsterous lazy old fart now. i always enjoyed feeding mussels and crab legs helps keep the teeth short and the crunching sound is great

You are making me hungry... the fish gets mussels and crab legs while I go hungry. He has been eating garlic prawns instead of clownfish today, and I am getting jealous. They are MY prawns, but he needs them more then I do. I have Kraft dinner in the pantry. I cannot wait to get some crab legs it will be fun to listen to the crunching. I can bet that is messy, I actually can't imagine until I see it myself.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression you feel your puffer killing the clownfish was a learned behavior because it was captured at a larger size. You also think that this would have been less likely to happen if you had introduced a juvenile puffer.

Based on my experience with these fish I would say that is a faulty line of reasoning. They are curious and unpredictable regardless of age and this could have happened at any time. I've noticed little difference in behavior between juvi and older imports.

Yeah you're right almost everything was completely irrelevant...???

Again the story changes:
but that's cool I understand why your tired... it's hard to argue when you're not being rational or logical. Better luck next time.

But in the mean time I'm glad your done "playing" with your little toy... sounds like a throw away kinda attitude to me.... "if only we could fix that in the world"?

Belittling my skills with sarcasm only works if they're actually my skills...I never made the picture

Yeah your right my humble 10 gallon is basically emptying the ocean as we speak.

And who's going to stop me from buying these "captive fish" if there is none?? Again your statements are completely irrational.

Passing the buck... it's not your fault it's whoever provided the fish and I wouldn't have killed the guy if I didn't have a gun available to me.

You can blame me or your lfs for whatever you want. You have been, so why stop now.... Doesn't mean any of the blame is founded or true but you can blame whom ever you want.

Always do :D

Nope... I just get frustrated when people are irrational and have swing arguments.

The poster and this thread reminds me of a lady on the radio who "can not believe what Alberta has allowed the oil industry do to the environment!" All this she says as she flies over the oil sands in a plane that is fuel powered. The only reason she could even make such a statement, and the only reason she could see what she was seeing is b/c she was seeing it.

I just get really frustrated with people who are totally ridiculous. They talk and complain but in actuality the whole while they are only implicating themselves.

Sheez. This is a board for posting about our hobby, not an ethics board. Lighten up already.

That's kinda my whole point at the end of the day they're just fish that we are supposed to enjoy. You do what you can to give them a good home but we can't pretend that we feel soooo bad and still keep the fish and keep buying more or I think you're in the wrong hobby.... which is the only thing that I said at the beginning besides #17 I thought it was a clown that ate puffers ahah, #29 lfs do take stuff back, #33 trying to keep the peace,

#37:
You can't play both sides or I don't know how you can be in the hobby.

I'm just saying she's not being rational and am pointing out contradictions in what she's saying and I think she agrees

The problem with mixed feelings and contradictions is it makes half of what your saying garbage and steps on some people along the way.

Just pointing that out... it's ok to contradict yourself but if you point that out because you're confused your and ass and attacking people??

No worries... I'll just keep my frustrations to myself and quietly enjoy the positional yoyos