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-   -   Tang Police or Tang Nazis? (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=71528)

Aquattro 01-07-2011 09:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by asylumdown (Post 579934)
As for the ethics of keeping animals in glass boxes - that's always going to be a matter of opinion, but one would think that everyone here had to come to peace with that little conundrum by now.
Agreed. I guess my side of the fence feels that even though I've made peace with what I do, I'm not going to try and justify it with some story about research or saving fishies from sharks :) I am not a friend to the fish of the world (I eat tuna every day), but I'm ok with that.

Youngster Dan 01-07-2011 09:57 PM
Interesting read.

I only have one little issue with the article, with regards to measuring cortisol levels in the fish. It was stated that there wasn't really a difference in cortisol levels between captive fish (at various tank sizes) and fish in the "field". Now, I'm assuming you have to actually handle the fish to get a blood/cortisol sample?

Wouldn't the actual act of catching the fish induce stress (ie elevated cortisol) and so this stat is completely misleading? As every fish being tested is at an artificially elevated level of cortisol, and it being nearly impossible to take a baseline measurement?

Aquattro 01-07-2011 09:58 PM
Good catch Dan! :)

asylumdown 01-07-2011 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Youngster Dan (Post 579937)
Interesting read.

I only have one little issue with the article, with regards to measuring cortisol levels in the fish. It was stated that there wasn't really a difference in cortisol levels between captive fish (at various tank sizes) and fish in the "field". Now, I'm assuming you have to actually handle the fish to get a blood/cortisol sample?

Wouldn't the actual act of catching the fish induce stress (ie elevated cortisol) and so this stat is completely misleading? As every fish being tested is at an artificially elevated level of cortisol, and it being nearly impossible to take a baseline measurement?
I haven't read the article yet, but in my field (primate studies) we measure cortisol in feces and urine, with urine being the ideal source (try running through the forest with a giant funnel held over your head...). It's one of the easier hormones to study because of that fact actually. Not sure how they got their sample, but it seems to reason that they can probably get it passively

Lance 01-07-2011 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquattro (Post 579936)
Agreed. I guess my side of the fence feels that even though I've made peace with what I do, I'm not going to try and justify it with some story about research or saving fishies from sharks :) I am not a friend to the fish of the world (I eat tuna every day), but I'm ok with that.

Absolutely. My thoughts as well. I personally believe a fish is better off in the ocean than in my little pretend reef.
Buuuuuut, just to mix it up a little: How do we really know our fishies aren't perfectly happy in their little glass boxes. If we provide them with good water conditions, a healthy diet, suitable tankmates and hiding and swimming areas, they may after all be tickled pink. Fish pretty much run on instinct, and instinct says: eat and don't be eaten. I can provide them with that. So who the hell really knows? I don't pretend to.

Zoaelite 01-07-2011 10:14 PM
Quote:
Turner, J.W. Jr., Nemeth, R., Rogers, C. 2003. Measurement of fecal glucocorticoids in parrotfish to assess stress. General and Comparative Endocrinology 133 (2003) 341-352
Interesting that 4 pages of debate have happened over an article with a single reference that isn't even relevant to the fish we keep. What base line is drawn for showing stress? Are there any other types of fish that this was tested on? The article is a lacking allot of scientific structure.

2pts 01-07-2011 10:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquattro (Post 579877)
So while I may admire the intent to do well, believing we are is simply fiction. Reality is, we are a menace to the reefs!
100% agree.

Tang police, well my opinion is their overall effect may be that the average captive tang's swimming space will be marginally larger when compared to a tang that remains in the ocean.

Disclaimer: I have 2 tangs in my tank that is aproximately 130 gallons. If I can afford to, within a year and a half I will upgrade to a 200ish gallon tank.

Aquattro 01-07-2011 10:15 PM
Lance, don't you think you've caused enough trouble for one day?? :)

daniella3d 01-07-2011 10:20 PM
It may take a while before the cortisol level rise after a stress so they might have had plenty of time to take a sample without getting a stress response right away? could be.

then it could be that the fish returned to a normal level of stress after being handled so the stress hormones did not really rise. Maybe it take a constant amount of stress for this hormone to really show higher?

just my thoughts on it as I was wondering about the same thing when I read it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youngster Dan (Post 579937)
Interesting read.

I only have one little issue with the article, with regards to measuring cortisol levels in the fish. It was stated that there wasn't really a difference in cortisol levels between captive fish (at various tank sizes) and fish in the "field". Now, I'm assuming you have to actually handle the fish to get a blood/cortisol sample?

Wouldn't the actual act of catching the fish induce stress (ie elevated cortisol) and so this stat is completely misleading? As every fish being tested is at an artificially elevated level of cortisol, and it being nearly impossible to take a baseline measurement?

don.ald 01-07-2011 10:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniella3d (Post 579951)
It may take a while before the cortisol level rise after a stress so they might have had plenty of time to take a sample without getting a stress response right away? could be.

then it could be that the fish returned to a normal level of stress after being handled so the stress hormones did not really rise. Maybe it take a constant amount of stress for this hormone to really show higher?

just my thoughts on it as I was wondering about the same thing when I read it.
statistics, well, they are just statistics! use them to create an argument/article and then defend it.
one can use this stat to show that fish are under constant stress...captive, in nature, or while being handled.
all i know is that the sale of tangs have increased dramatically since this thread was started:lol:


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