Did I miss something? I didn't know he had started on his new tank? Where is the build located?

Hi Brett - No you didn't miss anything. I wondered if someone was going to call me on that. Maybe I should have left out the name dropping.

Anyway...

From Melev's Podcast "Reefcast 29b" - 12/29/08
Interview with Steve Weast
Time - 35m50s

"On my next system, there’s no way that I’m going to drill the bottom of the tank because I want that 100% fail safe that it’s impossible because there are no holes. I think I can achieve the same thing that my closed loop - and maybe surpass it - by through waveboxes and powerheads whether their Tunzes or something else under the rockwork but that are still accessible that I can pull them out and unclog them or clean them and put them right back in – just like my last tank was – those 4 Tunzes were perfectly accessible." - Steve Weast

(it's a conversation - I tried to transcribe it word for word)

Of course you have to consider the overall context of his comments and there's no way that I'm typing out any more than that. After listening to the interview a second time, I think I missed his point somewhat. It seems that Steve was more concerned about the safety considerations with his closed loop as opposed to "complexities" as I suggested. Although he does talk about pump maintenance which was a big part of my decision not to use a closed loop.

However, he is pretty clear about not wanting another closed loop and considering the one that he did have was awesome, I think his comments are a valid reference to my point of view.

I haven't heard anything about a "next tank". He does suggest in his comment that their might be a next tank, but some of his other comments also suggest that he really wanted to get out of the hobby completely.

I have to admit, that when I first read about his tank, it was very inspiring. His aquascaping influenced the tank that I am currently setting up.

- Brad

Heat
 

Whenever you think of heat in a reef tank, you immediately think of chillers and evaporative cooling. Well, at least that's the first thing that came to my mind. Heating a tank is just an after thought for the occasional cold night.

I am having a real problem with heating my tank. Without the lights on, the ambient water temperature is around 65F. That's with all of the pumps and power heads running. That's not even close to 78F.

I'm going to be lighting this tank with LEDs. There's very little radiant heat from these lights.

I've done tons of research on LED lighting and everyone points out that without MH lighting, you don't need a chiller. This equates to cost savings in both capital and operational expenses. Well, not if you consume huge amounts energy heating the tank?

I have 4 Marineland Visitherm 300W heaters hooked up right now and the tank is really struggling to approach 78F. That's 1200W of heating! Do I need more?

I'm well aware of the problems with heaters including stuck on, stuck off, exploding, etc. I have the 4 heaters connected to my Apex. In the future I may split this load across 2 Apex controllers (2 on each). I'm reasonably confident in this approach and should be able to catch a disaster before it happens.

I've also noted that the sump temp is generally cooler than the display tank. I haven't yet measured the exact variation, but it seems consistent.

I'm currently heating the return section of the sump and measuring the temp in the chamber right before the return section. Therefore, heated water has to circulate through the tank and back to the sump before the temperature sensor is able to detect a change. This seemed like a good idea as it ensure that the heated water fully mixes before the temperature measurement is taken, but I am less sure of this now.

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/heat/heating.gif

I'm also considering insulating the sump, but I'm really not sure how much that would help?

Does anyone have any experience or advice in keeping tanks warm? - Is there a better approach to this? - Are titanium heaters really more efficient (I've heard of higher than average failure rates, but possibly better performance)?

I appreciate the feedback...

- Brad

have verified that all four heaters work? I would put each one in a 5 gallon bucket of water and test them

also the apex and other controllers sometimes have outlets that only work for certain things (relayed outlets or something) You may want to make sure the apex is actually able to power the heater on each of the outlets you're using.

You can't count 100% of heater use as a "loss" technically, any "lost" heat is going into your house, which you are also paying to heat. The only lost heat would be days that your house is hotter than your tank. It is inefficient heating, but unless you have a nice heat pump(by the look of your HRV you might) it isn't too bad.

Not to mention the 9 month of calgary winter....

Nice build though, I've been watching for awhile, looks great and good detail.

How much turnover do you have in your sump compared to tank volume? I've always heard the general rule of thumb that you need around 5 to 7 times volume turnover through the sump to keep heaters down there. I'm sure you have this or knew it already but it bears asking.

What's the ambient temperature in your house? All things being equal your tank should equalize to that after some time and you would only need to heat your tank the incremental difference. Ie., house at 21c the heaters need only raise it 5c to get to 26c (sorry I don't think in terms of F for temperature. The very first dive I ever did was at the Great Barrier Reef, the water temp there was 26c, and that's what stuck in my head mentally ever since). If you run your house at say a chillier 18c the heaters need only bump it 8c to get to 26c. That's not a lot.

So I'm thinking that either the heaters aren't outputting what you think, or there is loss of heat to somewhere (the floor? is the sump sitting directly on concrete or is there foam under the glass?)

If all 4 heaters were on that should be the full 1200w which seems ample to me. By contrast, my 280g, I use one 1000W titanium heater on a Ranco controller, the RO/DI was a frigid 8c filling up, and the heater brought it to 26c within 24 hours (not sure exactly how many hours it took, I just checked the next day and it was 26c). It's been steady ever since. So I think your 1200W should be doing the trick, there is something more going on here that we haven't put our finger on methinks.

I just read this entire thread. Great build and well thought out.

Very impressive build and I must say one of the best organized build threads out there.

It is like you write manuals/books for a living, well done.

Hey Phi Delt

I haven't done the bucket test, but your right to an extent. One of the things that seems to be happening is that the heaters are turning on and off. I think this is in part due to their close proximity to each other. I have their thermostat set at 81F (or close) and the Apex set at 78F, but even at 81F they are cycling. I think the radiant heat from the neighboring heaters is causing this. I thought that the water turbulence would be sufficient in the small sump chamber to avoid this, but perhaps not. I will move them further apart or set their thermostats higher.

The Apex Energy Bar 8 (EB8) is rated at:

8 independently controllable 120V Outlets (Max 5 Amps, total current must be less than 15 Amps)

300W/110V = 2.72Amps - So I'm safe.

For a 500W Heater - 500W/110V = 4.55Amps - Getting close to the upper limit.

For a 1000W Heater - 1000W/110V = 9 Amps - I would need the EB4

Hey Lampshade

I've seen this effect first hand. The first winter that my 90G tank was running, our gas usage was roughly half of what it had been the previous year. That's with the MH lighting, but the point is the same. The heat from the tank, does heat the house.

Unfortunately, a heat pump might have to wait 10 or 20 years :smile:

Thanks for the feedback Tony

I have almost exactly 4X turnover through the sump (300G total water volume - 1200Gph measured return). I had never heard the 5-7X guideline before, but it is interesting though. I'm sure it has to do with the rate of mixing and the temperature variance between the display and the sump. More turnover would reduce this variance, but heating the water in the sump to a higher temp should also counter this effect.

Ambient house temp is ~20C. 78F converts to 25.6C, so our targets are similar enough. The heaters have to provide ~6C of additional heat.

We have our furnace thermostat set to lower the temp during the day while we are at work and at night while we are sleeping. I think I will have to consider the effectiveness of this strategy.

I'm interested in the titanium heaters. I've read that they are more efficient watt for watt than traditional glass heaters. By the sounds of it, they may be considerably more efficient. I'm not getting anywhere near that much heating power from my heaters. They aren't exactly expensive either, so I will probably cut my losses and go in that direction.

As you suggested, it's likely a combination of factors. I'm still working out the bugs but I'm getting really close to adding the first fish!

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the encouragement. It keeps me motivated.

couple tests to see if what you are thinking is happening.

Get a normal mercury thermometer and test the water by your heat probes current placement (ie. verify the probe is accurate)

measure the temp in the hot spots you think you may have in your tank (ie. between the thermometers.

This equation will help you determine how many watts of heat you need for your system for what length of time.


equation has the following variables included

• specific gravity of sea water is 1025 kg/m3
• your total system volume is 300 gallons
• specific gravity of sea water is 3850 J/Kg*C

Watts = 4481361.50 x (change in TEMP[Celsius]/change in TIME[seconds])

obviously you need to sub in two variables to figure out the third.

so here are some 'measurements'

1. given Tony's example and your data if you wanted to raise the temp of you water 6 degrees C in 24 hours you would only 311 watts from your heaters.
2. if you used all 1200 watts of heaters to raise your system volume 6 degrees it would only take 5.802 hours.

figuring out how much heat is needed to maintain a temp would require heat loss knowledge :confused: Maybe when you get your system to ideal temp turn off the heaters and see how long it takes for the temp to drop exactly 1 degree Celsius (possibly use the data logger in the APEX?)

So skimmed through to update myself again and things are coming along very nicely Brad !Great work.

Thanks Everyone!

I think my main problem with heat comes down to faulty heaters. In addition, I think there may be some efficiency to be found by switching to titanium heaters.

Two of the heaters are having issues with their thermostats (they are all brand new). I have replaced one for now and will replace all of them sometime soon.

I did take temperature readings throughout the tank to look for hot spots. I anticipated finding them, but in reality the water temperature is fairly constant throughout the system. When the heaters are on, the temperature in the return chamber of the sump can rise about .4F, but overall that seems inconsequential and it stabilizes within seconds of turning the heaters off.

I'll likely pick up 3x 500W titanium heaters the first chance I get.

I do find it somewhat ironic that I expected to save energy by going with LED lighting. It looks like the cost savings in PAR per watt, will be offset by the cost of heating the tank. It will probably still be a little cheaper, but not by much.

Anyways, it was an interesting topic to research. I'd never really given much thought to it in the past.

- Brad

Didn't have time to read your whole build thread but titanium heaters are definitely the way to go! After a malfunction with a stealth heater that caught on fire, and hearing stories of glass heaters breaking, for the same price titanium heaters are 10 times more reliable, also they need a controller to run them which is an extra fail safe. I currently run mine through the chiller so its either heat, nothing or cool as oppose to before when it would heat and cool at the same time. And IMO it is energy efficient as I hardly ever see it on now that my chiller runs it and the temp swings 1 degree when the lights are on from 78f to 79! Get it you won't be disappointed!

I've been busy trying to work through some of the bugs in my system. I've made some progress and had some setbacks.

One of my heaters exploded this morning. I hadn't intended to ever use this heater as I knew the risk of explosion was there, but I figured the risk was small and there's no livestock in my tank yet.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...231#post590231

Ironically, I had already ordered titanium heaters from BRS to replace the Marineland heaters that I am using now. I really should have done a little more research and just bought the right ones first.

My tank went through a massive bacteria bloom from the biopellets. I thought it would be a good idea to run these while the tank cycled, but in hind sight I think this was a mistake.

One interesting thing is that the initial bloom occurred with the tank at around 20C. After heating the tank to 26C, I went through another massive bacteria bloom. In total, I've gone through about 3 inches of the pellets.

Oh the mistakes. One day, I'll know these things.

I bought a 200G loaf tank for saltwater storage. I'm pretty happy with this as it will allow me to do big water changes if needed (like now). It will also be the primary storage for my continuous water change system. I should only have to top it up once a month and could let it run for up to 6 weeks if need be.

I have received my SpectraPure LiterMeter III pumps for the water change project. These were the best peristaltic pumps that I could afford and that are available to hobbyists.

I moved one of my two Tunze Ozmolators from my 90G to my new tank only to discover that the pump had seized. I can't say for sure when it failed but I remember testing it within the past couple of weeks. I've replaced the pump and set it up on the new tank, but it does show the need for redundancy.

I have an old 110W light over the tank now just so that I have something to look at. I should have some real lights within the next couple of weeks.

All of the parameters seem to be stable.

What are the dimensions of your load tank? Where did you get it?

The place I've been looking at has a really ltd selection of loaf tanks so I'm leaning towards a cylinder.

Hi Brett

The dimensions are 58"Lx29"Wx37"H. It was made by paddleplastics - www.paddleplastics.com

I picked it up in Crossfield from Promould: 403-946-9920

I looked at a similar tank from Calgary Plastics (aka Richards Packaging). They didn't have any in stock and wanted over $100 to have it brought in. They quoted something like $550. I paid $400 from Promould.

The tank comes with a mainway and a bulkhead that was installed at the time of purchase. I had them put the mainway on, but put the bulkheads on myself. I installed the bulkheads on the bottom of the tank.

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/loaftank/loaftank1.jpg

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/loaftank/loaftank3.jpg

Some pictures of the tank.

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/tank_...eb18_11-03.jpg

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/tank_...eb18_11-01.jpg

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/tank_...eb18_11-05.jpg

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/tank_...eb18_11-06.jpg

Note: I hate dry rock; although it does have it's advantages (cost, no pests, easy to work with). The egg crate basket has Cheato in it. I'm hoping to get some micro life going on in the display (this is the first of many things that I will try).. I've also ordered some detritivores and established live sand online.

If anyone can spare a small piece of established live rock from a pest free tank, I would be very happy to pay top dollar for it. Please let me know...

The light is temporary. It's from an old tank and has been in storage for years. I'm glad I kept it.

Just a brief update for now:

I've had my continuous water change running for the past 3 weeks or so. I'm really happy with how stable it's been. If your interested, I documented it in post 20 of this thread. If you saw my original plans, you will be pleased to know that in the end I scraped the whole loop thing and just went with a basic setup. There are a few tricks to getting it balanced though.

I've ordered a Probe Expansion Module and a Salinity probe for my Apex to monitor salinity in the tank. I have no plans to use this for control - just monitoring and alerting. I haven't had good luck with these probes in the past, but I will try one more time. Hopefully it works out better this time.

I've added two MP60s to the tank. Wow these are awesome pumps. I haven't played with all of the different modes yet. I also have the Apex WXM on order.

I've been playing a lot with the flow in the tank recently. It's not easy to get it perfect. It seems that the powerheads either kick up sand or cause problems with surface skimming. I think I have everything figured out.

I still don't have any real lights on the tank. I'm told that I should have some really nice LEDs within the next week or two. Patience is a virtue.

Things have generally been stable. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to seed the dry rock in the tank. I do have some ideas but nothing confirmed yet.

Also if your interested - I posted some pictures of my 90G tank here:

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...threadid=73619

I don't really plan to do much more with this tank. I'll probably take a few more pictures before it gets shut down. I just thought it would be fun to share how it looks now.

- Brad

(Flow should get better over time as the sand starts to get a biological film over the grains.)

Wow that is quite the writeup for water changes. :) Neat ideas!

I suppose an alternative to flow meters on the peristaltic pumps you could install high and low level sensors in the sump? If one of the pumps failed, blocked or otherwise became out of calibration it probably wouldn't take long for the sump level to rise or fall so a few float sensors in there might be a simple approach ?

Thanks Tony!

The challenge with level sensors is evaporation and ATO. It would work if the pump taking water from the tank failed. I think the rate of water change would exceed evaporation and the water level in the tank would slowly rise. However, if the pump adding new water to the tank failed, the ATO would keep the water level constant.

My current plan is to observe the system using a salinity probe. If either pump fails, the salinity should drift. If the calibration of the pumps is not perfect, the salinity should drift. I have no plans to use the salinity probe for control, but it should provide a good indication of the CWC operation. I may use it to automatically shut the whole system off if something doesn't look right, but the rate of change should be small enough that I can manually react long before a real problem arises.

My only concern with the Salinity probe is getting a stable reading. When I tried this on my 90G tank, I was never successful in getting an accurate and stable reading. If the probe drifts on it's own, it won't tell me anything about the operation of the CWC. The initial calibration doesn't have to be exact, but the measurement will need to be 100% stable. I'm hoping that I can find a way to achieve this with the newer hardware and a better understanding of how the probe works. We shall see soon enough :smile:

The system is working well for me now, but there's probably some minor improvements still to be made.

March FTS

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/fts/f...2011-small.jpg

• I have a light! - Vertex Illumina 260 - SR 1800.
• I've had 4 independant 15A circuits run to the control room behind my tank. Each of these circuits is protected by a GFCI outlet. Critical equipment is split across independant circuits so that if a GFCI outlet trips it will not cause a tank crash.
• I have the salinity probe working. It's certainally more stable than the one I had with my AC3, but still tends to wander. The error margin seems to be about +/- 0.3 ppt. That's probably good enough for an early warning system on my CWC.
• I have the Apex controlling the VorTech pumps. I really dislike programming the VorTech's using the EcoSmart Controller colour system. For such advanced pumps you would think they could include a simple LCD display and menu? - Anyway, I created a set of virtual outlets on the Apex which map to VorTech pump profiles. I can switch between pump profiles by activating the virtual switches. This works great for testing the various modes. Default control moves through various profiles based on time-of-day.
• I've been working on getting my autofeeders working. You can see them in the FTS above. More on this later.
• I've started building the panneling for the stand. This has proven to be a long and drawn out process as I can't seem to find the motivation to complete this project. At least it's in progress.
• I've replumbed my bio-pellet reactors. I had the two reactors in series but found the pump to be way to powerful. They are now in parallel and I've added a tee for the carbon and phosphate reactors (not online yet). I am much happier with the new configuration.
• I've started setting up the Vertex RX6-Duo Calcium Reactor.

The tank has been stable!

Looks gerate...Any detail pics of the mounting apparatus?

Looks sweet.

Hey Cale

Thanks for the props. The light is currently suspended from a light rack that was built as a feature of the stand. I have to admit that this has been very useful, but ultimately I don't think it will be my final solution. One problem is the rails are positioned at the outer edge of the tank whereas the mount point for the Vertex is about 10 inches inside. What this light rack does is buy me time while I figure out how to suspend the light from the ceiling.

http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/light...lightrack1.jpg . http://owa.footit.ca/wwwimages/light...lightrack3.jpg

I wanted the ability to slide the light out of the way, so I hung the lights from a short section of acrylic tubing. I used a couple of felt guard sticky things that protect floors from furniture to allow it to slide. Again, not perfect, but it serves the purpose.

Thanks Greenmaster. Can't wait to see your tank take off. You've really shown your ability to be patient these last couple of months. Good job!

I will be very interested to see what you think of the lighting , and how it works out for you . I was looking at these as a possible option one day for me as well.

Everything looks well done so far . Great job.

That's a clever way to slide your light! I think I just sorted out how I'm going to allow my pendants to individually slide within my canopy thank-you =)

Thanks Rus. To be completely honest, I am not 100% convinced these lights are going to work for me. I've done my homework though and I am about 99% sure they will be awesome. Either way, the lightning effects are cool.

I have a long journey ahead of me before my tank looks anything like yours. I'm having fun so far. BTW - I changed my mind about the Dispars. I going with Bartlett's.

Hey Bret - Funny you should say that. I'm taking my ideas from your earlier builds. Once the build settles down, I'm going to be in the market for some linear actuators. :smile:

Brad tank looking awesome!

glad to see your gonna stick with the Illumina, i know your gonna end up loving it in the end!

I'm going to be tagging along!

Brad,
Tank is coming along nicely. Just through your thread and I am thinking of running a deep sand bed myself. I will be lifting my rock work as well, never thought of that before, good idea. You will have to keep us informed on your lighting route, like yourself, I am not completely confident on the LED fixtures. Alot are showing up on the market, and I have not seen a lot of tank have complete success....yet. There are a few on RC that are claiming to have great outcomes, so who knows, I am still a couple months off committing to one or the other, but I do have something in mind. At any rate, tank looks good.

little late but awesome tank loving it, following on from here:):)

So, today I learned a few things. For the first time I truely understand why many people don't like sand beds. I've just spent about 4+ hours cleaning mine and it was no fun at all.

Over the last couple of months, I have been constantly fighting with what I would describe as a massive bacterial bloom in my tank. At times it takes the form of long stringy things that hang off the rocks. It comes and goes in the water column but seems to have persisted as a film on the rocks and in the sand. I knew it was in the sand bed, but I figured it would break down over time and perhaps it would have, but after what I just cleaned out it might have taken years?!

I started noticing areas in the sand bed that looked like a thick crust that had shifted and broken apart. Kind of like snow when a crust forms on top and then water melts the bottom and it eventually cracks. I figured it was only in a few places and still hoped it would start breaking up on its own. Oh to be so naive.

Last night I decided to siphon out a section that was particularly bad and in the process discovered that the entire sand bed was encrusted about ¼” thick – held together by a bacterial sludge.

Many buckets and a few spills later I had siphoned off the top layer of the entire sand bed. Rinsed thoroughly in tap water, then ro/di, then saltwater and back in the tank. Mixed the clean sand with the old sand and tried to stir up the areas where I wasn’t able to siphon. The tank went white with floating bacteria that I hadn’t been able to get at. Wow.

The other thing I learned, or rather concluded is that it’s probably not a good idea to run biopellets right from the get go. It just complicates things too much and it takes a long time for the bacteria to find their balance. There’s likely some competition between the biopellet bacteria and the live rock bacteria and that isn’t really a good thing. Also because there isn’t much to skim out of the tank, the skimmer is having a hard time processing all of the bacteria and skimming super wet. I keep thinking that I’m winning the battle and then realize that I’m not even close.

- Brad

Hey Todd - Thanks for the note. I'm really encouraged by your success with these lights. Your pictures are amazing. It's way too early for me to really have much of an opinion as my tank is doing all kinds of strange things. As you know, I'm not completely convinced that this light is going to do what I want it too, but I am in the camp that believes in LED technology and I am cautiously optimistic. No question that the Illumina is an engineering marvel. If it works it will change the hobby.

Hi Bob - I had good success with my DSB in my 90G tank. I've had less success with my Shallow Sand Bed in my new tank. I think the trick is to get it heavily populated with sand sifting critters; although this is somewhat easier said than done. As far as lifting the rock goes, that has worked really well for me. If you haven't seen how I did this on my 90G tank, there's some pictures here.

I really want the LED lighting to be a winner. I will keep you updated.

Thanks Denny - I really like the video you posted of the glass cutting. I was surprised by the low salinity of seawater where you are.

Sorry to hear about the hassles. I love the look of my sandbed but yeah it can be a hassle at the same time. I'd get a sand-sifting fish to help you out. My sand was also forming solid layers (but fused with what may have been cyano) which quickly disappeared with my goby always sifting.

Interesting idea about the pellets too. Maybe you should suspend their operation until the tank has a decent bioload. Your skimmer definitely looked severely under-worked when I saw it.

Beautiful absolutly prefect

May ask what was the cost of the stand as I am planning a 180 DD build inwall and just want to get an idea of the cost to go to a steel stand such as yours

Thanks

Looking forward to the progress

All throughout the planning stages on my current tank I was convinced I would stay BB for it. I've run smaller tanks BB and it was always amazing to me how much vaccuuming was required every week to keep them BB. Sandbeds hide this aspect which is both good and bad: it may look good but what lurks beneath?

In the end I chickened out and put sand in at the last minute. Two reasons, actually maybe three: 1) The rockwork that I built for myself has various supporting structures (combo of of acrylic and PVC on different pieces of it) and sand does a nice job of hiding that - otherwise I would have had to use rubble and I'm not a huge fan of rubble piles. 2) The silicone on the bottom edges is supremely thick and it was distracting to look at so sand hides that. And then 3) I have some fish that prefer to bury in sand at night and I thought it would be a kinder thing to offer them that.

I have to say that I still prefer the look of a shallow sand bed even with all the aggravation it causes. Sand storms, bacterial clumping etc.etc. I have a cleanup crew including sand dollars, conchs and nassarius and for the most part they keep up. I also put some moon snails in there but in hindsight this was a questionable move. They do an *incredible* job of turning sand over, but they are predatory. Nice newby level mistake on my part: buy first, research later. Oops. It's too bad, they are really neat snails. Look exactly like the apple sized moon snails you can find on on the BC coast but at 1" in size (and pure white in colour).

So I like the look, but I TOTALLY understand why some choose not to.

Thought I'd toss this out there:

http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22732

♥