Ian,

I've been reading the instructions on the pellets and it does mention UV will slow down the bacteria.
So if continue running the UV the pellets will still do their thing, just more slowly....

What would you or others recommend on the UV issue.

Thanks,

Chris

I've been following a thread on Reef Central about these pellets and the genral consensus is that U.V. should really only affect this product if the U.V. is on the inlet and not the outlet...

Ok, its been five weeks today since starting the pellets. And I dont think i am experiencing what everyone else is.

[IMG]http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/w...5/P1000710.jpg[/IMG]

This test was taken today after a 10% water change. Tank water on right and reactor output oh the left, doesnt really matter. High nitrates aside, they should be different correct???

Info.

-330gal ish tank

-Vertex reactor on mj1200. Pellets tumbling nicely

-1L of NP bio pellets.

-Tank has been up for about 5 months, and used live rock from old tank.

-Sand was from old tank as well but rinsed thoroughly, safe to say very clean.

The only thing i can think of that might be a contributing factor in the whole picture is that I used this http://www.tetra-fish.com/sites/tetr...id=1276&cid=73to make up a large portion of the initial startup water. It made my skimmer go crazy. It says on the package that it has mucous promoting chemical which I assume is the reason for the skimmer overflow.

Could the mucous promoting chemical in the water conditioner be killing the whole carbon bacteria cycle in my Bio pellets?????

Ian I have yet to try bacteria supp, kinda hard to find, but I did slow down the reactor to no avail.


Could anyone tell me what exactly should be happening.


Thanks
Cam

updated video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbuPRkYg-FA

Cam,

I am perplexed as to what is happening in your tank with Nitrates, there has to be some sort of activity that is limiting bacterial colonization of the Pellets...... I would most definitely try to find some Zeobac or Microbacter 7 in order to inoculate your system. You could be dealing with a chemical issue or simply a monoculture in your tank.

Cameron,

Great little video, could you email me the file so we can post it to our Youtube channel?

Thanks!

I would not really run the UV unless you are dealing with certain issues within your tank, even on the outlet the UV is counterproductive to any bacterial driven nutrient reduction system.....

Ian

FWIW, I have run with the pellets both with UV and without. In fact, I am currently running 57w of UV because due to sloppy QT practices on my part I introduced ich to my established livestock (luckily, the UV seems to be helping). At any rate, the nitrate reduction capacity of the pellets does not appear to be diminished.

Having said that, I would prefer not to run UV at all and plan to disconnect it at some point. It is simply a bandaid in the meantime.

Regarding monocultures .. I believe this is a key issue with a few tanks that are not showing dramatic nitrate reduction in the timeframes that others have seen. Plus, nitrate can be bound to substrate (rock and sand), once this happens, it can take a much longer time to see a reduction in the water column readings because as soon as it is removed from the water (ie, by bacterial uptake), it is replaced out of that bound in the substrate. This is not too uncommon, and the solution really is just patience for the most part.

However a bacterial supplement idea has merit. When I started pellets I ran both zeovit and pellets and saw a tremendous reduction of nitrate in a very short order of time. However, I realize now this was due in part to the systems running in parallel and that zeovit requires you to actively dose bacterial strains. When I ran the two systems together, I could test nitrate at the input and at the output of the pellet reactor and could see a noticeable difference (in fact, I would get zero readings in the effluent). Since disbanding zeovit and just staying with pellets, the difference now is more subtle. This makes sense to me: the daily added bacteria was consuming nitrate in a frenzy, but was not a sustainable culture. Thus when stopping the dosing, my tank in fact showed an increase in nitrates and took close to a month or maybe even a little over a month to start showing a decrease once again. Only now about two months after do I get close to zero readings again.

Thus I offer the 2 lessons learned:
1) If you want a faster reduction, you can consider a bacterial supplement such as Zeobak or LB7 or similar product. But ...
2) The flipside is that unless you are comfortable redosing these on a permanent basis, when you STOP dosing it, the bacterial cultures will have to adjust themselves to a more self-sustaining population and this will take more time.
3) The pellets DO work on their own, they are far less troublesome and maintenance intensive than other systems .. the worst case scenario is you may simply need to wait for it to establish. Thus (like with many things) patience is a virtue and all that good stuff.

HTH..

Very well written and looks to be bang on, good call Tony.

Ian
O.C.

ok, noob question here....the term "monoculture" has been used a bunch of times in this thread and each time I hear myself saying "and just what the hell is monoculture?"

Clearly it is a singular strain of bacteria of some sort but which one and why is it so relevant to NP Pellets ?

Enquiring minds what to know !

Having a large varied biomass of bacteria maximizes the types and amounts of nutrients exported out of your system. A single type of bacteria is suited for what it requires while many different species cover the whole spectrum.

That being said, very little is known on the relationship between Bacteria and their surroundings, this is something that is currently being studied. Most of the bacteria supplements we add to our tank are nitrobacter or Nitrosomonas but here is a statement from Ency. Britannica to give you a little info.

N/P pellets are part of the evolution of carbon dosing and the first "solid" vodka method. Carbon dosing in some form is key to Zeovit and other UNLS systems. Vodka was a cheaper alternative. Early criticisms of dosing vodka alone was that it would produce a monoculture of bacteria in your aquarium and limit the diversity of good bacteria. Vodka is not the only carbon source. A variation that incorporate vodka-sugar-vinegar and incoorporated biodigest became quite popular as theory of the VSV method was to avoid a monoculture. Here is a good read.

http://glassbox-design.com/2008/achi...perimentation/

As far as I know the make-up of N/P pellets is still unknown so some critics fear it will create a monoculture of bacteria, especially after longterm use.

So in a nutshell, a little bit of a lot of different types of bacteria is what we want. A lot of a single strain is not (probably runs amok !).

I hope to have pellets online tonight so we'll see how it goes.

If it was me I'd start dosing a bacteria source first for 2-4 weeks before starting the pellets in a fluidized reactor. I use Brightwells Microbacter 7 (its cheapest) but Prodibio biodigest or whatever Zeo calls their bacteria culture. Build a diverse bacteria population first and then begin exporting it via carbon dosing/protein skimming.

Interesting thought. I was planning on running about 1/10 of a bag (so ~100ml) of pellets to start. After a few weeks, I was going to double it and run with a total of 200-250 ml.

The thought was to not shock the system too much. On top of that, I've just torn the tank apart to add the sump and re-aquascape so it's almost 100% new water and freshly cleaned sand so I'm a little low on bacteria right now.

Maybe I need to rethink this.

Well I have egg on my face. I took a water sample into a LFS yesterday and guess what. Thats right no Nitrates and no Phos either. Looks like that new test kit I bought was faulty as well as my old one. Now off to buy a new test kit. Hopefully its my tests that are bad and not the LFS'.

Cam

Which test kit were you useing, and kind was the LFS useing? the reason I am asking, is that I am having about the same reading as you were for nitrate. I am running 1L np pellets with a tlf 550 for over 11 weeks, I am useing a Salifert test kit.

I was originally using Salifert as well which was an old test kit. then I bought a Red Sea test kit. Both showed fairly close to the same readings. I think that the lfs was using a hagen? not entirely too sure.

If you don't have a very high powered skimmer (Tunze Nano) will the pellets have any negative effects? Doesn't this mulm need to be skimmed out quickly?

I have noticed my PH being lower as of late and assume its either low oxygen levels or my probe needs calibration. I think what they say is its best to get the majority of the "mulm" out to raise the level of dissolved oxygen as the bacteria on in the mulm is using it up which is why u are supposed to put the out put of your reactor in front of the skimmer. Also a better skimmer will oxygenate the water more effectively.

My tank is open-top with a powerhead aimed at the surface so I think my oxygen would be ok. My concern is a buildup of this mulm when my skimmer doesn't remove large volumes. I'm thinking the water will get cloudy and the mulm may possibly have other effects if left in the water.

From what I have noticed in my tank is that there really is no noticeable discharge from the reactor itself. Maybe there is a little bit more particulate in the water column but definitely no clouding. Also the mulm is taken up by fish corals and other critters as afood source. I see my fish eating alot of stuff from the water lately. Also my skimmer is kinda small for the size of tank I run as well.

I just setup my vertex uf-15 reactor and have it Tee'd off of my return pump with the oulet feeding into my skimmer conpartment and getting lots of flow thru the reactor but no tumble:cry: I added a 500ml bag to the 300ml I already had in my TLF reactor. Do I have to many pellets? should I remove some and throw them out?

Alright I have 2 Questions in regards to the Bio pellets sump location and how much should go into the reactor.

1) Where is the best spot to put this in my sump? This is my current sump(attached). I have my Skimmer in the middle compartment and my return in the right compartment.

2) I bought Ian's NpX-Bio Bead / Vertex Reactor kit with mod, UF-15 model with a mj 1200 pump.. From what I have read from the posts, I take out the two sponges, add the pellets, then start it up. How many pellets should I add? Am I missing anything?

One last thing...the MJ1200 comes with a bunch of accesories. Does anybody have a pic of one of these set-up?

Thanks!
Chris

Nice looking sump Chris! Yes, toss the sponges and add 1/2 of the Bio Beads to your reactor, you do not need to use any of the accessories from the MJ1200 box. After about 1-2 weeks add the rest of the Beads and make sure they are tumbling aggressively~ That's it!

Ian

Thanks Ian. Half of a 550ml bag?
Should I have the reactor pump in the same compartment as my skimmer pump?

Yeah half the bag should be fine although you could most likely start with the whole bag, just watch for clouding if your nutrients are high. Employing the pump in the same compartment would work fine, it makes no difference really.

Thanks!

Pumps and 'tumble'
 

I also bought the U15 and an MJ1200 and found that with 500ml of pellets there wasn't enough flow to keep them tumbling, so I put an AC 802 (with about 30% higher flow) on. I have also added another 500ml for a total of 1000ml. I now have a very nice slow tumble througout the reactor.

My pellets have been running for almost a month now, and I saw a bit of cloudiness during the second week. I have also seen some cyano, but nothing major.

My tank had excessively high nitrates, and between that, some agressive water changes, and really good skimming my nitrates have come down from 'utterly blinding' to merely 'horific'

General Questions
 

Maybe I missed this but......when you run pellets, does it increase your foam production from your skimmer? I started mine (FINALLY......took me awhile once I got all the stuff) and my skimmer is REALLY foaming.......sorry if it was answered already....:biggrin:

Sarah - yes it will increase skimmate production as the bacteria containing the nitrate/phosphate is removed at an increased rate. Skimmate density, color (darker) and odor will be intensified. Ya... it will even smell worse.

OH GAWD.....WORSE???????? UGH, now my husband REALLY will run for cover!!! Thank you for answering! It's sure skimming well!

When I first began using the pellets the skimmer began to pull darker skimmate after 3 to 4 days. After about a week I noticed the skimmate increasing in volume. Very nice. I'm happy.
Now, after 5 months of use I'm noticing the skimmate changing. It is now a lighter colour and the thick skimmate collecting on the walls of the collection cup and neck are almost of a "chunky" texture with two different shades of brown. The chunks are a lighter brown than the more normal paste-like stuff. It is unlike any other skimmate I've seen. I just cleaned the skimmer tonight but will post some pics of this strange skimmate in a few days.
Anybody else notice a change in the skimmate after several months of pellet use? And if so what does it mean? There is no change in the levels of nitrates and phosphates. :noidea:

Never noticed anything like this and I have been running over 2500ml for months, maybe the skimmer is out of adjustment or something!

Can't say I've had anything similar either Lance. What kind of skimmer? I would be investigating whether there could be a blockage in the air intake or something of this nature..

It is a MR-3 Dual Beckett powered by an Iwaki 70RLT. No, I don't think there is any problem with the skimmer. It pulls large amounts of skimmate (about 2 cups per day on a well-stocked 225g) The skimmate volume is the same and still smells as bad, it just is changing colour and texture. I'm wondering if it is pulling something new out of the water. I've been dosing half doses of Coral Snow, Pohl's Coral Vitalizer and Amino Acid for the last several weeks and maybe this has something to do with it?

I noticed exactly the same.
Using pellets since December 2009.
Same effect on both skimmers. One is Deltec HOB the other DIY air driven (keeps my ORP constantly above 400):biggrin:

OK, great! I'm not the only one with weird skimmate :lol: Any ideas what causes it?

I can speculate that it is bacterial byproducts suspended in water column, but that just a thought.
Also i started feeding more lately so maybe that is also a contributing factor.

Ha! I've always overfed, so I don't think that would be an issue in my tank. :biggrin: