I think you're right there. I have been an Apple guy since my Apple II days. But I have used them all including various flavours of Windows and Unix workstations (back before even Linux when it was a command prompt interface). I actually have a slightly older XP box that has been used for the odd game and playing some videos on our TV but I would never use it for real work :smile: It has given me more problems then the Mac and I don't do anything crazy with it. No matter what I do I can't get the ATI drivers etc. to work properly.

Also, iPhoto does do more then just adjust white balance now. It isn't photoshop but you can do some basic retouching and alot of colour, contrast and sharpness adjustments along with some cool built in effects as well. So depending on what image editing you need to do iPhoto could very well be enough to do the job. The one really cool feature is that you can easily create photo books and then order them from Apple. They make great gifts of family shots or you can make your own coffee table books or books with photos from trips with your friends etc.

Oh ya right. My son would like it however. I believe his next desktop is going to be liquid cooled. :surprise:

my first one was the apple IIE, I should have kept it as it would be a nice paperweight now. its funny cuz when I got that I was 14, had to build it my self and you pretty much had to write the code to all your games. or coppy them out of a mag. 11 years later the IBM DX2-66 was out and was the hotest thing on the market with 512K of ram and a 40meg hard drive. 2 years later I upgraded to a P166, 2 years later an AMD 900, 2 years after that a P4 1.2 laptop, then 6 years later a p2.2 quadcore desktop, and a year after that replaced the laptop with a 2.53 core 2 duo.

its amazing the progress of computers over the years.

as for Iphoto, it is the same thing as the free photo software that comes with vista, win7, ect.. lets normal people do some neat crafts and basic retouching of photos. I put up with it for quite a while as my old photo shop wouldn't run on vista.. I finaly broke down and upgraded my photoshop.

Steve

Or turning Steve to T-5,s. :lol:

I have been doing that for sure. Perhaps one reason the iMac appeals, besides its clean look, is the 3.06GHz processor, 4GB ram and 500GB hard drive for close to the same price as their lap tops. As mobility is not the major reason for my purchase, it may be the best buy in that price range.

I leaning towards the HP I listed, if going down to the lesser price range. But not going to add all the additional warrenty, as it then brings me back to the iMac price, well close anyways.

So I,m thinking the Mac Books are now out of the equasion and down to the iMac or the HP or a comparable PC laptop, based on price. If the Mac Books that are a fair bit more money had at least 4g ram and little larger hard drives, then they would be favored. But even adding 2g more ram brings them up another $200 and over the price of the iMac.

Checked them out yesterday. Although the way they tied up at Staples not much to check out. Nothing listed on the boxes as to photo editing, so guess its a secret until open. Plus great for a desktop, looks kind of like a pain for laptops, unless they sitting on a desk, which then makes them desk tops. :lol: My wife, who uses her IBM laptop strickly on a table, wants one though. She,s not to fond of her mouse and never uses the touch pad.

If portability is not a factor for you I would absolutely hands-down go with a PC desk top for a couple of reasons:
1) You pay a fair sized premium for the portability of a laptop and could get a much higher end desktop for the same money
2) Upgradeability. You can upgrade almost everything in a desktop machine thus extending the useful life of the same basic system and spreading the cost of upgrades out over a longer time.

And the clutter isn't really that much more significant over a laptop, especially if you're plugging a mouse, keyboard, bamboo pad, monitor, printer, etc. in.

Check This one out

http://www2.dell.com/ca/en/home/desk...xps8100_en_1~~

Blows the laptops out of the water

Edit: Went through the customization process and at the final page it informs you that as a bonus you get Bon Jovi's newest Album... How do you say no to a system with free bon jovi?

Um.. I have two T5 setups Ill have you know! and there both used as T5's should be, one of a fresh water tank and one still waiting to be put togeather for actinics on a tank.

but now I am thinking I need some undercabnet lighting for the shop, so maybe I should use T5. lord knows it will work better for that than it would in a fish tank :wink:

Steve

These are true if you are comparing PC's, but do not come into play in a Mac vs. PC comparison. The two operating systems process information at different speeds and efficiency. Just like the varying speeds at which the languages we speak can convey the same information, operating system languages process information at varying speeds. A processor on a Mac would be equal to a larger processor on a PC. This is just one comparison that shows the speed difference done by Popular Mechanics. http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...25.html?page=1

You get more bang for your buck with external memory, so buy a computer with the features you need (built in video camera, mat screen or whatever suits your purpose) and go with relatively low RAM to save some money. With Mac, you can use Time Machine to automatically save everything to an external hard drive.

I agree that Iphoto is not a professional photo editing program, nor is it intended to be. It's a photo storage and handling program that allows users to use simple editing tools while maintaining the original image. If you want to get rid of the effects you have added you can reverse the process at the click of a button. With Photoshop you need to save the original as a separate file. Most Mac users use Adobe Photoshop to edit photos, and Adobe Bridge to store them while editing between the other Adobe design programs (Illustrator, Flash, Dreamweaver, In Design). Most photographers, film editors and design people use Mac machines for their speed, reliability, versatility, cost effectiveness and longevity.

If you are running inventory programs and building spread sheets, by all means buy a PC, but if you want to avoid hard disk crashes, slow processing due to viruses, and having to pay for software updates then buy a Mac.

um, yourt report you showed had results in the opposit. the desktop test the mac had the fastest cpu, the laptops they were all the same. but everyone know vista is speed limited so why would some one even compare program opening times. but in the context of that article I opened my adolb photoshop on my desktop with 8 other programs running. a good mix ie, word, exel, access, power point, outlook, windows media playing mp3's and a couple other hoile games of the wifes which I hate as they are huge processor power users and she always leaves them running.. took 15 seconds to open with a 8Mp RAW file so I realy don't know where they got there 40 seconds but who knows what MB they had or any of that.

I think that is one area I would agree that macs can be a little better than PC. because Mac controls all the parts for there computers, ie.. there is one mother board for this model, not the 15 different MB for a model of PC desktop they car more consistant. I can line up 15 desktops and get 15 different results in speed, reliability, ect.. depending on the combanation of parts. so I may have 2 that blow the mac away, but I will have 8 that suck compared to the mac, so you realy have to do your homework and such if you build a PC, where as for a mac... never mind you can't build your own mac :mrgreen:

but you knwo what I am getting at. Mac vs. PC is realy no good unless you have the model numbers of the MB, CPU, RAM, Vid card, and on and on to make sure they are good ones not ones that are knowen not to play nice togeather.. this was a huge problem during the years of win95, Me, win98 as there were so many fly by night companies offering stuff that prommised great things but ended up causing conflicts with everything else. it took me a lot of reasearch to decide which parts to use when I owned my computer business a long time ago. I ended up shutting it down as I didn't have the time or capital to go bigger than a home based business and a couple other compainies in victoria were making the jump from home to storebased but they had the resoarses. but I also provided the highest quality systems for the price of the other companies base models and in 3 years only had 1 warenty issue and it was a keyboard that was warped when I got it.. so thee is a lot to be said about the quality of the parts inside and how they are put togeather and the reliability of the computer.

Steve

That's horrible misinformation.

Hardware is hardware, and while different os's may be able to squeeze small performance increases out of the hardware I don't think you'll see night and day differences. Apple does have a bit of an edge as Stir Crazy pointed out because they standardize everything from the Mobo to the CPU. BUT talking nicely to a cavalier does NOT turn it into a ferrari.

"Relatively Low RAM"? I think you may mean Hard Drive Space? and I would agree if he goes with a desktop as it can ALWAYS be added on to.

"Hard disk crashes, Viruses and paid updates"? I have NEVER had a catastrophic failure on any of my windows machines and this has been discussed exhaustively in this thread already. Viruses, like I posted before... just because no one wants to make a virus that infects only 7% of the computers out there doesn't mean it's more secure. Paid updates? Correct me if I'm wrong but windows XP users are still getting their free updates. I've never paid for an OS update from Microsoft and I don't know anybody who has.


Is this the Imac you're looking at Doug?
http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/produ...baa8b63f96en02

If you compare it to the dell I posted you really can't beat the value on the PC.
2gbs more RAM
Processor was the same
500GB more HDD space
I don't know about the NVidia vs ATI video card
and most importantly $400 less which leaves you cash for Photoshop, the Bamboo pad and some nice coral!

Yeah that was the PC user I used to be. It WAS a lot of fun putting together a nice system but I really think that building a PC *that* way means you're spending more than on a Mac. Fun times tho and a great way to blow all my student loan cash!

actualy one point the cpu's are not the same.. the imac is using the old core2duo, while the speed is the same the through put is lower than the one on the dell site you linked to.. which means you can get more done at the same speed if the software allows it. but it has 4 threads instead of two, it has the new turbo which alows it to burst to 3.5ghz instead of just 3ish.

now from the people I know who have been running windows 7 they are very impressed with it. it is a huge improvment over vista and vista was finaly a good stable operating system.

Steve

here is a Mac I would concider very close to my dell laptop.

http://http://www.futureshop.ca/en-C...43084732d3en02

I have a 320 7200rmp drive as aposed to its 250 5400rpm, I have a higher level video card, the mack gets twice the battery live, which is one thing I have always been amaze of in macs. it has time warp, I have dells version of the back up and the windows vista's two versions. so all in all verry comparable systems as they are the identicle cpu, screen size, both use a one piece aluminum chasse. I have a 1080P screen and a blueray player, apple doesn't have blueray and they don't say if it is a 1080P screen

the apple is 1800.00 right now, I paid 1200 a year ago for mine.. probably would cost under 1K to build it on dells website now. actualy I just built one to see and it was 1018.00 so still a 780.00 differance for the same hardware. and the same types of software. the apple does have bluetooth and firewire, but thats a 15 buck option, and ther apple has 2 USB2 slots, I have 4 plus 2 SATA.

Steve

if you go to a retail store and buy yes... building is more expensive, but in my case I owned a computer company and the prices I got the parts for ended up saving me an average of 500 to 700 bucks for a high end system over what you would have paid for a run of the mill back then. remembr back then a average run of the mill PC cost 2000 to 2400 bucks.

not the 400 to 700 we see now.

Steve

Yeppers. The linked model is nice. I have looked at some, {not Dell}, at both Future Shop & Staples. Still have to then be happy with cords and wires everywhere, same as my current unit. That was the appeal of the iMac but $400 is also important.

Thats the same processor as in the Sony I mentioned for $1199. Just less memory and hard drive. Of course there is that $400 more again as its not on sale anymore. :lol:

So if that case has a sub woofer built in, where,s the speakers? Still external like my current ones?

what about a wireless keyboard and mouse?

Steve

I use those now Steve. Soooooooo much better than wired. But the back is still full of lines to the tower, speaker lines, and a full plug in strip. Its nice and neat and behind the desk, so not a horrific thing or anything. :lol: You would have to see my tiny room/office. Its the large desk and everything I need to be rid of.

I was actually at Staples the other day, looking at smaller neat little desks, in case I do stick with a desktop which I dont think will happen.

:lol: To many choices out there. Much different than when I bought my first used computer way back when. :lol:

thats for sure.. I don't know if personaly I would have just a laptop. I hardly use my desktop but the kids and wife do. I do once and a while just cuz it has a 24" screen so it is nice for playing a game, although I am not realy a gamer I like to play certian ones once and a while.. my current game is "The Witcher" .

personaly I don't use wireless as I used to have one and I noticed a delay in it and that drove me nuts, now new ones are probably better so who knows.. I just find the touch pad a lot better for potability with the laptop.

Have you looked at tablet PC, they are real cook with touch screens and the ability to flip the screen around. if they would have been more available I would probably have one of thoes.

Steve

So really, the only cords you'd save when comparing to a desktop would be the computer speakers right? Hardly seems worth the premium especially if you don't care about portability.

To be fair, the hard disk crashes I touted as being frequent are from ten years ago when I had Windows machines. I agree hardware improvements have probably minimized this. Most of the people I know have Macs and none of them have had a hard disk crash, while a minority of my friends have PCs and I have heard of a few crashes. Yes, of course Vista is the source of many of the problems and viruses will make up for some as well.

Over the past ten years I have had to work on my wife's PCs and pay for repairs. Maybe it's just my good luck with Macs and my wife's bad luck with PCs, but I haven't had to replace anything on any of my Macs with exception to a burnt out wifi card on my current MacBook Pro (I used to leave it on 24/7 and failed to vent it when I use it on my leather laptop cover).

Viruses are a constant issue with PCs, regardless of the motives. The processor speed is better with Snow Leopard and the upgrade from Leopard is only $28.00. I bet there are a few Vista users who wish they could pay that for Windows 7. I get free updates for all Apple software. I was under the impression that this wasn't the case with Microsoft programs.

This review shows the speed comparison.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-31012_7...-10355804.html

Mac computers are more intuitive and therefore easier to use and run more reliably. If you like working on your computer, then the PC is the right choice. If you like working with your computer, Mac is the sensible choice.

If you are a gamer, then Windows is a better OS, no questions asked. I don't play video games, so that wasn't a factor for me.

hmm I have three computers running vista, a desktop that is never shut off, my new laptop which is never shut off, and my old laptop is running it now. never had a problem with anyof them so I don't know how you can say vista is a problem. it is slower than people would like but the most friendlyest software there has been untill win7.

also your test you linked to is garbage, everthing he does in win 7 has to go through a subset of instructions and drivers to make it work with the mac hardware.. thing that might slow it down a bit? the author even says multiple times that it is a unfair test for win 7. you need to start reading things befor you link to them, as all the stuff you have posted so far just show how apple users will fuge numbers to make the apples look way better. wanna see something impressive.. try find a copy of BEOS 5 and install it on your mac, or a PC as it will run properly on any platfor from a clean state. it will make both win 7 and snow lepard look like slugs. problem was BEOS fell victom to Linux Warp OS2 and Win95 advertizing campains but it is still one of the best OSs I have ever played with. only problem is that after spending over 23mill fighting MS in court they went bankrupt.

as for more intuitive.. I guess if you have never had a computer mac might seem more simple.. if you have been using a PC for 20 years it wouldn't.. I found it weird and not very intuitive so that argument is a to each his own and what one person finds simple another doesn't. personaly I don't see how you can get any more simple than clicking on a icon, or if there is a program you don't use very often, you hit start then click on the name of the program.. hmm guess that isn't obvious to some people.


Steve

I think the whole argument is getting silly. Basically, if you can afford the Mac buy it. You won't regret it as it will just work out of the box. If the budget is really a major constraint you should get one of the cheaper Windows machines as it will likely still do the job for you and you will have a few bucks in your pocket.

But to argue that Macs are unreasonably overpriced or the Windows machines are significantly slower is just silly. Neither point is right. You pay a bit more for a Mac to get a better UI and a better integrated and more hassle free system with a bit more useful included software. Windows will work for you too but you will always have more worries with viruses and potential hardware incompatibilities because of the wide variability in hardware in the Windows world. IMO Windows is also far less intuitive and elegant to work with then the Mac OS and you can be more productive on the Mac because of it but I'm sure others will feel differently. It's a matter of opinion.

Both of the links I have given show that the Mac OS is faster than PC. If you challenge their criteria, that is fine with me. I'm not here to convert anyone. It sounds like you enjoy a challenge. Apple will let you down every time if you are looking for a challenge.

And the result is;


http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/produ...baa8b63f96en02

Many thanks to all who contributed to the thread. Hope its helpful to others also.

Steve, you and SF were pretty convincing and I was pretty close to the purchase of the HP I listed before. I stopped in today and the $1300 iMac was on for $1149 plus free $100 set up.

Was just to hard to to say no. :lol: No particular reason. Just appealed to me and what I need.

Now to figure it out and get things transfered. Grabbed a 4g Flashdrive.

You would have been happy with either choice. Enjoy your new computer.

thats not a laptop, I thought you were looking for a laptop?

Steve

Congrats. You will love the iMac. It's a great machine!

Steve. If you remember back a page or two, the iMac was in the equasion as the only alternative to the larger laptops. Thats why SF, linked the Dell desktop in one post.

Although not take anywhere portable like a laptop, you can pick it up and sit it any place in the house with only a power cord to plug in and very light.

FWIW, I am NOT, one of those who will say a product is great just because I bought or own one. And speaking in general here, not just computers, which are not my best subject. :lol: So if it does not live up to the hype, I will say so. And I have owned 5 previous pc desktops to have some comparison with.

So I have 14 days to purchase extended warrenty. 4yrs. @ $300. You guys still figure most problems are in the 1st. yr. anyways.

I would find out what the cost to replace a screen is on it.. if it is way more than the insurance the get the insurance.. after all the screen isn't the magical apple product that will never break down :mrgreen: just kidding..seriously though being a all in one like a lap top is , I would very seriously concider the extended warenty. there are some other benifits to FS watenties also like a preformance guarentee ect.. you never know if you are going to get a power surge or what ever.

Steve

Extended warranties are pretty much established as a rip off and nothing but profit for the seller like Future Shop. Usually if something is going to go wrong it will happen in the first year in which case FS just has it fixed under the manufacturers warranty. Costs them nothing. I would pass or buy Applecare from Apple itself if you really want an extended warranty.

doesn't FS offer apple care? I thought any seller of apple produces would sell apple care. any any rate, my condern isn't with the electronics and guts of the computer.. I won't buy an extended warenty for a computer. but for displays yes.. very common to start getting dead pixels after a year.. so you need to make sure that is covered. but like everything else they are getting better also so it is a judjment call.

Usaly the only extended warenties I buy are on cars, and things I know I am going to abuse or are prone to breakage by there nature which LCD IMHO still are. I also look at a price point.. if I can afford to replace it after a year then I don't buy the warentys, but for example I bought myself a 60" plasma TV for which I did get the warenty but I also got them to give me a deal on it and only paid 60 bucks instead of the 220.00, but it is unlikly you will get a deal on the warenty now as you already bought the computer.. never pay full price for the warenties as like Ron said are a mony making thing for the sales man.. the extra mony over the store cost of the warenty goes directly to the sales man, which is why they push it so hard.

Steve

Re: Mac versu PC,{snicker,snicker}
 

You may be right about Applecare at FS. Just make sure that's what you're getting as the salesman will likely get minimal commision on Applecare. They will push the FS warranty instead.

Also make sure you check the policy on dead pixels if that's your concern. Most companies, Apple included, will consider a certain number of dead or stuck pixels as acceptable and not replace the screen.

Maybe I'm just lucky but I don't think I've ever had a bad pixel on a computer screen or our LCD TV.

+1 to Applecare.

I will check out Apple Care. FS does send the Macs out for repair but not sure to whom. I always add for my cars to Steve. My Focas has a 5yr. platinum warranty. Peace of mind for that time and then I get another anyways. Actually I have only made 4yrs. before. :lol:

On another note. One day in. Trying to re learn everything. Have some transfer done. Impressed so far. Transferred pics to the iPhoto. Wow, ever look nice on the HD screen.
Couple little things kind of irritating compared with Windows.

Have to figure out what can transfer or not. Like is messenger compatible with iChat? Not listed as such but someone told me it was.
Lots of other stuff I have to do by hand almost. :lol:.

Hurry up and get your MSN sorted out I'm sitting here with no one to talk to.
I CANT SPEAK DOUG

Its moved, where are you. :lol:

Keyboard is nice, better than my old one. Magic mouse is great to use. However the laser tracking is not even close to my wireless Logitech. Not even close to the same sensitivity.
Unless I need to adjust something of course. Cant do the same right click thingy as a PC though. :lol:

Many of the other features are a nice addition. Well the ones I have looked at so far.




Oh and the best thing, of course not Mac related but just new computer related. Super fast. :D

Sure you can, just go on into "Mouse" under System Preferences and set the right side of the mouse as the Secondary Button. It's another example of Steve-O stubbornly wanting to be different but then realizing that it's actually very useful.

Or press ctrl + click to get a "right click", as I do with my laptop when I'm not using my Apple Magic Mouse.