I'm pretty much at the point that I really don't see the value of contributing here any longer. People are going to believe what they want. You either trust in science and actual experimental evidence or you don't. I guess that's the end of the story and as much as I could wish that everybody was rational and had the knowledge and education to understand these things like I do that's just not reality. Read the entire fact sheet and look at the results of the trials with the vaccine. Nobody had any severe reactions to this vaccine in all their trials. The few people who did become sick or die were determined to have been from other condition such as diabetes or heart attacks etc. unrelated to the vaccine. That list of side effects you are focussing on is because of lawyers wanting to cover the company in the rare chance something like that does happen. Have a look at any vaccine or drug and you will see similar lists of potential side effects. But the odds of them occurring are extremely low. Are they impossible? No. If millions of doses are administered will there be 100% of people with no serious reactions? Probably not. But I am pretty much 100% certain that the incidence of severe reactions will be a few per million doses. That may be little comfort to you if you are one of those few in a million but I would rather be protected then at much higher risk of getting H1N1 because I'm afraid of some unlikely adverse reaction. If I thought like that I would be afraid to leave the house because there is a very slight, however unlikely, chance I will be run over crossing the street.

To those who think "natural"products are safer then drugs and vaccines I think you need to really do more research. The majority of our drugs came from natural sources but we can administer them in pure forms and controlled dosages based on clinical trials in thousands of people. Natural products do not have such controls or restrictions yet. And I could tell you stories such as a weight loss tea from China somebody was wanting to import to the U.S. Turned out it was laced with synthetic amphetamines which acted as an appetite suppressant.

Also, so called "organic" products can actually be more toxic to you then things grown at conventional farms. Mother nature has devised many natural toxins far more potent and harmful then anything we can come up with which are often found in higher concentrations in organic foods.

Anyhow, if anybody wants to discuss any of the science behind the H1N1 virus or vaccines etc. I'll be happy to try to answer what questions I can. The rest of the debate is a bit pointless to me.

Oh, and about aspartame. Don't get me started on that stupid debate. The amount of formalin generated by the metabolism of aspartame is no more then would be generated eating any other proteins because that is just what aspartame is. It is two amino acids linked together that happen to taste sweet. You would have to eat something like 30 pounds of pure aspartame to reach toxic levels of formalin. Again, this is people freaking out because they see that aspartame is broken down into formalin. Oh my god! But nobody asks how much and how that is detoxified in your body etc. You need to dig deeper into things before coming to conclusions. Aspartame IS completely safe in any amounts that anyone will reasonably consume.

Now look...you've got me started again...:smile:

Had the virus, not that big a deal. I would be more concerned about the results of the 1976 innoculation done for H1N1. There were some rather crappy side effects then. Not to mention the lack of testing done on this innoculation. So my question is, did everyone sell their stocks when the Media ruined our economy a year ago? Its just another thing the Media blows out of proportion, the economy is recovering nicely (in canada anyway) and they need something else to scare people with. Hundreds of thousands die each year from the regular flu. a couple hundred die from this virus and its a "epidemic" Let the sheep follow... :rolleyes:

If everyone felt like you your "victemless crime" would hurt millions of people. I used to work in accounting and received lots of government garnishment orders for people avoiding taxes, not one went to jail they just had to start paying what they owed like every other Canadian. You state it as a fact that people in Canada are jailed "all the time" for not paying taxes. Lets see some back-up of this, what percentage of tax evaders get sent to jail instead of having to pay. You said so yourself it costs money to put these people in jail and the gov't wants the money not more debt load, your claim makes no sense. If you feel things are so wrong and corrupt here, the government is out to get you and things are better elsewhere, then Canada has a right that every Canadian is entitled to, the right to leave. Just the fact that we can post messages like this without punishment should tell you something. No ones forcing anybody to take the H1N1 vaccine it is personal CHOICE not a requirement. If you don't want the shot then don't get it, it's that simple.

Statistics say your more likely to die from the common flu than from swine flu.
Personally I think there is alot more risk driving here in Edmonton than the H1N1!:lol:

Last year in Edmonton there were 21 traffic fatalities. There is about 1 million people in the greater Edmonton area so statistically there is only about a 21 in a million chance of dying in a car accident here. Should I take out the car seats for my 2 girls and stop making them wear seat belts? Statistics aren't very comforting if you or a loved one is one of the 21. As a parent it is my responsibility to do everything I can to protect my family and if putting on a seat belt lessens the risk to 1 in million then I will do it. I personaly would never base a decision on statistics because if you are the unlucky one then the statistical rate is 1:1.

I also finding this discussion becoming tedious so I think this will be my last contribution. It is truly unfortunate that there are people who continue to hold views in light of evidence to the contrary. A few last comments.

This how you do journal research in science. There is a tool called MEDLINE (Medical Literature Analysis and Retrieval System) which allows you to do a search in about 5000 scientific journals.

Searching H1N1 vaccine, I get 1217 journal references for h1n1 vaccine - 46 for the month of October alone. You would then have to go to a university biomedical library to read these articles as they are subscription based and very few are available for free.

Other searches yield about 3500 references for H1N1 and 3000 for H5N1 on which the Arepanrix vaccine was based upon.

This are the risks directly from the vaccines' patient information sheet.

Very common (may occur with more than 1 in 10 doses): Pain at the injection site, Headache, Fatigue, Redness or swelling at the injection site, Shivering, Sweating, Aching muscles, joint pain
Common (may occur with up to 1 in 10 doses):Reactions at the injection site such as bruising, itching and warmth, Fever, Swollen lympth nodes, Feeling sick, diarrhea
Uncommon (may occur with up to 1 in 100 doses): Dizziness, Generally feeling unwell, Unusual weakness, Vomiting, stomach pain, uncomfortable feeling in the stomach or belching after eating, ability to sleep, Tingling or numbness of the hands or feet, Shortness of breath, Pain in the chest, Itching, rash, Pain in the back or neck, stiffness in the muscles, muscle spasms, pain in extremity such as leg or hand
Rare (may occur with up to 1 in 1000 doses): Allergic reactions leading to a dangerous decrease of blood pressure, which, if untreated, may lead to shock. Doctors are aware of this possibility and have emergency treatment available for use in such cases, Fits, Severe stabbing or throbbing pain along one or more nerves, Low blood platelet count which can result in bleeding or bruising
Very Rare (may occur with up to 1 in 10,000 doses): Vasculitis (inflammation of the blood vessels which can cause skin rashes, joint pain and kidney problems), Neurological disorders such as encephalomyelitis (inflammation of the central nervous system), neuritis (inflammation of nerves) and a type of paralysis known a Guillain-Barré Syndrome

Most of the side effects are what you would expect with any vaccination - pain, bruising and swelling. I would expect the list of rare side effects is there for legal reasons so someone could not say they were uninformed.

For comparison, here is a list of possible side effects from the information sheet for Alka Seltzer: nausea, vomiting, ringing in ears, diminished hearing, confusion, agitation, lethargy, fever, coma, respiratory alkalosis, metabolic acidosis, convulsions, pulmonary edema, cardiovascular collapse.


One last word on Aspartame. A medline search of 111 references regarding Aspartame toxicity gives us the publicly accessible reference. Note the last line in the abstract - Aspartame is safe!

Crit Rev Toxicol. 2007;37(8):629-727.

Aspartame: a safety evaluation based on current use levels, regulations, and toxicological and epidemiological studies.
Magnuson BA, Burdock GA, Doull J, Kroes RM, Marsh GM, Pariza MW, Spencer PS, Waddell WJ, Walker R, Williams GM.

Burdock Group, Washington, DC, USA. bmagnuso@umd.edu

Aspartame is a methyl ester of a dipeptide used as a synthetic nonnutritive sweetener in over 90 countries worldwide in over 6000 products. The purpose of this investigation was to review the scientific literature on the absorption and metabolism, the current consumption levels worldwide, the toxicology, and recent epidemiological studies on aspartame. Current use levels of aspartame, even by high users in special subgroups, remains well below the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and European Food Safety Authority established acceptable daily intake levels of 50 and 40 mg/kg bw/day, respectively. Consumption of large doses of aspartame in a single bolus dose will have an effect on some biochemical parameters, including plasma amino acid levels and brain neurotransmitter levels. The rise in plasma levels of phenylalanine and aspartic acid following administration of aspartame at doses less than or equal to 50 mg/kg bw do not exceed those observed postprandially. Acute, subacute and chronic toxicity studies with aspartame, and its decomposition products, conducted in mice, rats, hamsters and dogs have consistently found no adverse effect of aspartame with doses up to at least 4000 mg/kg bw/day. Critical review of all carcinogenicity studies conducted on aspartame found no credible evidence that aspartame is carcinogenic. The data from the extensive investigations into the possibility of neurotoxic effects of aspartame, in general, do not support the hypothesis that aspartame in the human diet will affect nervous system function, learning or behavior. Epidemiological studies on aspartame include several case-control studies and one well-conducted prospective epidemiological study with a large cohort, in which the consumption of aspartame was measured. The studies provide no evidence to support an association between aspartame and cancer in any tissue. The weight of existing evidence is that aspartame is safe at current levels of consumption as a nonnutritive sweetener.

:sick: It's too late for me I think....

i dont know the % and personally i don't care when it comes to taking peoples freedoms there is no 99.9% of the time is good enough. but that's a personal belief. however, here is the facts from my good pals at CRA
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/nwsrm/rlss/...80123-eng.html
"26 offenders to more than 37 years in prison. Sentences for those who were ordered to serve jail time for tax-related offenses ranged from 1 month to 3 years."
owch, personally i don't think that's worth it. no one should be jailed for tax evasion considering no harm was technically done.


since your an a accountant i'm sure how you can see these costs can add up.
(37 years jail time) X ($25,000 per year to jail an inmate.)= $925,000 / (26 people imprisoned) = ~35,000 per person. what amount of tax collection from these people will justify their imprisonment to you?

i feel that our government has not been looking out for citizens like it should for a long time. what makes you think i would leave such a beautiful country, , what it stands for, and our constitution / bill of rights?. do you believe in freedom of speech and do you think that is part of what Canada is all about?
there is nothing wrong with question income taxes. especially since direct taxation by the federal government used to be unlawful , again.... history. before ww1, no income tax, after ww1 income tax. basic high school history at that.

i agree our freedom of speech is intact and a wonderful thing. it however it being intact today could mean many things though.
i never said or remember anyone who said the h1n1 vaccine is a requirement... that definition/example was given to help illustrate how the government doesn't really care about the welfare of its people not suggest they are willing to extort us to take vaccines.

i won't. just like i wont stop with the truth bullets. :mrgreen:

This thread is becoming a bit pointless with all the bickering & the tangents in which some people are headed.

The point is a gathering of thoughts & opinions on the H1N1 Virus & it's associated Vaccines.

Scientific data, conspiracy theories, news reports, personal experiences count for more than arguments about tax collection & not so subtle side swipes & insults towards each other.

I obviously have no moderator authority here, but I did start this thread & politely ask that it stays on topic so it can remain a useful point of info/interest, and I also ask that it remains friendly.

Nobody wants anything bad to happen to any of us or our loved ones, hence the big debate. But knocking someone else's beliefs with insults isn't nice whether it's religion, politics or swine flu we're talking about.

Please keep an open mind & be safe.

Thanks.

Sermon over! :mrgreen:

.

NO Ron, we need you! i was really hoping as an actual scientist you would have something scientific for me that proves that this swine flu vaccine is safer the the last one....
why? all i have been asking for is some real facts, or for someone to say "it's this study, done by this place that proves its safer then the last swine flu vaccine just go look it up".

what evidence?
but not facts? just comments?

that's nice...... have you done this? so there is 3500 references for h1n1 did you read any of them?


you know what else the "PRODUCT INFORMATION LEAFLET" says:
"Among Arepanrix™ H5N1 or Pandemix™ H5N1 recipients, five (<0.1%) had fatal serious adverse events, including two instances of ovarian carcinoma, a metastatic malignancy of unspecified type, a myocardial infarction, and exacerbation of diabetes mellitus and hepatic cirrhosis. Among placebo recipients, three (0.1%) sustained fatal serious adverse events one instance of brain neoplasm, one instance of cardiomegaly secondary to chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and one instance of bilateral pneumonia. During six months of follow-up for the entire group of 9,873 Arepanrix™ or Pandemrix™ H5N1 recipients, 7 (<0.1%) reported an Adverse Event of Special Interest as defined by EMEA. Four subjects reported facial palsy (Bell’s palsy) at intervals ranging from hours to 135 days after vaccine exposure; all of these resolved spontaneously and completely. A 45 year old male had an anaphylactic reaction to food six (6) days after first exposure to H5N/AS03 vaccine, and a 25 year old white female had a single episode of convulsions 35 days after the second dose. None of these Adverse Events of Special Interest was assessed as treatment-related by the investigators. One 48 year old female had “neuritis” with onset almost immediately after injection. Symptoms were localized entirely to the injected arm and compatible with a perineural injection injury; the problem resolved spontaneously. Eleven of 9,873 (0.1%) Arepanrix™ or Pandemrix™ H5N1 recipients were reported to have potential immune-mediated diseases. Diagnoses included two instances of psoriasis, four instances of polymyalgia rheumatica (all in 59 to 84 year-old women, three of whom had symptoms antedating vaccine), and one instance each of Grave’s disease, uveitis, scleroderma, isolated IVth nerve palsy, and erythema nodosum. None of these was assessed as a serious adverse event or as related to the investigational vaccine by the investigators."

"Pain at the injection site was the most commonly reported solicited local symptom in both Arepanrix™ H5N1 and placebo groups and was reported at a 6-fold higher frequency (i.e. following 73% of doses) in the Arepanrix™ H5N1 group. Despite the high incidence of injection site pain, the incidence of severe pain was low, with reports occurring after 2.7% of Arepanrix™ H5N1 doses and 0.4% of placebo doses. Overall, severe solicited or unsolicited adverse events of any type occurred in the 7 days after 6.4 to 7.0% of Arepanrix™ H5N1 doses and 3.6% of placebo doses. The most common severe solicited adverse event was local injection site pain; all severe general solicited adverse events occurred after <2% of doses.
Other/Additional adverse reactions reported are listed according to the following frequency classification:
Very common (≥1/10)
Common (≥1/100 to <1/10)
Uncommon (≥1/1,000 to <1/100)
Rare (≥1/10,000 to <1/1,000)
Very rare (<1/10,000)
Not known (cannot be estimated from the available data)
Blood and lymphatic system disorders
Common: lymphadenopathy
Psychiatric disorders
Uncommon: insomnia
Nervous system disorders
Uncommon: dizziness, paraesthesia
Ear and labyrinth disorders
Uncommon: vertigo
Respiratory, thoracic and mediastinal disorders
Uncommon: dyspnoea
Gastrointestinal disorders
Common: nausea, diarrhoea
Uncommon: abdominal pain, vomiting, dyspepsia, stomach discomfort
Skin and subcutaneous tissue disorders
Common: pruritus
Uncommon: rash
Musculoskeletal and connective tissue disorders
Uncommon: back pain, musculoskeletal stiffness, neck pain, muscle spasms, pain in extremity
General disorders and administration site conditions
Common: injection site reactions (such as bruising, pruritus, warmth)
Uncommon: asthenia, chest pain, malaise"

have you even read the information sheet? they are not in there for insurance or legal reasons.

whats the chances? 1 in 10? 1 in 1000? 1 in 100000000? and i don't ever remember anyone saying "here kids take an alka-seltzer just in case!"

from personal experience i know aspartame to be toxic. i know way to many people who had serious and often quite unusual or rare health problems mysteriously disappear without any treatment, just by removing usually either diet soda, or gum from their diet. i have seen many studies for and against it. many say it may have something more to do with the breakdown ingredients of Aspartame that greatly increase in concentration when stored at high temperatures. in my mind this one is still very much up in the air.

Okay we'll here is what i know is the TRUTH!!!!

This gives the word "flu" a whole new meaning. I have had the "normal" seasonal flu and ya it sucks. But THIS is a whole new world. I can tell you exactly the min it hit me. And it hits you like a semi truck from min one and doesn't let up for at least a week.I was laid out for 10 days and i still get tired easily and still have the cough etc. I spent 300 in antibiotics and had to take 11 days off of work. I exposed my children and husband and pray that they dont get it as i was to sick to get them out for there shots. I had to struggle to breath and i ran a fever of 40-41.5 for 5 days. I couldn't sleep and i couldn't eat and my chest has never felt that bad from not coughing. I had to go back to the urgent care 5 days into it for new medication and just sitting in a waiting room is hard work.
I SHUDDER at the thought of some young child getting this. I had a hard time fighting it off and i am healthy. The same goes for the ederly. There is no way they can fight this. I am healthy we take viatmins we eat good. I get a decent amnt of sleep but let me tell you this is not the seasonal flu people.

Yes we all have to make our own decisions based on our own beliefs. But i am here to tell you this is like no other. I would not wish that upon anyone.
I cannot stress how this is unlike the normal "Flu"
Its not its a killer and u don't want it. You don't want your children,spouse,parents to get this. It is a fight from the second you get it.

I normally do not over vaccinate my children or animals for that matter. But this one they WILL get. I could not stand to see them suffer like i did.

Make your own decisions that you feel good about.

antibiotics? that means they were treating you for a bacterial infection, not h1n1? i thought the only thing they could treat flu with was tamaflu because is a virus?
and have you ever tried colloidal silver? its one of natures most powerful antibiotics, and is cheap! it really helped clear up my seasonal flu or whatever this year.



i was to the understanding that even if you get the flu really bad and are down and out for even a few weeks it is technically a good thing every once and a while, as long as you don't die from it. getting the real flu will build your immune system much better then just taking the shot.

I keep reading news reports of so far whatever number of people died of swine flu in the world but there are so many more people dying from regular flu that happens to be strong. Once in a while we get strong flu warnings and stuff and people die from those too, especially young and old. I really don't think the swine flu is as bad as the media makes it out to be, but I'm not a licensed physician so it's just a personal opinion. A couple of days ago I read an article saying that most people that had the swin flu and recovered said that it was like a normal flu. Not sure if it was a reliable source tho. I think the best thing to do is wash when you get home and eat healthy.

Just remember this: VACCINATION DOES NOT GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL NOT GET A FLU !!!
Side effect of the vaccine is worse then the flu itself, and they are long term which makes a long term customer to big farma.
Read the actual MSDS on the vaccine and then make your decision before your children take it!
Do your home work, don't trust someone who told you its safe!

So true !

I am a registered nurse and refuse to get the vaccine for seasonal flu and H1N1 for myself and my family.
I have always been opposed to the seasonal flu shot and I have always believed that "getting the real flu will build your immune system much better then just taking the shot.", as stated before in this thread.
I personally know several people that have had H1N1 flu and from what I have been told it was the most mild flu experience these people have ever had. If you have had the flu this season you have more than likely had H1N1.
You do not take antibiotics for the flu as it is a virus. So, if you have been terribly ill and have been prescribed antibiotics it is not the flu or is a combination of the flu and something else.
If you want to stay healthy in the winter take vitamin D and C.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15ycdbSsnAU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--NqqB2nhBE

Doctors and Health Professionals Warning Citizens NOT To Take Swine Flu Vaccine - Very Dangerous
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s2Aq1ZbXtw

Some info from 60 minutes about the swine flu of 1976.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/670.html

Do NOT Let Your Child Get Flu Vaccine -- 9 Reasons Why
from http://www.mercola.com/
1.The swine flu is simply another flu. It is not unusually deadly.
2.This is the first time both seasonal and pandemic flu vaccines will be administered. Both seasonal flu and swine flu vaccines will require two inoculations. This is because single inoculations have failed to produce sufficient antibodies. This is an admission that prior flu vaccines were virtually useless. Can you trust them this time?
3. Adjuvants are added to vaccines to boost production of antibodies but may trigger autoimmune reactions. Some adjuvants are mercury (thimerosal), aluminum and squalene. Why would you sign a consent form for your children to be injected with mercury, which is even more brain-toxic than lead?
4.This is the first year mock vaccines have been used to gain FDA approval. The vaccines that have been tested are not the same vaccines your children will be given.
5.Over-vaccination is a common practice now in America. American children are subjected to 29 vaccines by the age of two. Meanwhile, veterinarians have backed off of repeat vaccination in dogs because of observed side effects.
6.Modern medicine has no explanation for autism, despite its continued rise in prevalence. Yet autism is not reported among Amish children who go unvaccinated.
7.Researchers are warning that over-use of the flu vaccine and anti-flu drugs like Tamiflu and Relenza can apply genetic pressure on flu viruses and then they are more likely to mutate into a more deadly strain.
8.Most seasonal influenza A (H1N1) virus strains tested from the United States and other countries are now resistant to Tamiflu (oseltamivir). Tamiflu has become a nearly worthless drug against seasonal flu.According to data provided by the Centers for Disease Control, among 1148 seasonal flu samples tested, 1143 (99.6%) were resistant to Tamiflu!
9.Public health officials are irresponsible in their omission of any ways to strengthen immunity against the flu. No options outside of problematic vaccines and anti-flu drugs are offered, despite the fact there is strong evidence that vitamins C and D activate the immune system and the trace mineral selenium prevents the worst form of the disease.

Good luck.

My wife is a nurse who works in hospital and she knows nothing more about H1N1 vaccinations than anyone else in the general public. She had to get all of her info the same way everyone else does. Just because someone is in the medical field doesn't mean they are research scientists or are vaccine experts by any means. Medical doctors prescribe the drugs and nurses administer it, they don't develop it.

Agreed, I have been answering questions from over 1200 nurses, physicians, residents, staff and students over the past 4 days. While some are more knowledgeable that others, the level of knowledge among those in the health care field varies greatly (not surprisingly).

What is interesting is learning why health care professionals people decide to take the shot and why they feel it is not necessary.

From a professional perspective, I feel there is no good, responsible reason for a front line health care worker to not get the shot given the high risk nature of the service they provide.

Another videos posted by this youtube user:

October 27 - AIDS Virus Deliberately Put In Vaccines For Depopulation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtLi8isr-AY

Spoiler: The Freemasons did it, my grandpa and his drinking buddies are evil.

I disagree. Here a lot of good reason why not to get the vaccine.
H1N1 Vaccine ingredients:

aluminum hydroxide
aluminum phosphate
ammonium sulfate
amphotericin B
animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
dog kidney, monkey kidney,
chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
calf (bovine) serum
betapropiolactone
fetal bovine serum
formaldehyde
formalin
gelatin
glycerol
human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
hydrolized gelatin
monosodium glutamate (MSG)
neomycin
neomycin sulfate
phenol20red indicator
phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
potassium diphosphate
potassium monophosphate
polymyxin B
polysorbate 20
polysorbate 80
porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
residual MRC5 proteins
sorbitol
sucrose
thimerosal (mercury)
tri(n)butylphosphat e,
VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
washed sheep red blood cells

Just because some of us are healthcare workers doesn't mean that we should have all this **** injected in our bodies. There is virtually no evidence that vaccines work in the first place.

HOLY CRAP PEOPLE. STOP BEING STUPID!!!

Sorry to yell and be rude but honestly, use your heads. Most of the stuff below is not in the vaccine and I have no idea where you come up with lists like that. The ingredients in the vaccine are clearly listed on GSKs documentation that has been linked to at least twice in this thread.

And where the hell do you come to the conclusion that there is no evidence that vaccines work? Really? You actually believe that? I suppose we are all dropping dead of small pox? How many cases of the mumps are seen nowadays? In case you don't know the incidence has dropped 99% since routine vaccination started. Seriously. If you want to make comments like that then you have to provide some links to actual evidence it is true. You have all been provided links to actual information that you can check yourself. But you would rather believe a youtube video made at a holistic medicine conference that contains nothing but a bunch of sound bites and no actual information. Who are these people in the video? Let's see their credentials? What is their area of expertise? Are they experts in virology and immunology? If I made a video telling you that you should't eat spinach because it's bad for you and will do more harm then good will you believe me? Or maybe I believe that to much calcium in your system may cause cardiac problems and if you don't want your fish to die you better remove all calcium from your tank water or they might have heart attacks? You'll all just take my word for it right? If you have actual evidence or data supporting any of the nonsense in this thread then please produce it.

Sorry, but this hysteria and completely wrong information is really annoying me. I am all for legitimate debate with actual data and information. Not a bunch of completely incorrect nonsense that has no basis in reality.

Last thing from me on this subject. I have many friends and acquaintances that have not vaccinated their children, all of which are doctors and nurses in Canada and the USA. I have 15 years of acute care hospital nursing experience, 5 years in the USA. If that fact doesn't make you think twice about vaccines, you are stupid. Go get the vaccine. OK. I am out of this one.

All I know is the health care and pharmaceutical industries are profitable industries and driven by the same motives as pretty much every other industry. For this reason I wouldn't trust them anymore than most other industries out there so I do my own research and come up with my own conclusions which is something we should all do.

I actually have one more thing to add which is that I find the results from the poll to be quite interesting.

The way I see it as of right now 21 (10%) people are undecided, 81 (40%) people are for the flu shot and 102 (50%) are against it.

This seems about average, half and half on each side of the argument however I always like to consider the Milgram Experiment in these types of polls because the media and majority of health care are pushing for one side of the argument. Many of us consider the information provided by both these sources to be accurate so in a way we look at these sources as a type of authority. The Milgram Experiment demonstrated that the presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance to the point where over 50% of people will do what they are told by such an authority figure even if it means harming other people.

This combined with less than 50% of people voting in favor of the vaccine is what I find interesting. I'm not saying what my personal conclusions are exactly, I'm just saying it's interesting.

By the quality of your posts and supporting arguments you may very well have left readers assuming you got all C's in high school, then straight off to college to become a nurse...this of course may not be the case. Perhaps re-read the quote below...

Well put - read a lot, think for yourself.

Sorry to sound harsh, but so what? What is your knowledge and experience in virology, epidemiology, immunology and pharmaceutical sciences? I have found many instances of knowing more than doctors and nurses do on various subjects. That's not a jab but reality. Science and medicine is an incredibly complex and extensive area and there is no way one person can be an expert on all things. As primary health care workers your focus is generally on patient care and not on understanding the minutiae of the science behind all the various the treatments.

The list you posted is grossly inaccurate and incredibly misleading. Most of those substances are not part of the H1N1 vaccine. Not even close. You obviously don't understand alot of this as most lay persons don't. So let me give you a small science lesson. Let's use the mercury issue as an example. See the following diagram:

http://hotimg25.fotki.com/a/70_70/254_23/Hg-vi.jpg

Now notice the very different structures of these molecules. Do you think they will all have the same effects in your body? No, they don't. Most pharmacological and toxicological effects are due to the molecule/drug/poison acting on one or more specific receptors in your body. It is like a lock and key and the active molecule (called a ligand) binds to the receptor and activates some process. Now if you imagine the three molecules above as keys do you think they will fit in the same lock?

Also, elimination from your body is also dependent on the structures of these molecules. Comparing methylmercury and thimerosal is a great example of this. The carbon hydrogen bonds in methylmercury make it very fat soluble. That means it gets into fatty tissue and fat deposits and sticks around in there. This is why you get bioaccumulation of methyl mercury in fish which is then passed on to humans when we eat them. Now look at thimerosal. The oxygen molecules make thimerosal much more soluble in water then fat so it stays in your blood stream more readily and is filtered out by you kidneys and you pee it away. Just because a molecule contains a mercury atom in it does not automatically mean it is toxic and will behave the same way other mercury containing molecule will behave.

This is the crux of my problem with this thread. Most of the opinions posted here are just opinions based on incomplete or plain incorrect information. I encourage everybody to ask questions and try to find answers if they have concerns. But look for those answers from reputable sources or knowledgeable people. Ask for actual data or facts to back up those answers. Not just, oh my doctor told me not to. Did you ask your doctor for the reasons for that opinion? Not a bunch of random crap from the internet.

Nobody is disputing that the pharmaceutical industry is not trying to make money. That doesn't mean they are evil or lying. Most people I know in the pharma industry are actually interested in discovering new drugs to treat diseases and make the world better. They do have shareholders and investors to answer to as well so they need to make money in the process. Do you have any idea how much it costs in time and money to develop a new drug? The numbers are larger then anything the vast majority of us will ever see. Regardless, they are also incredibly well regulated. You can't just put whatever you want in a vaccine and then start selling it. You have to account for every component and the safety of each of those components and have to show both animal and human trial results.

Hey I'm not saying they are evil, nor I am taking a general side in this topic, I'm just saying they are just like many other industries like you said. They make large investments in hopes to turn a profit just GM for example. Is GM an evil company? Because this company has preformed life value analysis on many occasions to decide whether it's more profitable to fix a dangerous or faulty component or payout the injury or death claims. This is scary but common practice in almost all large industries and the bigger the investment the more of these types of analysis are preformed. All I'm saying is think for yourself and decide whether something is right or wrong for you which seems to be your general feeling as well. Let's not try and deliberately turn this into an argument.

You shouldn't have wasted all your time posting information in this thread if this was your final point :lol:
Just saying, you have as much credibility here as anyone else and any medical advice posted in a fish forum would probably qualify as random crap on the internet :wink:

Sorry not trying to argue just thought it was funny

CRICKEY! do you work for NASA or something, I should have paid more attention in school, apparently I am stupid, I am suffering with the flu right now, think I am going to go find my hockey helmet and ride the short bus to Wal Mart for some meds.:silly:

No Worries. I don't think I ever said anything was my final point, just that I was getting frustrated and questioning the value of posting here. And I do think that on this subject my many years of work in both medical microbiology and pharmaceutical R&D makes my opinions somewhat more credible then some of the contributors here. You wouldn't ask your accountant for medical advice or your doctor for tax advice would you? I do have knowledge and experience that is directly relevant to the discussion. I'm also trying to post scientifically accurate information so people can make an informed choice rather then relying on fear and the huge volume of misinformation making the rounds.

What might be more useful is for people to post legitimate questions here such as "should I be concerned about the mercury in this vaccine?" which could then be constructively answered as I did above. But just getting on here and posting things like "the vaccine has mercury in it so I'm not taking it and you shouldn't either" is not only unhelpful it is actually harmful and foments more fear and uncertainty without actually informing people or addressing legitimate concerns.

I just think it is also maybe wrong to mistrust the vaccine automatically because you mistrust the pharma industry, along with most other industries. I think that is doing yourself a great disservice. It might be better to focus on the specifics of this case and ask yourself, what are the risks to me from contracting H1N1? What are the risks to society from an uncontrolled H1N1 pandemic? What are the risks to me associated with taking the vaccine? All I would like to see is a rational discussion supported by facts and evidence rather then the hysteria and misinformation that seems to prevalent.

No, you're not stupid. Probably just studied other things in school :smile: I don't work for NASA but I do work in pharmaceutical R&D and was educated in pharmacology and toxicology. So I'm an egghead who happens to know about this stuff. But don't ask me to build a rocket :lol:

Mistrust was never mentioned by me, so you must be assuming I mistrust them which I'm certainly not saying is the case. I'm just saying you can't necessarily trust such companies more than you would other companies. A human life is a human life and many companies make products which in some way can affect that.
Those are good questions and I assure you I've considered all of them and I'm not in the least bit concerned because I've done and am doing what I believe is necessary to keep myself healthy and safe. I was never concerned about the H1N1 and I was even in Mexico at the height of the scare last spring. In addition I've never once had the flu, my methods and reasoning however are based on my own findings and beliefs and I don't see how stating them benefits anyone else. You got to do somethings by yourself, I would never offer medical advice since I'm not a doctor and doing so would be unethical from my point of view.

I wonder what the results of the same poll would be today?

Only 69 said YES, not 81. :) 12 people already had H1N1 so they won't need the shot. OK, I suppose its fair to assume those people would vote YES. :)

Just trying to simplify. Either way it doesn't really matter, the results are still very interesting from my point of view.

For those who distrust big Pharma, did you know Boiron, the french company that makes the 2 most popular popular homeopathic flu treatments - Oscillococcinum and Influenzinum employs thousands of people, is in 59 countries and had sales of 740 million Canadian dollars.

Oscillococcinum is an extracted from duck liver and heart and Influenzinum from the snot of flu sufferers. Both are diluted to the point where no molecules from the extract remain.

A homeopathic treatments company can hardly be compared to real pharma companies and these cannot be compared to vaccines. Please try again:biggrin:

Personally I would take this poll with a grain of salt as it is hardly a scientifically or statistically well set up poll. I would guess a number of the people who voted for a conspiracy did so tongue in cheek.

Fair enough. I think it is important to remember that the pharma industry is one of the most heavily regulated ones around. Far more then car companies. If there were a problem with a drug or vaccine that came to light then it would and should be re-examined and could likely be pulled from the market. This has happened several times in the past. there is much closer scrutiny of drugs than any other product I can think of.

Oh no arguing that point. What I meant was I wonder how the public feels about the vaccine now that we have had a week of media hype and some dead children.

Iv deffinitly changed my mind over the past 2 weeks. 2 weeks ago I was totaly against my kids having the vaccine. I thought it was a new vaccine (Its not) And i thought that it had not had enough time to be tested long term possible side affects. I partialy changed my mind after seeing the tv special that showed how it affected Australia during their flu season and how many pefectly healthy people the H1N1 killed their. Not to mention how many people it has killed here. So many people think its only really affecting people with underlying health problems but it seems to randomly be hitting perfectly heathy people harder then was originaly expected. I think thats the scary part that people need to look at. No one knows how their body will handle it. I have 2 kids under 5 in my house as well as two teenagers and the highscool my stepdaughter goes to has had many kids come down with it. They didnt notify anyone or any students. I only found out by calling and asking if any students have had it. I think its in everyones communitys more then people are aware, because its not being broadcast where it is that people have died. I also think that in this day in age with us being so over populated that pandemics are much more easly spread then they were before. I could totaly be wrong on that. But to me more people, means more diseases, more easily spread, that have more access to morphing (is that the word) into becoming much more dangerous strains. So If asked a week or two ago i would have said no to the vaccine, but if asked now Id say yes im getting my kids vaccinated. Though still leary i think i will and am just waiting for the hype to die down before bringing my family in. ( i dont want my kids exposed to anything in a doctors waiting room that has 50 people in it) I also think that people cant base their opinions off of Utube, That seems really silly when their are so many informative sites you could be reading up on.