Actually she did infer that by saying "I would extend my own personal definition of puppy mills to include breeders who produce inventory to stock pet stores."

Since Wolf bred puppies that went to a pet store, that would make them a puppy mill operator by Emily's logic. No?

No, it would not. Wolf is not in the business of producing inventory for pet stores. He did it once, and realized that it wasn't a good idea for the benefit of his pups and did not do it again. He made a mistake. He learned from it.

Also Reef Raf, i noticed you used the phrase "reputable breeder" in your last post. Saying that Wolf may end up being a reputable breeder. According to you this is not possible. Earlier, i tried to get you to clarify your views on the phrase "reputable breeder" by saying....

"So reef_raf, by your rational, no matter the caliber of a dog breeder and the amount of care the put into producing healthy, happy puppies conforming to breed standards, if they sold thier litter to a pet store they would cease to be a reputable breeder? This one feature will erase all other indications of a good reputation?"

You replied to this by saying, "Yes, exactly. Now you're getting my point. Good breeders do not sell to pet shops, they just don't."

So how could Wolf ever become a repuatable breeder having sold his dogs to a Pet Store? You seemed fairly absolute in your statement. I am confused, I do read the posts and you don't seem to make much sense.

Actually, it was posted that the first FEW batches of puppies went to a Pet store. Few usually indicates plural, maybe you should read more closely.

Ok, few. Then he realized it was wrong. Lesson still learned.

And there is the problem. Now, I said a reputable breeder does not sell to pet stores. Wolf sold to pet stores, and that, IMO, disqualifies him as a reputable breeder. He has since stopped doing that. Now my last phrase was that in time, he may or may not become a reputable breeder. If he continues breeding, and gains a good reputation, he could become a reputable breeder. And he no longer sells to pet stores, which meets one of the criteria. While he did sell, then no, he did not meet my definition of "reputable". That can change.
Now please stop trying to twist all of this for the sake of arguing.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread, me and my pound puppy are going for a run at the lake. You and your dogs have a great weekend!! :)

but you agreed that "This one feature will erase all other indications of a good reputation?"

So the reputable breeder vs non-repuatable breeder argument is not as absolute as you would have previously indicated?

did you see my last post?? My dog is bouncing at the door. Gotta run. Agree with me. Don't agree with me. Don't care. Take your dog to the park. Have a great day.

sorry i missed it, have a great weekend. I'm more of a cat person.

ok now
 

Now I have done my research, years of it.
We need to be very careful of the words we choose!
This is an intresting thread. I would like to point out a few things though. When you use the term "puppy mill" you are enpowering a movement of animal rights activists that are lobbying (to be political) for the complete liberation of animals. They made up the term! No more animals of any type in any sort of way are to be kept by humans. No more hamburgers, no more medical advancment, no more guide dogs for the blind, no more puppies in the window, no more FISH, no more CORAL. Everytime you use that term as a way of defining a sub standard breeding facility you are helping to support their mandate.

I would also like to touch on another point quickly. Everyone seems so eager to support the Humane Society (S.P.C.A) As I do as well and I would agree that it is better to have them then not, however the SPCA works with the AFAC (Alberta Farm Animal Care), in an effort with ALPS (Alberta Livestock Protection System) in an effort to HELP feed lots and factory farms in Alberta reconize the importance of husbandry of the animals. Hypocritical? The very idea that they can be associated with this type of industry and yet be looked at as a moral staring point for animal rights folks just blows my mind!

Anyway I am new here and there is tons of cool things in here! Great job!

Take a look at this....even dogs with issues can bring happiness to their owners.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...79276&hl=en-CA

hope this link works

Cats are inferior to dogs.
Cats dig in their litter box and then walk on your food preparation surfaces.

Do you feel like you're banging your head on a wall, I know I would if I was you! I hoped you had a nice walk with your dog, and thanks for stating the obvious.

Well, according to most "certified" beeders I was a puppy mill. There seems to be a lot of resentment between "backyard" breeders and CKC breeders.
But, the last time I was at a CKC breeder, they had multiple dogs, and did breed the dogs for the MONEY. However I have also seen a real "puppy mill". There were 10 dogs being bred and cross bred. the puppy's we fed the minimal amount of food to keep them alive, ya know, to cut costs down.

Outside of papers, what is all that different between puppy mills and registered breeders --- intent and love for the animals. The puppies we bred always had enough food and attention that they were not aggressive.
The mother of our pups did come "rescued" from a mill. She always fought over food (when there is not enough, dogs will fight over it).

The only reason we stopped selling to the pet store is that with Chihuahua's there is quite a selection of owners to pick from (one has a little helmet and leather jacket to ride on her Harley with her).

There was responsible genetic/family tree selection involved with breeding, almost all the owners we sold to are aware of who in this city are "family" and who not to breed with. However, we routinely run into people that ask to breed with the male that we had (passed away now), without asking about family history. They even seem to get upset when we tell them that they really should not breed bother and sister together.

We bred because raising puppies is an enjoyable hobby, after 5 batches the mother "retired".

With all that said, once you have actually SEEN a puppy mill you will be much more careful about what you call one. They are a disturbing sight, and yes there is places that have stacks of cages with dogs that are allowed out only to breed, and the food is in short supply. Compared to this, I would NEVER call your average backyard breeder a puppy mill.

BTW, usually puppy mills will bring the dogs away from "home" to show them, because if you see where they are raised, not only would you not buy from them, but call the SPCA as well. Always ask to see the dogs and the parents as well when buying a dog.

And "certified" breeders calling backyard breeders "puppy mills" is just propaganda to keep their prices and profit up. How is that intent any different than the puppy mills other than a piece of paper.

The bottom line is that puppy mills are in fact rare. Stores will not by from them, most people will not either without some scam (having the dogs at a different house to show, bringing the dogs to you, etc.) The way to stop them is pretty much what we all do -- stop buying from them.
And the main point I was trying to make is that OWNERS sometimes treat their pets no better than the mills. That is why we stopped selling to the stores. Not because the stores we behaving badly, but because they really are unable to "screen" those that buy.

Dog's eat their own, and other animals feces, then think its okay to lick your face. I'd have to say both cats and dogs have their flaws.:wink:

This is why you coat the counters with honey and powdered habeneros or other hot as hell concoctions... little buggers learn real quick, got so sick of the damn cats jumping on the counters the second you turn your back, and they damn well know they are not allowed to cuz when you turn and face them(even with a smile on your face) they run for cover cuz they know they are not supposed to be there. Zeus(my great dane)is not allowed to enter the kitchen, and I can put a steak on the floor by his bed and he will stare at it, but he knows its not his to touch unless I say so.....
Im not sure if "cats are inferior to dogs" is the proper statement...???
but they sure are dissobedient,vindictive,sly little buggers ;)
lol!!!!!!

Just as a quick little note, I do NOT consider selling to a pet store to be a mistake. If you read what I posted before, the store DID make a very good effort to ensure we did meet their "requirements" before buying the puppies. And there were very strict.

I bred for the pure enjoyment of it, and it was much more enjoyable to sell the puppies myself. The whole "reputable" breeder thing is just a people that forked over MONEY, to become certified trying to protect their investment. What makes a reputable breeder?
One that raises dogs because they love them? My wife cried every time one of the babies left, and usually followed up with the owner. Does a registered breeder love their dogs? or are they all about proft just like the puppy mills, just with fancier cages?

Reputable!?! Reputation? iIf you have a reputation, then you have been doing it long enough that you look at the dogs as MONEY!

You can train a dog to not lick, Zeus knows not to lick you anywhere! I love cats and dogs, but dogs are more my style....

You prepare food on the floor? :neutral: I always thought you were an odd one!! :p

I prefer things like stoves and barbeques myself. My cats never walked all over those .. I imagine if they did, they might not do it a second time. :mrgreen:

Them's are definitely fighting words. And I DO hope you're not serious!

What a gorgeous day, even in Calgary. :biggrin:

For those of you telling your stories, cudos. I certainly am not without sin. I have a few cats waiting up there for me for sure.... :wink:

Thirty years ago, things were so different. I lived on a farm too at one time. I did unspeakable things, things that haunt me to this day, but things I had no clue were wrong.

Backyard breeder, hell yah, I let a dog with hip dysplasia breed a dog that wandered into our yard.

So, I was really stupid. Welcome to Southern Alberta, and it doesn't sound like much has changed down there.

The point is, as we become more educated, we just know some choices are better than others. Simply put, we know more now. And THANK DOG for that...

Amen....

Ask not what your dog can do for you... but what you can do for your dog :lol: ... hahaha okay, that was lame of me, but whatever.

I think all pet owners make mistakes, as do ALL breeders. But the difference is between the ones that learn from their mistakes and the ones that keep making those mistakes...


BTW: I'll take my lazy butt sink-lovin fat "inferior" kitty over a "superior" dog any day :D My cats don't jump up on the counters, they don't jump onto the stove, though my lazy cat did like sleeping on top of my cupboards at one time... Heck, my cats even knows what it means when I tell them to "get over here" and they're just like dogs with their tails between their legs and those pitiful eyes staring at me. :wink:

I digress...
http://x21.xanga.com/dfa013f10103517.../m99985002.jpg

But seriously, can't wall just get along? :)
http://xe3.xanga.com/be08057b16c0017.../m70499058.jpg

LOL! Is that the "prerinse cycle" ? :)

tencats, can you let me, and the rest of us know, if Popcorn is adopted, moved, or whatever ? If she goes back to you, I would especially want to know. We pretty much limp around here these days anyway....:lol:

The thread was never about cats. So get your own thread, ummkaaayyyy...:lol: :mrgreen:

this pic reminds me of Zeus, my 200lb Blue Great Dane. He was a surrogate mother to a litter of 3 dwarfed kittens, they licked little bald patches all over his chest trying to nurse on him, he would just wince once in awhile in pain from the rawness, but let them do whatever they wanted, except for wander, if they left the dog/cat bed, he would go and pick them up in his mouth(a nose poking out one side of his jowls,a head out the other)and deposit them back in his bed.Yes my giant manly dog is a bit of a softie...

Re;Three legged do in pet store
 

???

Re;Three legged dog in pet store
 

If the dog is healthy, happy and ready to be adopted then what is the problem..He needs a home
too.

Right, and Emily is continually offering to foster it until a home is found. The "rescue" guy isn't really responding.....
Would be nice if it had a more comfortable temp home, rather than a wire cage.

Oh, and here's some gas for the fire.... My GF and I were talking about rescues, and she was telling me about a certain border collie rescue that will take any dog that the see left in the back of a truck, or tied to a bike rack outside a mall, calling it "abandoned". You come back from buying milk and your dog is gone....nice.

The pup has been in foster, and now she's at the "adoption center" for a couple of weeks. Are you questioning the quality of care she's had with out any real knowledge of the situation? Have you been to my house? Have you been on a rescue? Crawled under a well used outhouse to rescue pups? Dug thru garbage dumps to find kittens before the hungry dogs do? Perhaps we should have left Popcorn in the ditch for the crows, then you'd have nothing to complain about, out of sight, out of mind, right! I haven't responded because I have better things to do (unlike some people), and I don't run the rescue, I just volunteer here. I'll update you on Popcorn's situation when I know more. Thanks for your concern.

The "rescue" chick

I think we can all get a little bent out of shape when we feel like someone is insinuating that we don't want what's best for any particular animal....be that through outright neglect, ignorance, etc. When someone does that from a high horse, it seems even worse.

But I think we can all agree that everyone here believes in the humane and fair treatment of all animals....otherwise we wouldn't put so much time and energy into what we do.

Let's chill. Stare at a lava lamp or listen to some Yanni or something. Or go cuddle some animals at the Humane Society....whatever you gotta do ;)

I'd still like to know what the difference is between the cages that most SPCA/Humane Society's use to house their animals, and the ones used at the pet store?
If Emily B is as concerned as she claims to be, why doesn't she contact the media, that's what I would do. Make some noise!
I'm off to do some yoga now...:wink:

The rescue chick
(I've also been called the 'angel of mercy' lol)

Sorry, not here. Check out the facilities section on this webpage....

http://www.calgaryhumane.ca/

I never once saw a dog in a wire bottom crate even at the old facility.

Animals shouldn't stand on wire bottoms to make it easier for people to clean up.

Ive heard of people and organizations that do this, and I came across someone that was "trying" to untie Zeus from a outside water tap on the restroom at the beach behind the grand hotel in Kelowna. They pulled the same crap saying I abandoned my dog(I was taking a leak in the public restroom) I was gone all of 3-4mins! Holy Crap!!!!! If you ever want to see me angry............I could have went to jail far assult with a smile that day........ He is very lucky the lady he was trying to be a hero in front of was telling him he should leave, and that the dog looked fine. I could rant for hours about animal activists(some of them). Im as protective of my my dog as I am of my son, so if you touch my dog, I will break your legs;)

Note to self: don't touch his dog. :)

Im sure I would open a can of whoopa$$ too if someone tried to do that to my pup. :eek: