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-   -   Water changes (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=83653)

ReefOcean 03-01-2012 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampshade (Post 688411)
You forgot turnover rate, sump size, return size and many other reefing "guidelines" we live by :P
My bad. The list goes on :lol:

Aquattro 03-01-2012 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkoD (Post 688414)
i troll because i refuse to be talked down to by someone with more posts and more "experience". i dont care if i have to be the bad guy. that chitons topic for POTM was stupid, and i have no problem say it
You refuse perfectly good advice, because you're stubborn. And I think the Chiton thing was awesome, Denny is gonna win with a great photo. Now stop hijacking this thread, whatever it's about now :)

Levi, go open a troll thread in the lounge or something.

ReefOcean 03-01-2012 11:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquattro (Post 688416)
For one, it's cost prohibitive. Two, you have to dismantle your tank. but yes, you probably should change rock every 5 years or so, should you actully keep a tank going that long.
Maybe change it every year? Shall I set a standard and spread it around like wildfire...

Change 10 percent of your rock once per year. Set in stone. No debating pls.

tim the toolman 03-01-2012 11:49 PM
I am very new to this hobby (just over a year) so I definitely do not think I am superior nor do I think you are lazy. I just find these circular logic type threads amusing is all. So I will tag along And add my 2 cents as I feel. Not to be argumentative but because I think this site is a wealth of knowledge and information but it can also be a fun way to do a little fish geeking.

MarkoD 03-01-2012 11:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquattro (Post 688412)
Well said. Yes, a tank can be kept without doing water changes. For how long, I'm not sure. Most people don't keep their tank long enough to prove either way. I compare it to feeding my dog. I can feed Purina crap, or a real meat diet. It's well documented that dogs fed real food (or people for that matter) live longer more vigorous lives. I believe the same applies to my reef. If I want an amazing reef, I need to be an amazing reefkeeper, which to me holds certain standards (like changing water). I believe my reef will be amazing for many years because of it.
In all honesty, I don't care who changes water or who doesn't. Someone asked, seeking validation to not do something, I offered my thoughts to hopefully help them make decision. I believe they will have a better reef, for longer, by doing partial and frequent water changes. They can choose to do it or not. If not, no skin off my butt.
But....be honest about why you don't want to change it. Don't make up stuff to validate or hide the fact that you just don't want to expend the effort, or the money for salt. Other than that, I cannot think of any reason why one would not do water changes.
i also dont agree with "never" doing water changes. but doing weekly or biweekly water changes requires a time commitment and the facility to do so (containers)

for me to do a substantial waterchange (50 gallons):

i would have to find a 50 gallon container, wait 24 hours for the RO/DI to fill it up, mix the salt (which i have 1000 gallons worth from boxing day), wait for it to mix.

Then remove everything from my sump, vacuum the detritus, pump out the water.

Then pump the fresh water in, allow the temp to match the water in the display and then turn on the pumps again.

honestly this could take a couple hours. i work a full time job, i run a business, i photograph all nhl home games. on nights when theres a game i leave my house at 8am, work all day at my job, then go straight to the arena to setup for the game and i wont be home till 11:30pm

and on the nights when i do come home at 4 and i have nothing else, i would usually like to hang out with my girlfriend over doing water changes.

ReefOcean 03-01-2012 11:51 PM
So getting off topic here, let's rehash

My point is that if operate your aquarium in a manner where bioload can be efficiently dealt with, water changes can be suspended for months at a time. In an ideal situation (and it has been done) you can suspend water changes for perhaps years.

We pretty much have established a need for dosing but besides that, I have seen no meaningful rebuttals. Except for the fact I am lazy and wrong.

Aquattro 03-01-2012 11:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefOcean (Post 688417)
I still don't see how it is lazy. Because you label it as such?

And true, I have asked for help. Aquattro has giving me advice many times on this forum that i have used and i appreciate it. But that doesn't mean there arent alternatives to look at. It doesn't make you guys my superiors.
Sorry if that's the tone you're reading, it's not my intention. I'm certainly no smarter or wiser than you, maybe I've been doing this a bit longer, but that's it. It's difficult to discuss this in a thread environment, it would be better at the pub where we could yell and stuff :)
There are lots of alternatives to many things, I just believe closed systems have a finite lifespan, and water changes prolong that life. But as I said, most reefers don't keep their tanks setup for that lifespan, so we can't prove this either way.
For me, my fish are my pets. My corals are a huge investment in time and money, and I want to do the very best to keep them as vigorous as I possibly can. I feel I do this best by changing water often. People come to my house and say "wow" a lot, so I figure it's working. But if you're reef is fine, then so be it. It will still probably live longer than you're going to keep it going anyway, statistically. But what I am suggesting is that your fine reef might be even finer if you changed water.

sphelps 03-01-2012 11:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefOcean (Post 688410)
How is dumping a capful of dose into the tank once a month less practical than mixing and lugging around buckets of water?

Liek I said, it started off as a matter of being lazy (or very busy) but now it is a matter of "why?" Why do it if I don't have to.
Because you're only replenishing, what if a certain element isn't being used and you keep adding it, it will become a containment. Water changes not only replenish they also reduce the concentration is anything elevated above norm.

Like others have said it's up to the owner to decide what's best for them. Do some research away from unrepeatable sources claiming this and that and make a decision based on what your believe will produce the most success while keeping the efforts in your comfort zone.

Here's a general link worth reading:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

ReefOcean 03-01-2012 11:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkoD (Post 688423)
i also dont agree with "never" doing water changes. but doing weekly or biweekly water changes requires a time commitment and the facility to do so (containers)
Reasonably so. I have stated as well that I don't disagree with water changes. My point is under the right cicumstances, you don't need to that often.

Aquattro 03-01-2012 11:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefOcean (Post 688421)
Maybe change it every year? Shall I set a standard and spread it around like wildfire...

Change 10 percent of your rock once per year. Set in stone. No debating pls.
Now you're just spouting off. Rock is known to accumulate nutrients over time, contributing to old tank syndrome, just like deep sand beds. I read it on the Internet.
Now it seems to me most, if not all of your questions have been answered, but you don't acknowledge them. We've been debating, and providing rebuttals to your comments (and poking doodles) all day long.

Aquattro 03-01-2012 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefOcean (Post 688427)
Reasonably so. I have stated as well that I don't disagree with water changes. My point is under the right cicumstances, you don't need to that often.
I guess my reasoning is that we cannot measure or account for the right circumstances, so to err on the side of caution, I change water. It's like fresh air to the critters, removes excess nutrients that I can't measure outside a lab, and replaces the things used I didn't even know were there.

Aquattro 03-02-2012 12:00 AM
I have to take a break, my head hurts :) Back later.

ReefOcean 03-02-2012 12:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquattro (Post 688430)
Now you're just spouting off. Rock is known to accumulate nutrients over time, contributing to old tank syndrome, just like deep sand beds. I read it on the Internet.
Now it seems to me most, if not all of your questions have been answered, but you don't acknowledge them. We've been debating, and providing rebuttals to your comments (and poking doodles) all day long.
No, I am not spouting off. I am formulating "techniques" that become "requirements" the same way other reefers do. I am aware of the live rock situation, I am just creating "guidelines" to how to deal with it.


Yes, my question regarding if anybody else does it is answered. Which of course in NO. Why? Because that is what the've been taught by "beginners 101"....

ReefOcean 03-02-2012 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sphelps (Post 688426)
Because you're only replenishing, what if a certain element isn't being used and you keep adding it, it will become a containment. Water changes not only replenish they also reduce the concentration is anything elevated above norm.
If you do a water change, are you not adding that element as well?


Quote:
Like others have said it's up to the owner to decide what's best for them. Do some research away from unrepeatable sources claiming this and that and make a decision based on what your believe will produce the most success while keeping the efforts in your comfort zone.
Here is the thing. I did it myself. I didn't read about it and follow others. There was a decision making process. I weighed the negatives. I tested the parameters and monitored it. I kept the bioload low, and dosed accordingly.

ReefOcean 03-02-2012 12:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquattro (Post 688432)
I guess my reasoning is that we cannot measure or account for the right circumstances, so to err on the side of caution, I change water. It's like fresh air to the critters, removes excess nutrients that I can't measure outside a lab, and replaces the things used I didn't even know were there.
That logic isn't sound. If you can't account for the premise IE water quality, and conclusion IE doing water changes or suspending water changes is moot.

If that is what you mean..

But you can reasonably account for the conditions and circumstances through water testing and monitoring the health of your livestock. You can control the system by limiting bioload and having the proper biological and mechanical filtration in place.

Aquattro 03-02-2012 12:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefOcean (Post 688451)
But you can reasonably account for the conditions and circumstances through water testing and monitoring the health of your livestock. You can control the system by limiting bioload and having the proper biological and mechanical filtration in place.
At the very core of this statement, we disagree. We aren't going to convince each other. Let's revisit in 5 years. :)

sphelps 03-02-2012 12:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefOcean (Post 688449)
If you do a water change, are you not adding that element as well?

Here is the thing. I did it myself. I didn't read about it and follow others. There was a decision making process. I weighed the negatives. I tested the parameters and monitored it. I kept the bioload low, and dosed accordingly.
Really?? not sure I can explain any better, read the link dude, you'll learn something. Until then you're just wasting everyone's time.

ReefOcean 03-02-2012 12:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquattro (Post 688453)
At the very core of this statement, we disagree. We aren't going to convince each other. Let's revisit in 5 years. :)
If you are implying I wont do a water change in 5 years, hell yes I will :lol:

In fact, I was planning to do one this weekened because of salanity loss due to salt creep but I would like to keep the spirit of this alive and will only change 5 gallons.

Aquattro 03-02-2012 12:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefOcean (Post 688458)
If you are implying I wont do a water change in 5 years, hell yes I will :lol:

In fact, I was planning to do one this weekened because of salanity loss due to salt creep but I would like to keep the spirit of this alive and will only change 5 gallons.
No, I'm implying I'm tired and can't do this anymore, and maybe 5 years from now I'll have more energy :)

ReefOcean 03-02-2012 12:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sphelps (Post 688456)
Really?? not sure I can explain any better, read the link dude, you'll learn something. Until then you're just wasting everyone's time.
I skimmed it. Don't use epsen salts? The "removal" section was a little short

sphelps 03-02-2012 01:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefOcean (Post 688463)
I skimmed it. Don't use epsen salts? The "removal" section was a little short
"I skimmed it. don't use epsen salts" lol classic.

ReefOcean 03-02-2012 01:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sphelps (Post 688491)
"I skimmed it. I don't use epsen salts" lol classic.
Well perhaps you can point me to the specific part of the huge article you want me to read. "I have a rebuttal, but read this novel to figure it out." This is like that law and order episode, when they subpoena some documents so the suspects place it inside 400 banker boxes filled with other documents and turn it all over. Here ya go, find it.

The Grizz 03-02-2012 01:24 AM
Unsubscribed do to to much ............................. ( can't say it here but you get the picture )

Aquattro 03-02-2012 01:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grizz (Post 688494)
Unsubscribed do to to much ............................. ( can't say it here but you get the picture )
You subscribe to these things?? That's insane!

The Grizz 03-02-2012 01:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquattro (Post 688495)
You subscribe to these things?? That's insane!
You calling me crazy Mr. :crazyeye:

sphelps 03-02-2012 01:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefOcean (Post 688493)
Well perhaps you can point me to the specific part of the huge article you want me to read. "I have a rebuttal, but read this novel to figure it out." This is like that law and order episode, when they subpoena some documents so the suspects place it inside 400 banker boxes filled with other documents and turn it all over. Here ya go, find it.
It's for your own personal gain, not to support either side of the discussion. You obviously lack the basic concepts so it's a good read and it's smaller than this rather pointless thread.

Aquattro 03-02-2012 01:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grizz (Post 688498)
You calling me crazy Mr. :crazyeye:
right period.

MarkoD 03-02-2012 01:32 AM
http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/...hursday-42.jpg

ReefOcean 03-02-2012 01:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sphelps (Post 688499)
It's for your own personal gain, not to support either side of the discussion. You obviously lack the basic concepts so it's a good read and it's smaller than this rather pointless thread.
You essentially say "you are wrong" , then provide some article and then give no further direction. Appeal to tradition is a fallacy. Just because it is the way it is usually done, doesn't make it always right.

From what I gathered from that article, the things a water change depletes can be controlled, minimized and even kept out of the system all together....

Unless of course you can provide me with something...which you won't.

You also trivialize this thread (rather un-objectively) by saying it is pointless, but you can't even provide an adequate aregument aside from "everybody else does it".

tim the toolman 03-02-2012 01:46 AM
I guess I should ask how old your system is. It may have been previously stated but I forget by now.

sphelps 03-02-2012 01:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefOcean (Post 688505)
You essentially say "you are wrong" , then provide some article and then give no further direction. Appeal to tradition is a fallacy. Just because it is the way it is usually done, doesn't make it always right.

From what I gathered from that article, the things a water change depletes can be controlled, minimized and even kept out of the system all together....

Unless of course you can provide me with something...which you won't.

You also trivialize this thread (rather un-objectively) by saying it is pointless, but you can't even provide an adequate aregument aside from "everybody else does it".
Hmmm I don't recall saying you're wrong, you asked a question and I answered it. The link was just general info on the subject which I insisted you read after you failed to understand the concept of how removing & replacing water reduces contaminants. Just look at one of the last graphs for example, the one regarding sulphur build up. In addition to sulphur many other elements and contaminants will act the same. Without water changes what is your plan to deal with such contaminants?

dc4 03-02-2012 01:54 AM
This is getting to be a pretty heated discussion, how about we add some tangs into the mix... How many times should we do water changes in a 20g with 3 tangs? :eek:

On a more serious note, Im getting nice growth from everything in my tank and have so for the last 6 months since moving to a larger system and not doing regular water changes. I did weekly water changes before that and honestly had more issues with water changes. Now with a large cleanup crew and my sump and overflow stuffed with macro algae, everything looks happier than ever. Though i do add more than a salt bucket full of ro water every week do to evaporation.

I do a minor 5-10g water change when i clean out my sump though, which includes cleaning out my skimmer, carbon, and phosban reactor but thats every few months, lol.

I think my vodka doing is a big help as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

ReefOcean 03-02-2012 01:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sphelps (Post 688510)
Hmmm I don't recall saying you're wrong, you asked a question and I answered it. The link was just general info on the subject which I insisted you read after you failed to understand the concept of how removing & replacing water reduces contaminants. Just look at one of the last graphs for example, the one regarding sulphur build up. In addition to sulphur many other elements and contaminants will act the same. Without water changes what is your plan to deal with such contaminants?


If I am not wrong, why you here? :lol:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/4/chemistry

I would minimize it....or not even introduce it by using quality additives and not stuff located under my sink.

jorjef 03-02-2012 01:58 AM
In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain
La, la la la la la la la la......

ReefOcean 03-02-2012 02:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tim the toolman (Post 688508)
I guess I should ask how old your system is. It may have been previously stated but I forget by now.
Much of the rock is 4 years old, the seed rock (about 5 pounds is about 6 years old). the rest (about 30 percent) is about 1 year old. The tank itelf (sump included) is about 5 months old but EVERYTHING was transfered from the old tank....so on average.....3 years old.

Some of the corals are 8 years old. Been through 5 transfers!

ReefOcean 03-02-2012 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc4 (Post 688515)
This is getting to be a pretty heated discussion, how about we add some tangs into the mix... How many times should we do water changes in a 20g with 3 tangs? :eek:

On a more serious note, Im getting nice growth from everything in my tank and have so for the last 6 months since moving to a larger system and not doing regular water changes. I did weekly water changes before that and honestly had more issues with water changes. Now with a large cleanup crew and my sump and overflow stuffed with macro algae, everything looks happier than ever. Though i do add more than a salt bucket full of ro water every week do to evaporation.

I do a minor 5-10g water change when i clean out my sump though, which includes cleaning out my skimmer, carbon, and phosban reactor but thats every few months, lol.

I think my vodka doing is a big help as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

My Soft corals have exploded. SPS is about the same since I stopped changing water. But yeah, I will be doing a small change soon, so stablize salanity and get the ditrious out of the bare bottom sump.

sphelps 03-02-2012 02:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefOcean (Post 688516)
If I am not wrong, why you here? :lol:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/4/chemistry

I would minimize it....or not even introduce it by using quality additives and not stuff located under my sink.
Because 1 I was here first and 2 because you asked the question why we need to do water changes and then continued to asked pretty much the same question over and over, so at this point I have no idea why.

So your solution to minimize contaminants is to add things like calcium chloride? Where does the chloride go? And how exactly do you think thing like sulphur and copper get in your water? Once again you have ignored everything put in front of you that you requested.

Best of luck, I've giving you what I know so no point repeating.

ReefOcean 03-02-2012 02:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sphelps (Post 688525)
Because 1 I was here first and 2 because you asked the question why we need to do water changes and then continued to asked pretty much the same question over and over, so at this point I have no idea why.

So your solution to minimize contaminants is to add things like calcium chloride? Where does the chloride go? And how exactly do you think thing like sulphur and copper get in your water? Once again you have ignored everything put in front of you that you requested.

Best of luck, I've giving you what I know so no point repeating.

Well geez, they havent affected me yet, nor have those people claiming to have no done water changes in many months...but...

Sulphur, explained.

copper= Use RODI and don't use some medications.

Cloride = build up is slow... or use calcium reactor?

sphelps 03-02-2012 02:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefOcean (Post 688529)
Well geez, they havent affected me yet, nor have those people claiming to have no done water changes in many months...but...

Sulphur, explained.

copper= Use RODI and don't use some medications.

Cloride = build up is slow... or use calcium reactor?
Yeap as I figured you have no idea... Again best of luck.

ReefOcean 03-02-2012 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sphelps (Post 688531)
Yeap as I figured you have no idea... Again best of luck.
You asked me how do minimalize/deal with it..so I answered. Obviously, you are the type of hobbyist who prefers to "preach" and "offer" (I use that term loosely) advice. Not really a discussing and debating kind of guy are ya


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