we could only hope....

so basically since there is bad in the world and always will be,...no one should bother to try for any measure of proper behavior? Beautiful!!!

Maybe your crusade is driven by the guilt you feel in having an aquarium full of captive creatures? I can't say, but because I don't bow to your lynch mob metality when starting this post doesn't mean you are any better than me.

Hey Marko, is there any room over there in the "penalty box of public opinion" I may be coming over...

You have voiced your opinion, so get over yourself and go away. Most of the people here have agreed with my post and the reasons for posting it.
I feel no guilt whatsoever, your reasoning is as flawed as your logic.

And your responses show I'm better than you, I could care less whether you agree with my post.

I thought you were done, Jorjef. Apparently not. Pity. Non-constructive insults don't add to any form of discussion.
Well, here's food for thought, since you are railing on about the general lack of ethics among reefers keeping captured wildlife prisoners in glass boxes: a good deal of research into coral reef health has evolved from hobbyists' original interests. And a lot of responsible hobbyists buy aquacultured corals now-- which only became available when hobbyists began asking for them instead of wild-harvested corals. Much knowledge and research has been generated as a result of the interests of hobbyists.
Lynch mob mentality...?? when you have something useful to say, say it. If all you can do is throw insults around, maybe just leave the discussion to the grownups trying to impart actual information.

im just hoping to get one of those swc cone skimmers for dirt cheap

:lol:

With any luck you can get it at his 'going out of business sale'

Oh so true...if you think that we are not a part of the whole problem, think again.

I agree completely.

Human beings are the direct causes of alot of problems on earth, especially where the environment is involved, and admittedly in the aquarium hobby.

However, the only way to ever change anything is for someone to start with one thing. To speak the truth and trust that responsible people can make intelligent choices.

I also fully believe that having home aquariums can be beneficial to the wild,...if we can mandate responsibility in the industry.
There has been a huge move in SW towards tank bred corals and fish, driven by an aquarium trade that at least acknowledges that we are better off not removing species from the wild.

How is it beneficial to the wild?

The only way to have a positive effect is by increasing awareness.

I believe that home aquariums bring a piece of the ocean into our homes where we can teach our family and children the value of life and the benefits of preserving wildlife. Would each individual fish or critter be better off in their original environment,...of course. But bringing in animals responsibly, in proper numbers as not to deplete natural sources helps to make these animals 'real' for people. People can only form so much attachment watching things on TV or in pictures. Seeing it up close has I'm sure has engendered lots of support from new sources.

That is why the industry is regulated and monitored,...and cases like this get prosecuted.
I can't change everything and I am certainly no saint, but I'd like to think that if we all did just a little bit we could probably make things alot better.

Just thought I'd get my two cents in. I'm not saying what he did was right but some of you might want to look up what CITIES stands for. Convention for International Trade in Endangered Species. And yes permits are available for what he got caught for. I know because I work in the trade. The only thing that made it illegal was that he didn't have permits. The only difference is legal endangered species have a CITIES permit. None of these species are schedule I which cannot be imported. They are schedule II so they can be imported if done properly with a permit.

For those of you that would never keep an endangered species, you might want to take a second look at what you have in your tanks because any of you that have live rock(live rock is dead coral), coral, clams, seahorses are keeping endangered species. The only difference is yours hopefully had a little piece of paper that said its OK. And you thought you were that much better than him. Do any of you have copies of the CITIES permits to prove your stuff is legal if customs or DFO came knocking on your door? I can prove some of mine is legal because I have some of the permit numbers on file for some of my coral but not all. You might want to take a look in the mirror and reconsider your thoughts because most of us guilty of keeping endangered species.

Thats all I have to say and I'm not saying anymore.

well put thank you for clearing that up:)

So we require permits for keeping these things in tanks? Or are the permits just for importing?

good points, and true....but they still don't diminish the reason for this post. And to correct myself, I should have used the term banned species rather than endangered but again only semantics. No one has convicted me of smuggling with or without permits.

If I see everyone stealing around me, do I say nothing?

Regardless, my original point still stands. It's one thing to be involved in a hobby with questionable practices,...totally different to openly support someone convicted of crimes.

And I know quite well I am not perfect,...does a person have to be perfect themselves before they are allowed to speak out against something they consider wrong? It's like the other guy taking shots because I have less posts than him, like either one makes any difference?!?

Anyways, I'd like to thank everyone for their participation and contributions. You have turned what was intended to be a small post on a local relevant topic into a huge discussion and brought it lots of attention. :x-mas:

The permits are only required for international trade(import/export/re-export). I'm only saying that once these items enter the country we can only assume they were legally imported unless you have access to the permits for proof. If you were trying to re-export from Canada to another country or from the US to Canada, you would need copies of the original CITIES permit from the country of origin. The reason most cultured corals from the US (like some ORA)cannot be legally re-exported into Canada is because they do not have a copy of the original permit of origin.

But how could anyone know if a coral originated in the ocean or from a frag of a frag of a frag?

if its in your tank in this country its assumed permits were had to bring it in making it legal for you to have, its getting caught in the process of importing without having the proper documents thats illegal.....anyone could have black market animals in there tank theres no way to tell.

which is exactly why we should be getting rid of the ones we do catch.

And just to clarify, by getting rid of, I mean to say get them out of the industry,..I'm not suggesting Myka get the AK out.:twised:

Thats the problem you can't and either can they. The way customs sees it they all originated from the ocean at one time. Any piece of calcium carbonate based coral skeleton is considered to be part of an endangerded species whether captive grown or wild. They cannot tell the difference between a third generation frag containing none of the original coral or a clipping of a wild coral. Canada and the US as well as other countries do not allow export of there own corals so that coral had to come from somewhere. The only way to kind of prove that coral is legal is with a copy of the permit. But who is to say a certain permit goes with a certain coral. I guess a permit containing Acropora could really be used for any re-export of an acropora. Who would know?

^^^so we should ignore the fact that this guy just got convicted of 18 offenses and support him because none of us can prove were our coral came from?

shouldnt you, being in the industry, be supportive of a conviction off such offenses......HE DIDNT HAVE THE PROPER PAPERWORK!.....anyone who makes the importation of cites regulated specimens knows the paper-trail that NEEDS to be followed........it not like he was like, "dang! I done forgot to the fill out and file the paperwork".......If this is your business then you KNOW what avenues you need to follow to legally import things.....


Sad part is, is he will not see jail time and likely be forced to pay a nominal fine (especially if this was his first trip through the system) and will still be selling stuff tomorrow......this is where the customer can make a difference

I agree, him not having permits was illegal and he should pay. Importing these species is not. The reason these species (CITIES schedule II)require CITIES permits is that they are on watch list a quota system in order to monitor and control export/import so they don't become so endangered that they become a "Banned" (CITIES schedule I species). Not having the permits means that they were not counted in the quotas which could have an impact on the overall outlook of the species and if allowed to continue could make them truely endangered. I agree that an example should be made so that others don't try. None of these species are banned yet. BUT....

Currently there are several special interest groups In the US that are pushing for several coral species including several species of acropora, euphyllia(frogspawn, torch, hammer) and others to be moved from CITIES schedule II to CITIES schedule I. If this happens they would be considered "banned endangered species" and you may require permits to keep the ones you have(grandfathered). If this happens you would not legally be able to import, export, devide or frag(now you would need multiple permits but your new peice would not be grandfathered so it would be illegal), sell, give or transport over state and possible provincial lines. The worst part of this is that it would make captive culturing of these species illegal so if the species did become extinct in wild the it could be gone for good This is what over harvesting because of illegally imported endangered species could lead to.

Like I said in my intial response what he did was wrong. I was not defending him. No where did i say it wasn't wrong. I just wanted to let people know the facts about the species they were keeping. I just wanted to let the people that were saying that they would never keep an endangered species of coral that they should have their facts straight. All hard coral/live rock(Scleractinia sp.)are on the CITIES list. They are there because they are endangered. We all like to point fingers but we need to know the facts. These species can be legaly imported. He did it illegally and its good that he got caught.

CITES, not CITIES! :p

way to stir up trouble tony lol:pppp

:lol:....you crack me up Tony

Thank you both for clarifying. It is admitted that we were incorrect about the circumstances of the convictions. Regardless my concern was with his involvement in the hobby and him breaking the law, not what his specific charge was.

I wanted to bring attention to something that should concern us all. My intent was to help inform and support the hobby.

Another point about which I won't speculate too much....What we have heard about here was one set of circumstances where he was investigated and caught and prosecuted. When most criminals are caught,...it is not their first time at bat. I would not be shocked to find out he has committed other acts that he was not caught at.

Doh!! Got me there.

I don't know,...I'm pretty sure it's CITIES.:razz:

Sitties?

cfties

Well I said more then my two cents so ill leave it at that. Glad he got caught, convicted, and he should pay the price so our hobby can continue. Hopefully we can continue to learn, keep, culture, trade, and love our endangered species and who knows one day we could be repenishing the ocean if continuing global warming and greenhouse gasses make some of these species extinct in the wild.

Amen:canada:

Sighties........:razz:

IMO this hobby is a privilege and losers like him need to be shutdown because everything that is abused in this world is eventually taken away. people like him are why this hobby is so expensive.

Lol did you make an account just for that post?

Welcome :)

I'm starting to think there is a vested interest in Jayson going down.... Some here (some peggers) are spending lots of bandwidth telling us what an evil doer he is. Yeah I think it's unanimous that passing 20 000 lbs of permit needed rock under the nose of the powers that be wasn't too bright. But the maximum? C-mon.

Never met him, I have a SWC skimmer and lights. Had a warrantee issue with the skimmer pump and only payed shipping for a replacement. Besides this black eye I have nothing bad to say about him or his product.

ha...what. I lost this battle a while ago.

Actually this was only intended to be a small post to bring attention to the issue.
It was all of the small people with nothing better to do than flap their lips who turned it into a big deal.

By all means please continue.

'(some peggers) are spending lots of bandwidth telling us what an evil doer he is.'???

Who the heck would you expect to speak out against this, people from Norway? It happened in our city, our community. Stands to reason we would have a voice about it. Any responsible fish-keeper should.

If you guys think it's not a big deal,...then shut your pie holes and the thread will go away. It's only still active because of all the jerks condoning his actions.

Those last comments are really nice. :sad:

If one of the other staff members wish this thread open, they can reopen it.