i have this overwelming urge to watch free willy...

my parents got a dog through the ckc .. purebred american cocker.. got cateracts (however its spelt) in a year and cancer 2 years later.

no matter how the breeding my only concern, for any pet /animal is a good loving home. when i was a kid we got an english cocker who refused to die he was a superdog lived 14 years.

i do agree some ppl should not try to breed period animal or otherwise. lol

i think ,and im guilty of this as well, ppl have misread or taken too quick to judge, and have gotten a little heated of this poor guy and his puppies. i personally feel bad for my two dogs. the lab is two nuts short of manhood and the only thing he has ever humped was another male dog.. and our female shepard collie cross.. i think the snipped her brains by accident.. but i love them both all the same.

in the end we all should sniff eachothers butts and make up hehehe

Yes, but often the loving home turns unloving, when huge vet bills come in, and the dog has seizures every other day, and poops all over everything. Then it's often discarded. Not always, but often. Proper breeding, with top priority given to health and temperment (which to evaluate properly takes considerable time and money) will help to ensure that the dog gets to enjoy a happy healthy life, and makes an enjoyable experience for both dog and humans. Without the enjoyment on both sides, these things often end badly (for the dog).

To clarify, 70 dogs to one rescue org. There are a lot more just for that breed.
And in no way am I saying a "professional breeder" is better, many of these are the worst. They have a flashy website, lots of puppy pics, etc, but are generally a profit based business. Perhaps a better description should be "authentic breeder"? I dunno, but I'm pretty sure you can figure out what I mean. Esentially, a breeder who does it for the love of the breed, with the intent and purpose of breeding clearly defined as to promote a healthy representative for their breed. This creates a puppy with the best chances for a long healthy life. Does it stop all the problems? No way. But every little bit helps, no?

trust me i know what your saying i do probono work for the humain society here.. i help them break in to homes to rescue animals. i dont charge them for the service. i just do it cause it something i can do for the animals.

ah well i was just trying to lighten the mood im off again.

where can I get a job like that??

I hope the mood isn't too dark, I'm trying hard to keep it civil and informative :)

im an owner operator slave of a locksmith company in regina. and when i bought the business i approached the humain society to offer my services to thier warrants. they were getting charged 85 bucks and up to open homes to rescue pets. who pays for that ?? noone just the donations to the humain society. so i do it for free. my good deeds done dirt cheep :) its all done legally. and i get to help save lives.

good on ya!

LOL..this truly has turned into a circus side show.
thank god a moderator is involved or this thread would have been locked a long time ago.
All kidding aside...I can at least respect your determinism in your cause, regardless of my own point of view.
so, what happens when everyone only buys from "reconginized breeders" and/or adopt from rescue places.
What happens when all the rescue dogs are adopted. I mean there are lots of dogs waiting to be adopted, but in comparison to the millions of dogs every year that are purchased, the supply would very very quickly be drained.

not everyone wants to wait for 2 years to get a dog or pay a very large amount of money from what you are calling true breeders.

so does mean that people don't get to have a dog?

most of the dogs that people have come from people like me...not recoginized breeders...
why...because the breeders can't handle the demand..aka - the 2 year waiting list.

To be straight forward..Yes i bred Ginger for the money and because I enjoy her having puppies and I have a few people who have actually requested a puppy.

If your true breeders don't do it for the money why aren't they giving their puppies away???
lets be honest, unless it was a mistake, ultimately everyone breeds for money..or in some cases the prestige i guess they feel they get from the dog shows.
Which off course, if they do well at, the puppies they sell will be worth all the more.

a lot of them do, it they have a puppy that they determin is extreamly hopfull they will make an arangment for a shared ownership which cost you nothing but they have the right to breed the dog at a later date.

a lot of them is prestege.. I was thinking of showing my dog just for bragging rights till I found out ho much it costs.. yes the top kennels are doing it for both the money and prestege, but realy there isn't much money. I worked it out after vet costs, food, time spent stud fees and such my breeder actualy lost money as there were only two pups in the litter. to break even he needed 5. why does he do it.. he loves goldens, he has some good dogs and likes the prestege of it all. as for my self when I looked into the price of showing I choked.. you will spend about 1000 / month for 2 or 3 shows and most likely won't win anything, if you get a profesional handler you have a way better chance of winning but they can double the price. if you want to go all the way and try for westminster, you pretty much need to campain your dog and people spend upwords of 100000.00 to do that. so not a poormans game.

and after thinking about it what point is there unless I am going to breed my doggie which I am not as there is to much liability on the stud dog in a regestered breeding.

I am not against breeding dogs, while I wouldn't buy a BYB dog as I would rather rescue a mutt than buy one, I am ok with it as long as the breeder is being responcible, providing the best care available, and is honest about it.

Steve

My friend volenteers with the SPCA, unles you go every day you wont see the little dogs, there are 7X more little dogs going through the one here than big dogs but they go very fast as city people want little dogs that will be happy in small yards or houses.

same thing goes for pet stores.. the average person buys small cute dogs, so while GSD, Golden, lab ect puppys are extreamly cute they get big real fast and they become unsellable, so they tend to stick with smaller dogs that will stay cute longer.

Steve

your turn was 1/2 right.. the Bichon is concidered a companion pet now, but only because of the uncertenty of its ancestory..

as for the Shih-Tzu, or tibetan lion dog, it was bread as a guard dog for the temples which required little activity and food making them easy to have.

Steve

Well, I can't really speak with authority for most breeds, and Border Collies don't quite fit into normal criteria. A good breeder for my breed only breeds proven parents, those that place well in sheepdog trials, or work full time on a farm with stock. And usually when these breedings happen, it's to obtain their next working dog, with the rest sold to other handlers. And a PB Border Collie from proven parents can be found for $500 or less, so not a lot of money above costs.
We don't have a breed standard for physical traits, only the requirement to be able to work sheep well, which is a rather unique thing for BCs and we want to preserve.
Yes, some "show" barbie collies get produced, and sport dogs as well, often for a lot more money. But the true breeders don't do it for profit, they do it for love of the breed.
And to address your supply/demand question, if people refused to buy bulk rate puppies, the supply of quality pups would go up. Unfortunaely there will always be a profit factor, and my perfect world scenario will never come to be, but it's something to strive for, rather than just going with the flow.
There are people on my side, people on your side, and people on the fence. It's the fence sitters I'm hoping to influence, to at least slow the damage being done now. Ultimately, more and more breeds will vanish, or lose the ability to do what they were originally meant to do. For Border Collies, we strive to maintain the instinct to work with a handler in managing livestock.

Nooo designer dogs are shuned and not reconized by any legit kennel or breeder. the whole thing is a lie and not a breed but rather a mut as the results are not consistant or repeatable.. these are very good examples of back yard breeders trying to cash in on a trend.

Steve

Jeebus this thread went to h*ll in a handbasket Congats on the new puppies Neal.

Now will some of you preachers come to my neighborhood and preach to all my neighbors about all their friggin cats running around

Sorry, one mission at a time :)

gladly :wink:

My cat is a indoor only cat and even though I love them I hate it when they are let out to roam where ever.. nothing better than weeding the flower garden and getting the cunky surprise :mrgreen:

Steve

Border collies are the exception to the rule I'm afraid. Thats why they weren't recognized by the ckc for so long...the people that care for the breed wanted to keep the breeders who breed for show from messing them up.


*Edit* I don't have much use for so called professional breeders I'm afraid. There are good ones out there and then there are reputable breeders out there who were caught keeping genetic epilepsy in their stud dogs hidden from other breeders (true story)

how do they do that Marie? when I was looking into what was involved in having a stud dog you have to be able to show genetic info back 10 generations plus clearances and COIs. if there was a knowen problem such as that its genetic it would be pretty hard to hide. along with the responcibility of having the stud as any genetic problem seams to always be the studs fault and then you are on the hook for refunding the stud fees and dammages. I also discovered that even if the stud isn't at fault it is usaly blamed on him, god forbid there was somthing wrong with the bitch :wink::mrgreen:

I agree that there are "reputable" breeders out there that are not as ethical as they would protray, but that is why it is on the ownus of the purchser to do his home work also. I got in touch with about 10 people who have gotten dogs over the last 8 years from mine and had a good chat. usaly the not so good ones are not in business for very long or have a couple litters then disapear for a while and come back under a different name. I even wet as far as to look up 5 generations of clearances and genetic info on the mom and dad of my boy as it was all reported online and simple to look up. not only do you see that but you can see the litter mates of them all and see how long the dogs who are dead lived and usaly there is a reason for the death listed also.

Steve

A friend of mine was a lab breeder and when puppies started coming back to her with epilepsy she checked back on her lines first and then investigated the stud breeder....they had managed to keep it hidden over 4 generations and when finally confronted they admitted that there was epilepsy in that line going back at least 6 generations.
Something like epilepsy is easier to hide then the more obvious hip displasia ect

Any way Howdy I would take a good backyard breeder who raises the puppies in the home and chooses a good tempered stud over a "show confirmation" breeder anyday

Not everyone can afford a pedigree pup. And more often than not the others including the Heinz 57's make a better pet. :wink:

Yes we want more puppy pictures. And hope you sell them all off Canreef. :lol
:redface:

Hope the new litter is doing well and give ginger a pat from me for being an awesome little mommy. :biggrin:

i will take my 2 mutts before i would ever want one of those $1000 fancy dogs with all the health problems. The only problem with my 2 are that they have no slowdown buttons. Congrats on the litter hope all goes well

Congratulations on your pups! Not that you even need to hear one more opinion, but I think that what you're doing is great. Making sure to take good care of your pups and ask for some personal experiences is nice. The vet can give you so much info, but sometimes it's nice to hear some tricks and tips that other people may have. Again, congrats on the puppies and I know you are doing your best for them.

As far as all the "critics" go, it's definitely easier for them to stand on their pedestal. I didn't know that coffee discussions were the same as research and actual knowledge. And as far as "breed standards" go, so many of the breeds have been mutilated and changed that they are not even the same as when the breed was first created. The English Bulldog is a prime example of this. So, I'm not sure that Kennel Club Standards are the most positive model to aspire after anymore.

I have 3 dogs that I love very much. One being a rescue, one from a backyard breeder, and one from a registered breeder. They have all turned out to be amazing dogs, but not everybody is so lucky. As it's already been mentioned many times before, there can always be problems no matter where you find your puppy. And as long as we make our choice to be responsible pet owners, and breeders, we can all try to make the world a better place for us.

I also agree to the comment that mentioned 99.99% of us on this site rip critters from the ocean on a daily basis. If you feel that puppies and dogs do not belong in shelters, why do you feel that it's right to own a reef tank? I don't feel that your pedestal is well warranted.

Props to everybody for their positive comments and support. And to Neal, good work and good luck.

Just so we're clear, I think kennel clubs are the worst thing that ever happened to dogs, exactly for the reasons you stated.

This is exactly why I paid a thousand for my dog so I would be guaranteed it would not have problems. I had to put my dog before this to sleep at 8 years (hip problems). I now have a dog that is guaranteed to not have those problems as I paid to make sure. So mutts are not always the way to go.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...c6e831_b-1.jpg

Here are some more pics
http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._6639277_n.jpg
a nice family portrait

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._8122255_n.jpg

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._1053837_n.jpg
a little porker

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._8336330_n.jpg
Doggy pile

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._4297489_n.jpg
A picture of the runt

cute dogs.

hey, you mentioned something about the colors, what is the normal color for these dogs? man thats a lot of puupy haha

Steve

If life came with a guarantee always, that would be something. Life does not work that way. So because your dog has this guarantee and something goes wrong do you send it back and get a replacement??? You have chosen a pedigree for personnel reasons. You like the look, breed, whatever helped you decide that a pedigree was your cup of tea. Have owned a pedigree and she was just like every other one in her breed.

My 2 current dogs are mutts. They eat, sleep, play, protect me, bark and **** just like any pedigree pouch does. They may not look like the typical pure bred dog, but they have been wonderful companions and I would not trade them for anything. :wink:

since this thread was originaly about food, I will go back to that with some general info and and some interesting reading.

this is from a dog board, but very good info.

"ethoxyquin extended the shelf life of pet foods yet it was a high risk preservative. Today, you’ll rarely see ethoxyquin listed on a pet food label. Most pet food manufacturers add natural mixed tocopherols to preserve ingredients. However, because of the likelihood of rancidity of fish meal (ground whole fish and/or fish parts), many fish meal suppliers add ethoxyquin prior to ingredient delivery at the pet food manufacturing plant. And guess what? That ethoxyquin added to the fish meal, because it wasn’t added by the pet food manufacturer, is not required to be listed within the ingredients on the label.

this chemical causes problems including liver, kidney, thyroid and reproductive dysfunction, teratogenic and carcinogenic effects, allergic reactions and a host of skin and hair abnormalities.

As of the writing of this article (9/5/09), the following are the companies that have responded.
Artemis Pet Foods
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
Breeders-Choice – AvoDerm Natural Pet Food
“Breeder's Choice does not use ethoxyquin in any of it's foods. However, because it is found in the food chain, trace amounts cannot easily be eliminated.”
Blue Buffalo Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved naturally with Naturox.”
By Nature Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with natural tocopherols.”
California Natural, Innova, Evo Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with Vitamin E and mixed tocopherols.”
Canidae/Felidae Pet Foods
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
Castor & Pollux Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with Naturox.”
Chicken Soup for the Pet Lover’s Soul Pet Foods
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
Diamond Pet Foods
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
Evolve Natural Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with mixed tocopherols.”
Flint River Ranch Pet Food
“Fish meal is flash frozen until time of manufacturing; no preservative needed.”
Fromm Family Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with citric acid.”
Kumpi Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with tocopherols.”
Merrick Pet Foods
“Fish meal preserved with mixed tocopherols.”
Natural Balance Pet Foods
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
Nature’s Logic Pet Food
“Fish meals are preserved with natural tocopherols and rosemary.”
Newman’s Own Pet Foods
“Fish meals preserved with Vitamin E.”
Petcurean Pet Foods
“Fish Meal is preserved with Vitamin E..”
Premium Edge Pet Foods
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
Solid Gold Pet Foods
“Fish meal preserved with tocopherols.”
Taste of the Wild Pet Foods
Per Diamond Pet Food (manufacturer) “all fish meal, ocean fish meal, and salmon meal ingredients are preserved with ethoxyquin.”
Timberwolf Organics Pet Foods
“Fish meal ingredients are preserved with Vitamin E.”
TLC Pet Foods
“Fish meal is preserved with tocopherols.”

Many other pet food manufacturers were contacted, no response as of 9/5/09. The holiday weekend could be the delay in their responses.

Fish meals, NOT fish ingredients are a concern with ethoxyquin. As example, ‘salmon’ listed on a pet food label would not be an ethoxyquin preserved ingredient; ‘salmon meal’ might be. The ONLY way to know is to ask the manufacturer specifically. Warning however, some responses I have received did not directly answer my ethoxyquin question. As example, one manufacturer told me “we do not add ethoxyquin to any of our pet foods”. This response does NOT tell me if their supplier might add ethoxyquin. I am waiting for their follow up response."

Steve

thanks for the pics.....they are sweet....enjoy them....your doing a great job.

Different strokes for different folks.

I don't really care what my pets are but many many people want X breed. If I wanted X breed I'd likely go to a breeder too though but I don't think I'd ever pay much more than maybe $100-200 for any pet. I've owned every kind of pet before and the only difference is their looks and personalities. I guess I lucked out since my dad's a vet so we never paid for any of our pets (all the pure breed 'show dogs' we owned were free from clients and their was always strays around that we'd convince him to let us keep). My cat's a mutt but she's so awesome!

Saying a pure breed is guaranteed to not have X problem is a load though and if any breeder ever claims that, ask for it in writing. Every animal can have a multitude of problems. They are usually just selectively bred to REDUCE the likelihood of certain problems.

No I agree there is never a for sure but with this dog I know that my odds are a lot less to have problems as he has a family health that goes back generations of not having these problems. I would never send him back but wanted the odds stacked in my favor this time.
My last three were mutts and they were great dogs as well. That being said I wanted one that I knew I would not have curtain problems with as well as I picked this dog for my life style.
Here is a picture of what happens when you take a dog hiking that has hip problems. This was his last hiking trip with me.
Not fun to carry a 130lbs dog out of the bush.:wink:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...a8be2588_b.jpg

Considering what a dog will cost you over its lifetime in vet bills and food a thousand is not that much to pay for a dog, but like you said to each his own.

the price of the dog is the cheep part, its what the vets soak you for the 3 rounds of shots, spay/nuter/ect.. we paid 1K for our golden, then another 400 in vet charges for shots, 500 is going towards training classes ect.. and I haven't even inquired to what nutering costs yet. oh I am almost at 400 in food for the last 3 months plus 1 or 2 more... so ya.. the price of the dog isn't realy relivent other than its a one time charge..

I should also add the 225 for the dog we got from the SPCA, 200 bucks in food for 3 months, 500 bucks in trying to cure her of her dog agression problems.. and what you can put a value on is the heartbreak of the kids and us when we decided we had to take her back...

thats why we went with a puppy and hegged our bets with a breed that is knowen to be exelent with people and other animals. the other dog was a goldenX we found out it was crossed with a chow and attitude wise it is the chow that domanated when dealing with other dogs. that is the only down side to a crossed dog, you never know which trates will domanate and there is no continuity even in litter mates. now we could have been luckey with the SPCA dog also.. we had a 50/50 chance.. but we wernt.

Steve

Tell me about it!! 35/week for stock lessons x2, 250/quarter for agility coach, 40/dog/day for flyball tournaments, renting sheep, 25/hr, backyard with 1000 worth of equipment, house crates, van crates, van, etc. Oh, and food. 3 cases of chicken a month, 1 case of beef bits, treats, toys, and then the vet. 800 to pull a tooth, shots, etc..
Yup, the dogs were the cheap parts :)

:pound:

Again I'm very lucky in that regard. My dad and sister are both veterinarians and my family owns several vet clinics. I've never had to pay for a vet or any vet related services. Food I currently get for free also (written off as a clinic expense, this is likely to change when I graduate University). If I do ever get anything it's always at cost anyways. When it comes to pure breeds there's usually someone my family knows that'll give us a great deal for reducing their bills on the rest of the litter (we've done that in the past and got free dogs.. It is a good deal for the breeder and costs us nothing really except my dads time). Again, I'm just lucky though.

are you feeding vet food for that write off or are you actualy buying good food somewhere else?

Steve

I assume you're trying to start another raw food debate in here which I won't get into (and I'm sure others don't want that again as this is not the appropriate thread for that subject and it's already been beat to death in the last thread...). But to elaborate my answer more clearly than my last post already stated, I'm feeding recommended food from my family that would likely be considered 'vet food' since it does comes from a vet clinic. If I got it from somewhere else it wouldn't be 'free' for me unless my family could order it. This food has never given me or my family problems before so I use it with confidence and I consider it 'good food' as you said, even if others may disagree with me. So let's leave it at I won't push my views on others if they don't on me.