Well, I can, forgave you're reefing mistakes but I don't so sure about the grammer mistakes ;)

No seriously though, if you are having success with the tangs, I say continue on. Of course you may not be able to keep them into full adult sizes but enjoy them while you can!

Well then there you go...thats why I said I doubt they would go for it. I didn't mean it in a bad way like it was a good idea but mods wouldn't want to do it...I just meant that they only way this would really work would be a whole new section and that I didn't think the mods would want that.

And you're complaining about Myka making condescending comments? A simple explanation that you've never signed up before until now would have sufficed.

I think these list ideas are good, but should only be used as a guide and not the fish keeping bible.

And for an entertaining afternoon, I think it would be fun to take the list around to the local fish sellers and see how many creatures from the list are for sale, and ask the staff if they are easy to keep. I bought a nudibranch from a lfs and ended up returning it when I found out it would slowly starve. Of course the guy at the lfs said they would eat algae from my tank. :rolleyes:

The entertaining part would be when the person who brings in such a list leaves the LFS afterwards. The conversation and the names that they would be calling this person would be a hoot to hear. If you owned a business and a person comes in telling or showing you what you should or should not sell what would you think or do? Everyones systems or setups are different. There's already been alot of examples on here where something works for one but not the other. I'm really shocked that this thread has not been locked yet and I'm glad it has'nt been. It is a very good debate. So please lets not get out of hand so this thread continues.

Oh, c'mon, we aren't doing this again? I kept mine for years until my stupidity killed it. It did great in my 75. An example of rules not always applying. sure, they are difficult, but not impossible. so are the red, or yellow, or green with a yellow tick, containing a reddish hue?

Don't pick on Marie because she had good luck with a fish.

Unless a fish, say the ornate butterfly, is undeniably impossible without huge amounts of keeper intervention, a list will always be a guideline, that some will choose to follow, and others will not.
And the LFS will always try to sell whatever comes in the box, we all know they gets lots of substitutions, so what's a person to do? This is a huge complex issue that a list is not going to fix. There's lists all over the place for so many things, heck, we could make a list of them.
This is a good hypothetical conversation, people need to not take it too seriously.

Hey, I will be delighted to see a red and yellow list with some species on it rather than no list at all.
I agree that everyone will not agree on every species and which category they should fall in.

Here is how I understand how LFS purchase livestock and coral.
1. Exporters provide a list to wholesalers of what they have available.
2. Wholesalers provide that list to LFS who indicate the species and size of what they wish to order.
3. Wholesalers provide the LFS list to the exporters who ship the order.
I understand substitutions are now rare as LFS do not appreciate it, especially when they get stuck with Moorish Idol or cleaner wrasses which many of reputable refuse to carry anymore unless they are ordered in by the customer.
BTW can you post a picture of your powder brown tang if you still have it.
Thanks
Wayne

I make a practice and other reefers as well of chastising LFS if I see cleaner wrasse or moorish idol in their tanks for sale. Why do you think they are not brought in as often. LFS more than anyone know the survivability of these species in their own tanks and reputable LFS do not order them anymore unless requested by a customer.

Marie mentioned some where in this thread that she sold it. I am not sure if she would know if it is alive or not now. I can say I have never been to an LFS and not seen cleaner wrasses available. At least in my neck of the woods. I have always had good luck with mine.

Great idea. Let's us do it this weekend and see who is carrying cleaner wrasse, Moorish idol, Powder brown (nigricans) and some of the potential red/yellow species and post the results.
It would be really interesting.
Wayne

Looking forward to seeing the results. BTW I've read alot of your posts as well, your avatar goes well with your attitude. Anyone remember where this quote is from? "Save the cheerleader, save the world."

Hiro in Heros

Wayne, you're not reading. :) I said I killed it, but we did argue about it, and I posted pics of it for many years way back in the old days. We've been all around this one before.

Sounds like Buffy to me!
http://www.timboucher.com/journal/wp...-dvd-cover.jpg

I would not tell anyone I knew that.......:laugh:

The only reason for asking for the photo was simply to determine which of the two 'powder brown' species we are talking about.

You confirmed it last time I posted, it was a nigricans. I agree that one should not take one of these fish if the japonicus is available, but let's face it, we've been discussing this for 10 years and they're still coming to the LFS. They always will, as long as fish are sold as pets.

I think Brad and I talked japonicus/nigricans in 2003

I had a japonicus he had the nigricans

Thanks

First of all, oh yes I am probably one of the most hypocritical bastards in the world! :D I will say that for sure. I don't follow a lot of the rules when it comes to my own tank, but I definitely wouldn't recommend that to anyone else! ;)

You miss the point of most of my postings. My aim is to help newbies out. That is my biggest payoff on these boards. Keep in mind that most of the threads I post in are threads started by people who are new to reef keeping. There are a lot of "rules" or general guidelines if you will that will really help a newbie out to follow them. Once someone gains more experience they can branch out and try new or more challenging things without as much risk. Newbies are often put off of reef keeping because they bite off a bigger chunk than they can chew. If there are more experienced reefers around that can help to keep those newbies keep things under control then there are greater chances that there will be another great reefer in the world. :)

I sure do. My Kole Tang is rather a cute lil thang. His body is about the same size as my Bangaii Cardinals' bodies. Point being, his current size is not too large for the tank, but I have no plans to get a 100+ gallon tank to house him, so he will have a new home - soon too as he has not done the job I hoped he would. I bought him with this in mind, and I took over a year to find a specimen small enough for my tank at which point I paid a grossly large amount for him.

No I didn't tell someone their 65 was to small for a tang (at least not the last little while), I told someone their 90 was too small for a Sailfin Tang. Don't you agree?

My ass. I could have said 63%, would that have worked better for you? Seriously though, I have done enough work in retail stores when I was younger, and also just simply by looking on forums like these or RC, and it's not difficult to see that 95/97/99% (a large percentage anyway) are not capable of housing a Flying Gurnard or a Banded Bamboo shark. Do you disagree?

Oh I know!!! J&L's New & Noteworthy page this week is AWFUL!! :eek: There are at least 4 critters on there that should be left in the ocean (or kept by experienced reef keepers only for the sake of argument). I have seen red/yellow listed animals in every store that I have bought livestock from at some point or another. I didn't mention anything about it on these forums because J&L doesn't respond as they don't check these forums very often. Does this mean I shouldn't try to make a difference?

Oh, and if you're that interested I wanted to order a photosynthetic gorgonian, and a brain coral.

Well I have been keeping reefs since somewhere around 1990 ish, so I'm glad someone's finally recognized me as a leading expert! I'm flattered! :o

:lol:

Seriously though, it doesn't take an expert to do a little research to find plenty of literature on cyanide caught fish, and which species are more likely to be caught that way. Have you personally seen these fish caught with cyanide? No? Does that mean it doesn't happen?


You're a bit of an extremist aren't you? You're like the kettle calling the pot black. The red/yellow list for example, as I've already said is not a be all end all. The point of it is to help newbies, and if newbies are told "NO!" instead of "Well, maybe if you do this this this..." then that's not necessary a bad thing in many cases. ;)






Hey Brad, would you change my "Member" to "Rogue Reef Bully" please? I think it would be more suiting. :D

You got it:rolleyes:
I guess that one went over some heads. Just out of curiosity since we are now gonna move this to bashing J&L......... does any one person want to tell the rest of us why they got fired from J&L?

No, we're not bashing anyone. And I got fired for setting the fishies free in English Bay. Oh well.

Guide
 

I am in favour of a guide........but there are lots of guides and information all over the internet. I have now purchased at least 8 saltwater fish and coral/inverts books and have read all Myka's guides and most of Randy Holmes-Farley's papers. (And I have never taken as much tylenol as I have in the last month!!)

People get excited over the fish "not to keep". Then you see that guy with fish galore and he is doing well with them. Some people say "you cannot keep these fish" but others have and are still doing fine. There are exceptions to all the rules of life.

So what does this come down to: Some of us will try to keep some of those "hard to keep fish" and some of them will die, and some will do well. The owners of the dead fish will spout all the "hard to keep fish" a couple of years from now and all the newbie’s will have to go out on there own, confused as we are now. (not that all red list specimens are in danger of newbie purchases)

WHY? Its human nature and that’s how HUMANS learn, not matter how much literature we read or are told by people that have grand experience. (That book smart VS real life experience syndrome)...of course there are just the rebels of the forum - you know who you are!!

There is no sense in getting worked up about it.

If we keep having people judging everyone’s tanks no one will want to post here anymore.

Hey....hold on here.....ok....I see the conspiracy now!!! :biggrin:

Seriously, please treat people the way you want to be treated. (I have read this more than once) and I see newbie’s sticking up for others on here now. That’s just weird.....are we not just the little people!!! I must have missed the memo!

Have Fun and keep Reefing!

Thanks
Brad

Oh what Brad (Aquattro), no "Rogue Reef Bully" for me??? Oh I so sad now Brad... :'(

As I see it, it is this kind of statement that makes this whole list idea unfeasible. Some people are too quick to chastise somebody, and use too sharp a tongue when doing so. There may be underlying circumstances as to why a person may have purchased a certain animal:

eg. Marie stated that the fish was sent to her in error. She didn't order that fish. (Besides which, Marie is an experienced hobbyist and has several difficult species thriving in her tank.)

eg. I bought a Mandarin Dragonet when my tank was only 6 months old. Did I think my tank was ready for it? No. I didn't particularly even want the fish. I purchased the fish from an LFS because it had been sitting in a tank for 2 weeks without any live rock and was wasting away. I brought the fish home and over the next 6 months I purchased 7 bottles of Tigger pods to keep a decent pod population going. I have had him now for over a year and he is healthy and fit, without as far as I know ever eating any prepared foods. Yet, I've received hell on more than one occasion for owning a Mandarin.

eg. I bought a 3" Sailfin Tang for my 90 gal tank. Sure enough, I caught hell for it: "It'll grow too large for your 90 and you won't get a bigger tank for it". He's now about 6" and I have a 225 gal home for him.

The point I'm trying to make is that things are not always black and white, and jumping all over someone for an animal they may keep is why, IMO, although it may be a nice idea in theory, this "LIST" idea is not going to work.

Guys, girls,


YOU ARE ALL BEING VERY IMMATURE.

Yes you want to voice your opinion, and yes you probably think the other guys/girls opinion is wrong, but come on already.
You people are taking shots on each other, some of which don't even pertain to the topic,
and just voicing your opinion in a very immature way that no one really needs to read about on a public forum for all ages.


This thread was obviously made to help out people who are new to reef keeping, or even people who aren't new to the hobby, find out if fish that they want would be a suitable and responsible choice.
Not a 10 page long fight over your opinions.

I will be making no reply's if someone calls me out on this because i didn't reply to this thread for more fighting.

Mods, can you please get rid of this thread so canreef can be a more positive place?

And reefers, I personally think its kind of sad when a 13 year old has to tell you whats wrong.

While reading this thread, I did see extremist attitudes. However, he did not come off sounding extreme. I'm not saying you did either. I'll leave it at that.

Bravo. :clap2:

I like the idea of a coloured list, for a sort of lazy person such as myself, it would be a quick and easy reference guide. No hunting through pages of information before finding out that the fish I might want isn't a good choice.



Well said, but there is a lot of good info in this thread that I would hate to see lost.

There is good info, and I don't think we'll close it so far, but let's get back to positive input. Banners in 100 font is not needed either, it just fuels the fire. Please, let's be nice and positive, see if we can help new hobbyists make better choices.

As far as I'm concerned the fish polls are great and I check it a lot. If only they could be reset on a yearly basis it would be even better :mrgreen:

Who knew your a$$ was so smart :razz: :lol: (sorry I just really couldn't help myself) Honestly though Myka makes a very good point, there are certain fish that :n00b: should not keep until they get more experience and their are some fish that probably should never be kept.

For example a LFS here got in these cute little butterflyfish (eightbanded or cheatodon octofasciatus) when I asked an employee about them he admitted that the order was a mistake and that probably all of them would die since they only eat certain types of SPS coral in the wild. Now say it wasn't a reputable fish store or had knowledgeable staff working there and they said it was fine and suitable, now say if I have knowledge of a quick list I could easily check and this fish come up "red" then maybe I'll decide for myself that it would be a poor choice.

I wasn't going to reply again (but of course I am) because this thing has really gotten so ridiculous.

This really was just meant to be a good, positive thing. I really can't wrap my head around why anyone who doesn't like the idea of the list would even care if its made or not. No one is trying to pass laws here and take your fish from you. No one is telling you your wrong. If you didn't like it, stay away. Don't contribute to this thread. Just move on to the next one. Why reply at all?!?

Myka didn't start this to be a debate about whether a list should be made or not. The list was simply being made as a GUIDE for people to learn from. If its done right, it can be a great tool to go along with the others we have already on this site. Instead this thread has just gone WAY off topic and become a stupid debate about what would go on what list and why there shouldn't be a list at all.

It only got off topic because people didn't like the idea...well you didn't have to get involved.

:laluot_05:

One person can save the world?? I give up. Explain.



So that's where the lionfishes came from.

hey about your frags
 

are they still for sale?what type?
send a pic?send a pm also in reply?

saltwaterseahorses

Evan as usual you outshine most of us older folks... please always stay positive, as a young gentleman like you speaking out does mean something. Next time I'm in the store I'll have to bring you something.

I would really love to start this thread again and actually do a list!:wink:

I do find the guide most helpful especially for endangered fish. I had no idea they were collecting endangered species and I as a hobbyist will not ever buy an endangered species. That is my first and foremost concern so if the list specifies this I will always consult it. I now know to look for this on my own sicne it has been brought up.

Karazy I think it was me that started stirring this thread up and I do apologize but I have noticed lately that a few members get annoyed when their advice isn't taken as gospel truth when in fact it is just advice to be taken or not at the posters discretion.
Having a *red* list on canreef may make some feel obligated to harass anyone who stocks or attempts a fish on the list

As a newbie to the sw fish hobby I would like to say that this list would be a great reference tool , this does not mean that I would follow to the last letter but somewhere to start my research on a new fish or invert. Also i would like to add that I have noticed that Myka & many others are always willing to offer a valued opinion & it is much appreciated. It means more to me to gain knowledge through my own & others questions on this forum than trial & error . By the way the needle that broke the camels back???????

needle in haystack
the straw that broke camels back