Tencats, how can you see her there in that glass box? My god, you must so want to get her back?? :cry:

If you need her fostered, I will do that and I assure you, she will find the very best forever home.

Popcorn was rescued, not by a pet store, but by an animal rescue group. The pet store helps us adopt out animals. It would be nice if we had our own facilities to adopt them out from, but we do not, and we'd rather spend what money we have on the direct care of the animals. Our rescue has been in operation for over 10 years, and will continue to operate with, or without, the pet store. If one of our animals lands itself at the SPCA, it is returned to us, not the pet store. The pet store is simply acting as an adoption center for us.

Everyone's making lots of money, that's all I know. The breeders aren't these altruistic pet versions of Mother Theresa who lay down their lives for the welfare of all four-legged beasties. No...they're in it to make money! Sure sure, they may love dogs. Yada yada yada. But I think they BREED for money. They are a business.

So is *edit*. If they truly are calling potential dog owners and trying to determine the appropriateness of a particular match, I think that's just fantastic.

But I do also hate the puppy windows. I second that...amen brother. Or sister. I forget who said it. And the kitty cages also make me sad. The sad, lonely looks they give you, desperate for attention....*sigh*

I am serious tencats. Take Popcorn back. Out of there. I can honestly tell you I will care for her better. Please. PM me.

Hey everyone,

Great debate and all that but I like Canreef and would rather it stay online, so if you could leave store names out of it that would be fabulous. Don't put any asterisks in with most of the letters or anything because then I have to edit it out anyway, if you could just leave out the name that would be great, I don't have to camp out here overnight. My runny nose and aching back salute you!

Thanks and continue on :biggrin:

the windows suck yes they are imprisoned looking on at us with those sad eyes while we move about and forget about them shortly after as we begin to think what we will do for dinner somebody pass me a big brick we may throw at these windows

i have nothing more to say, im depressed, its time for work anyway:sad:

Sorry Christy for all the editing....:redface: I guess I'll stay away from the monkey shop of horrors then...........
:razz:

It's a good thing you are a cat person... Drew.:lol:

There is an awesome looking cat in there right now that needs a rescue, it's ears were frozen off.

I'm not sure, but is this what you got out of this thread Drew, or were you being facetious??? :biggrin:

There are a few pet shops (bigger named ones) that do work with rescue organizations to help adopt out animals. Usually if a dog goes to one of these stores they are in a large X-pen or metal crate/cage. They are brought there on a Sat or Sun (near the start of the day) by their foster family and are picked up that same day. The cats sometimes will stay longer. At these stores it is clearly advertised that the animal is from such and such organization and their adoptions fees and application process applies (which is usually 2 pages long, like the ones you see at the spca) and is subject to approval from the rescue organization. Each of these animals usually have a clipboard (like the ones you see in the spca) with the animals name and information on it. Also (as far as I'm aware) most dogs/cats from legit rescue organizations adoption fees should be about $200-$350 not like the "window" dogs you see being sold for $1000 and more.

I bought my rottweiler from what many might concider a backyard breeder 9 years ago. I bought her after looking at many that were CKC registered and not at all great dogs imo. (Super long docked tails, Dewclaws not done, skittish and not very confident parents just to name a couple of things.) This wasn't what I expected from breeders who are registering dogs with the CKC. My dog is now 9 years old and is in excellent health. The vet allway's comments on how great of shape she's in for an old gal.

I'd buy the right dog from a backyard breeder any day of the week.

Cats and dogs and all animals really deserve to be treated well. I think for anyone's value set to truly be meaningful you can't apply said values discriminately. At this point in my life I choose to not have a dog in my life, and yet I have cats, but I would be bothered equally by bad treatment of dogs as I would of cats. And yet, I put up with derogatory comments from friends (and family members, for that matter) who consider themselves "dog lovers" but think nothing about joking about killing cats or something. That sort of thing truly disgusts me..

It's okay Tony, we all eventually progress from cats to dogs....:lol:

Gary, it's not about that. I had backyard puppies many years ago. It drove me nuts to make sure they went to the right homes etc.

Just so you know there are places, usually large pet stores or doggy daycares (like Tailz) that will let you hold adoption days for free at their centers. With enough volunteers you can usually adopt out a few dogs through one of these events. Also ask your local news station if your organization can do a segment showcasing the animals for you have up for adoption. In Edmonton Global lets scars showcase a couple of dogs every Sat. morning towards the end of their news broadcast. It's great publicity and it's free :biggrin:

I think the idea is to try to insure that the person/store selling the dog isn't just selling it make money, but that they are also honestly looking for a good home for the dog as well. I should also note that no matter where the dog/cat comes from once they are in this world they deserve to be treated humanly and given every chance possible for a good life. Also I can't stress enough please spay and neuter your pets!

Please.

Selling is the key word right?

I know what you're saying Deb, but I allway's hear people putting so much stock into the greatness of CKC and AKC registration. I grew up spending my weekends with my dad at the GSD club here in Calgary and seen some of the crapiest dogs known to man be sold for huge bucks because of their bloodline and papers. I've also seen some very well known breeders and trainers destroy great dogs for simple flaws in apperance. Also, so many of these dogs from so many great breeders are not the same calliber of dogs we seen in the past.(As recently as the late 70's)

I myself will avoid buying from breeders and petstores in the future and will seek out only non-registered dogs. I think the well known breeders are in it for the money to be had just as much as the next buisness. Many backyard breeders hope to recover what it's costed them on vet care and such and are happy when their puppies find a great home.

Just my opinion though. :biggrin:

Selling or adopting out either way you can usually tell who's just trying to make a quick buck by how much they charge. Scars charges $250 which includes up to date shoots/vet check, microchip, and spay/neuter. I also believe Taliz and Dogspaw give discounts to animals from rescue organizations.

That's okay. We spend every other weekend with a breeder who pretty much gives up her life for dogs. I guess it is easy to see another side. :biggrin:

Exactly. A $250 adoption fee is nothing.

I hope that tencats can get the dog back for a proper rescue. If not, I doubt I will be able to get the dog. If anyone can, let me know, what is the price? I can definitely foster this dog.

Amen.

My wife breeds birds and only gives them the best foods and care. It is only a hobby for her as she spends more money on the birds than she makes while some breeders she knows sell off their'' bad ''birds without disclosing anything or do inbreeding which causes problems. So it all depends on the individual person and if they are doing it for the passion or profit.

A few years ago I would have never set foot in one of those pet stores (not even to buy fish), other than to loudly express my views on them selling mutts from puppy mills. However, times have changed, they've made room and built kennels (with their own money)for rescue animals to be adopted. Ya, they still sell mutts from breeders, but because they work with the rescue's, they've had eye openers and are more selective from where they buy their foo-foo dogs from. Its a step in the right direction. Of couse their making money, but I suppose we should boycott the vet clinic's because they make money off animals too. Our animals are only in those cages for a week or 2, and if they aren't adopted, then they come back to us. If they appear stressed, they come back sooner. Are those cages that different than the ones at the SPCA or Humane Society? where they would be there indefinately? That cage is alot better than the ditch they were found in! and its only temporary. I rescued a cat(not spayed) from an SPCA that sat in a metal cage for a year! How is that okay?!?! I've also rescued a kitten (not spayed) from an SPCA who sat in a metal cage for 4 months without the leg amputation surgery she needed. Not all SPCA's, Humane Society's or Animal Rescue's are created equal. If Popcorn is not adopted shortly, she will be coming back to us. You are more than welcome to go and adopt her if you can provide her with a forever home! As I said before, go look at www.petsforlife.ca and see how many we save, and our adoption procedures, before you pass judgement. I don't understand how rescuing animals and adopting them out is a bad thing. Yes we do it thru a pet store, do you have a better idea? Or just critisisms? You gonna build us a big adoption center, and provide us with the staff and volunteers to run it? We'd welcome it! But until then, we're gonna go with what works. And if the adoption fee's are a bit high for you, take a look at our vet bills some time! Rescuing animals isn't cheap, they don't all arrive spayed, neutered, vaccinated and in perfect health.

I'm a cat person too. I've had my two cats for 12 and 10 years. We had dogs when I was a kid but I never bonded with any of them. I prefer my cats over a dog any day. I hear you on the friends/family and their "jokes" about cats. :rolleyes:

Responses
 

So far from watching all the responses to this thread I think we can all agree on the passion we all have for the well being of animals. I think its also fair to say that there are no doubts that there are good and bad in all pet shops, breeders, and even shelters. I think we can all agree that that this thread has sparked a lot of debate and interest..Sorry Der Iron Chef I guess there are a lot of lazy minds here. Interesting how many responses you put in.:biggrin: So other than some emotions that ride high at times it is nice to see that there is so much concern about the care of all our animals. Cats, Dogs, Fish whatever..Thats why there are so many great pics of them on this website. We all have the freedom to agree or disagree with what is on any thread started by any member that is what Forum is all about. I may not agree with some of the censorship but I understand the staff's position. So long as we dont resort to name calling this is one of the best forums around. So keep your frowns upside down and have a great day.:biggrin:

so i have a question. I have six dogs. A Catahoula couger hound from louisianna, three border collies and two blue heelers. the hound and the two oldest border collies are allowed in the house. the other three have never set foot in my house. ( just trying to give you some background). not that i dont let them in my house but they simply are uncomfortable inside. They are working dogs ( I have a ranch and there is nothing more useful then good dogs). my hound has one eye and half of one ear from a well aimed whack from a couger a couple years back. He was doing his job and what he is bred for. he loves my young daughter and she loves him, so he is retiring in the comfort of our home. my two older collies breed every couple years and always these pups are taken by other ranchers who utilise them for work (usually after being with their parents long enough to learn a thing or two) I dont charge anything for the dogs, but if the pups dont work out for the ranchers, (because they are too timid or as we say not "cowy" enough they are brought back to me and i have to take these dogs to the local livestock feed sales store so they can sell them.( not a pet store) Its that or i would have twenty dogs! I dont breed becuse i think its fun or becuase im too cheap to get my dogs fixed 90% of the pups are very, very useful, and are having great lives doing what they are bred and raised to do. there is nothing better then seeing a dog doing what it loves. which is what a lot of people forget. before getting a dog for looks, think about its suitability in your life and how your lifestyle is going to affect the dog. Now my question for those "backyard breeders" dissaprovers - am i running a puppy mill? because im not a certified breeder. not one of my dogs has ever had a hip problem or any disease found with " certified pure bred breeders". My heeler even "slipped one past the goalie" once and I always get comments on the border collie / heeler pups. Every one of the five pups is a great working or family dog. Call me insensitive but i dont have the time or energy to be finding out about the health and welfare of every dog that has come from me. i like hearing about them but that is the extent. I am totally against people breeding dogs for the purpose of selling them to pet stores, but they are just the middle man. you cant say that alot of pure bred dogs from breeders dont end up in the same situation as a cros bred mutt from someones house. They gotta come from somewhere. I STILL SEE NO PROOF OF SAID "PUPPY MILL"?
now i just got a quick story - i was in langly a month ago with my two heelers ( they pretty much live in my truck) i cant drive into the field without them getting in the back. i stayed at my cousins house in the "burbs" for two days, all the time my dogs where in the box of my truck, at night and all day except for the couple times i took them for runs. If they arent working they sleep and lay in the truck they like it and they protect it fiercly. Now my cousins neighbor had the nerve to call the SPCA about my dogs that where being treated sooooooooooooooooooo badly in the back of my truck. I simply told the SPCA lady and my cousins nosy neighbour that if they felt so strongly that they where more then welcome to try and drop the tailgate but if the valued their arms i suggested they didnt. That is what those dogs are bred to do. They are not mean dogs. my young daughter plays with them all the time. But they know there job. my point is before preaching about pet stores and puppy mills consider your own actions towards the reason you are purchasing said dog and how in a large circle in one way or the other you do support their BREEDING and before you cut someone down because of how you feel they are treating their dogs take a moment and think before letting the accusations fly. But i guess everyone who has ever bought a dog for a thousand bucks from a dealer has had it live for fifty years, had never had a problem with them and has never taken that dog to a shelter! By the way my heelers are having pups in april. The pups are already spoken for. Call the SPCA

Out of curiosity what are your adoption fees? Scars is $250 for any dog no matter how high their vet bill got. Which btw for some dogs their vet bills total in the thousands of dallars range.

I paid $135 for my rescue, more then worth it for a great companion.

As I noted before a true puppy mill stacks the dogs (10-30 dogs, usually small cute popular breeds) in cages on top of one another only letting the dogs out from the cage to breed. They also charge lots of $$$ for their dogs and they like to tell people they can cross breed whatever type of dog you want so you can get that certain look your after. I know this for a fact because we've rescued dogs from places like this.

Since it sounds like you are not doing this then I would say no you are not running a puppy mill, probably no were near it.

Maybe I'm confused but IMO there is nothing wrong with breeding dogs backyard or certified if #1 you are doing it for the right reasons #2 you are trying to find proper homes for them, and (most importantly) #3 you are taking good care of the dogs you are breeding. Good care to me means: if they are in kennels/dog runs you take them for walks/let them run around in a backyard/feild, brush them, play with them, give them water and food, and let the dogs know they are loved.

When someone is breeding animals just to make money, they don't care who the animal goes home with as long as they get paid, and they keep the dog in inhumane conditions, that's when I have a big problem with it.

I would also like to say that if you have a boy dog who isn't fixed and you let him run around impregnating others then take no responsibillity for the puppies, get your dog neutered. If you have a girl dog and she comes home pregnant and you don't want to deal with the puppies PLEASE don't take the puppies out back and shoot them in the head one by one (yes this happens, sometimes we make it out to recuse the puppies before it does, and sometimes we don't :cry: ) just spay your dog, and you wont have to worry about it.

I feel the need to clarify something here. When I say a reputable breeder, I am not sanctioning any CKC or AKC breeder as inclusively being reputable because of said memberships or registrations. A reputable breeder is just that; a breeder with a good reputation for long term successful and ethical breeding. If someone performs this type of breeding in their backyard, fine. You don't need to be a huge commercial kennel, you need to be a thoughtful ethical person with more concern for the fate of your breed and the fate of your pups in particular. You give more concern to these things than you do profit. The good breeders I know do not generally even see profit, they mostly cover expenses of something they love doing.
What we're against is the commercial breeding that puts health/long term quality aside for the sake of making a buck. This is doing the dogs and the owners a disservice and nobody but the breeder ends up winning. I don't care where you breed, it's how you do it. Get vet checks, screen genetic diseases and try your best to not propagte known issues. This is being responsible. If you miss something in screening, be propared to stand behind your sale for the life of the dog.

Can I spin the wheel Bob???
Sorry, couldnt resist....;)

Great posts by the way from most of ya'll! I agree that breeders should take responsibility. When I got Zeus it was like getting interrogated at Guatanomo, which is how it should be!

[quote=UnderWorldAquatics;303952]Can I spin the wheel Bob???
Sorry, couldnt resist....;)

QUOTE]

:lol: You know... after I worte that, I was tempted to add "Sorry for going all Bob Barker on you" :lol:

Well said.

Yes, very well said Brad. Backyards have nothing to do with the term. :lol:

I would extend my own personal definition of puppy mills to include breeders who produce inventory to stock pet stores.

And I honestly can't come to terms with a pet store profiting from rescue animals. Is the option there to adopt directly from the rescue org?

The head office of the store said the dog would be moved to better housing if required.

So we all hope things go well for her.

Happy tails to you all. Or no tails, whatever...:lol:

"And I honestly can't come to terms with a pet store profiting from rescue animals. Is the option there to adopt directly from the rescue org?"

How do they profit from this? Other than selling associated product.

Not all stores are all that bad
 

Years ago me and my wife bred chihuahua's. This was never done for the sake of a buck... The first few batches did go to a pet store. And much to my surprise, they would not take them without an "inspection". They shop owner came out to the house, met the dogs and looked at what we had for the pups. As well, he was very clear that they would not take the dogs until 10 weeks (not that we wanted them to go sooner).

The only reason we stopped going through the pet store was the fact that the pet store was not to particular on who they would SELL them to. The last 2 batches we sold ourselves so we could screen the potential buyers. To this day (8 years later) we have most of those that bought stay in contact.

These dogs were bred not for the money, but becuase raising little pups can be rewarding. And most stores WILL NOT BUY FROM MILLS. Usually if word gets around that they sell anything from a puppy mill, there business is over. It is just not worth it for a store to loose most of it's business to dave a few hundred bucks. Think about the way you buy fish, do you see any stores wanting to buy cyanide caught fish?


All I am getting at, is that the stores are mostly quite good, and most breeders do it because the love doing it. I hate to say it, but most of the problems out there are from irresponsible BUYERS. We turned away 3 times as many people as we actually sold to. Far too many people see a cute puppy, buy it, and then are unable to correctly care for it.
I don't blame the stores, or the breeders. How many times have there been complaints about some store selling a fish that would not work in someone's tank, and everyone blames the store. What about the guy buying the fish without doing a little research FIRST. Same goes for dogs. I have never seen a store keep a huge dog in a pen for any length of time, but yet I have a 150 lbs dog living next door to me in a yard that is 15' X 20' and never let out.
Let's put some blame where it belongs, there is a reason that all of these "rescue" groups exist in the first place. And they rarely have to "rescue" from a pet store.

Well wolf, according to Emily, you are a puppy mill. Congrats :shocked!:

I'm pretty sure that after 6 pages of this, you STILL haven't read all the words. Please stop putting words in other people's mouths. I've just read all the posts again, and nowhere does EmilyB say that wolf is a puppy mill.

IMO Wolf is, or was at that time, an inexperienced hobbyist breeder that has since determined that selling pups to the pet store is not a great idea. Whether he does any genetic screening isn't mentioned, or if this is required with these dogs. In time, he may end up being a reputable breeder. Or may not. Time determines this.
Until then, stop telling people what YOU think EmilyB is thinking. So far you're wrong in most instances. And I know Emily, if she wants to say something about wolf, she'll do it herself!