"If a person was running a skimmer on there system that was just able to keep up with removing the nutrients out of there reef or running at 100% efficiency without them knowing so, wouldn't the results of using this product do more harm than good?"


I believe your are asking:
"If your skimmer is already working at a maximum load, won't the product cause the skimmer to be over loaded?


No. Skimmer performance is based on contact time, bubble size and also the type of organic material you are trying to skim out. Bacteria cells have a very high affinity to the surface of a gas-liquid interface. So efficiency is improved when you are trying to skim out bacterial flock. You will notice that your skimmer is producing more skimmate when using this product.

I started this system on Saturday and I have already noticed that my skimmate is thicker.
By the way, as I have already posted ,I have took pics of some test frags (from Chilliwackreefer) and recorded prams. before I started and will post updated pics. every Sunday, starting next week...

Does anyone that has been using this have an update? Maybe some pictures?:mrgreen:

I started using it last wednesday, can't really say if it makes a difference yet or not, although my yellow fiji leather appears to love it

What I have noticed, is my skimmer (a berlin xl) will no longer produce a wet skimmate and it's turned up as high as it can go. The skimmate looks kind of like baby diahrea, same consistency and same yellow brown colour and lots of it :lol:

Pics???
 

OK anybody have any before and after pics out there??? Somebody must have something ...........

This tread is almost five weeks old ........

Tangman wrote over two weeks ago:
So any chance on getting a look at those pics yet:question:

Sorry ,got very busy, wasn't able to take pics. after one week, but the results after one week were amazing, you could see the color improvement every day.
But then I ran into trouble ... my skimmer is very underpowered and I have a crushed coral substrate ,which was very dirty( a lot of organic waste) and by adding this product ,you are adding bacteria and nutrients (fuel to feed the bacteria) that bind to other nutrients that are already in your tank and then get skimmed out , creating a low nutrient environment. I was not able to do this because my skimmer is too small and my system was too nutrient rich in the first place. As a result of all this I had a very large algae bloom that I am dealing with, so I have stopped using the product until I get a new skimmer and clean up the rich nutrient situation. I didn't have a algae problem before I started, but its all about balance and when I started the product, it didn't take very long before my system, my skimmer in particular, couldn't handle it.
I will try this again once I remedy the situation

I've had the most growth I've ever seen since using this product, however I have experienced some bleaching on a couple of acro pieces. The number of new growth tips is astounding, and I guarantee it's due to the RF.

A question I would like to ask PolypLab is: Can I stop using the RF-Fuel? I find that this carbon source is most likely what's bleaching my SPS. I can't confirm that but would rather try and avoid this happening to other pieces. I would still continue to dose the other 3.

Any impact?

REEF-RESH started 10-MAY-2006
 

Just wanted to chime in that I've started using it yesterday!

A follow up to my experience with bleaching. I found out that two of my acros had Acro Eating FWs :( and not because of the carbon source of RR. I removed those two pieces and basically threw them in the garbage. None of my other acros seem to be affected. Funny though since I haven't added any new pieces or fish for a few months now.

I won the "Not so perfect tank" contest Polyp Labs had a few months ago. While I used the product for 5 weeks, I noticed a big improvement in the colours of my sps but since I ran out of The System and stop dosing, my purple monster frags and some lime green/teal stags have lost most of their colour and they appear to be dieing. Unless you plan to use The System "forever" I do not suggest using this product. I stopped using the product because it would cost me 180$ every 5 weeks on my 450g total water volume setup. I was impressed that it worked so well but now I wish I hadn't even entered the contest... sound harsh? Yes it is... but Im the one seeing what damage its caused to my system. If someone needs me to answer questions I'll glady do so.

oh oh, can i say it ?

Go ahead.

That is exactly why I didn't start using this product... Hell It took five years for GF to talk me into making a lifetime commitment... :wink:

I apologize Dark, no offense to you.

Thank you for the time to tell us about your experience.

I would be better off not opening my mouth, but i just get my panties in a bunch about this type of (filtration?)stuff...Cheers, hopefully your livestock is recovering...most of all, welcome to canreef :)

I and several others (like vanreef above) had posted a few questions regarding it, IMO, they were either not answered, skirted or outright changed. If you take the time to re-read each question, youll see what i mean.

One of them was a question i asked related to the problem you are experiencing...
"Tell me, if you do not feed these bacteria a source of carbon, what happens ? "
The reply was answered with a re-phrased question....."If you don't add an appropriate carbon source, What happens ?"
The secret word there was "appropriate"....

The answer was,
"The bacteria will stay in a planktonic state and can't form biofilms.
Bacteria use cell to cell communications to control gene expression amongst the cells. (This mechanisms is called quorom sensing). Some bacterial species use this to initiate biofilm formation."

With my little layman sized brain, this means....Like in your scenario, they simply die and pollute your tank.("planktonic" seems like a cool word for it tho :p )
What i cant figure out is why would they die, if the food source is primarily nutrients in your tank ?

Whats the difference what kind of life form it takes , wether its a fish or bacteria? In any way,you feed in addition to what you were, bio load has increased and so has pollution.

I dunno, i still havent met a nutrient thats dodges my water changes.

Bah ! i got a headache.

I have followed your thread on another board, and you mentioned it helped the colors out a bit.
In your opinion, could you also say that running at thier "recommended parameters" this may have also had something to do with the improved coloration?

Thanks for your input.

I guess your reef liked the reef resh and then reacted negatively to not getting it...kinda like feeding a dog steak for awhile, then watching him go back to dry dog food Ha Ha! It must have done some good while you were using it if your corals had that much of a decline after.
All I know is that I do a 20% water change every 1-2 months, I feed my fish and corals alot, I have ALWAYS had nitrate readings around 10-20, and ever since I have used this product they have been at ZERO. This reason alone has made it worth the money, not withstanding the sps growth ive had in my mixed reef and other benefits

I say if it is working for you and you don't mind continuing using the product... then go for it... But I would caution you in stopping using the product abruptly... you should probably wean it off slowly. I would probably ask Polyp lab again (as I did earlier) about the potential problem with stopping this product abruptly... maybe ask them to stop using it on one of their "test tanks" after 6minths to a year of use.

You have to consider too that if you stop using any product, it's going to have negative effects on your reef. It's really no different than when they introduced the protein skimmer. It was just another product to improve the quality of your tank. If you decided to stop using your protein skimmer one day you would see an enormous change in your reef. I'm not siding with anyone here but I'm always open to people who want to pour their time and money into creating a product that improves the condition of my tank. I haven't used this product yet nor will I until there is a lot more case studies and it's less expensive for larger tanks but it has done what Polyp Lab said it was going to do according to most. I definitely don't like the idea of corals bleaching or dying off when you discontinue the use of it though. Personally, I think it's an interesting idea but I'm going to monitor it's progress before I decide to get on board. I know these topics can get kind of heated but hopefully no one tries to jump down my throat for my comments. I'm just trying to be neutral right now but still interested in seeing how this idea evolves.

This is a good point!!

Actually its a lot different, a protein skimmer is a basic filtrations system not a additive/food source. you would be more on the ball comparing it to feeding mysis instead of a skimmer, That is the biggest problem is people are thinking of this as a basic component instead of an additive which it is. now I have used several additives over the years and not one has had really amazing effects when I used it but at the same time I never noticed a difference when I stopped using it.

Steve

Well if you remove a protein skimmer, you're 'adding' Nitrates.

Either way, you're changing the water chemistry and that is what results in good/bad changes to the livestock.

waste removal
 

i don't believe you are "adding" nitrates per se. Protein skimmer is a form of filtration that is able to remove certain types of particles (bio waste) before it breaks down further in your tank water column. So you are actually changing the water composition which will subsequently change the water chemistry if the waste is not removed prior to it breaking down further into ammonia, nitrite, nitrate.

I believe what Steve is trying to say (and correct me if I'm wrong Steve) is that one should not compare this product to a protein skimmer because it would be like comparing the effects of removing live rock or wet/dry filter or canister filter from your aquarium. These are methods of filtration, and are not a form of additive.

On the same token, it would seem like this product is a mix of both a form of filtration and an additive. If I understand it correctly, you are feeding your system a type of bacteria that is a more efficient in nutrient export thus creating a nutrient poor environment. While simultaneously you feed your corals with different amino acids and vitamins and other coral nutrition. So who knows???

There are many valid points from different people who are using and speculating on the effectiveness of this product. But I feel it would be fair to let more people experiment with the product further and post their observations as time goes on. Opinions do matter especially when they are from very respected and experienced members of this hobby but (and I cautiously continue to write because I do not want to offend) they are also based on past experiences and therefore they are also biased.

Like any other thing that we use in our daily lives, there will be pros and cons and I don't believe this product will be the exception to that norm. From the posts of observed growth and improved colors, it would appear to be working well for many people so there is a good likelihood that there is a benefit to using this product. We should try to learn more about the beneficial and detrimental effects of the product if we don't understand it; we may never know when a product will bring us to the next level of reefkeeping. Until that determination is made, like many other products in this industry, it may need to evolve and be refined as to how it is used and managed. (IE weaning your corals off the product as opposed to a cold turkey approach if you do decide to stop using this product.)
To sum up my keyboarding diarrhea,
1) give this product a fair chance to mature and develope.
2) learn with it and if possible, learn from it.

no need for correction, bang on, I also agree with the rest of the post, I was just to lazy to type that much.. you know the over worked and under paid thing:mrgreen:

Steve

My experience with reef-resh
I started these products 8 week ago in my 175g fishless reef tank.

After the first 2 weeks I had out of control bio films, yellow brown snot everywhere polyp lab said it was probably because there were no fish to eat it.

After 6 weeks there wasn't any noticable difference with my tank. I still had a few spots of cyano, macro algae was still growing and there was no change in my coral growth or colour. Keep in mind that there are no fish in this tank. The only food was the reef-resh products and some mysis, spot fed to my open brain every 2nd or 3rd night and I was doing 20g water changes every 2 weeks. The christmas tree worms were the only things to show better growth.

After 6 weeks I stopped using the stuff and now with the exception of yellow/brown snot lingering there is no bleaching of corals or cyano exploding everywhere. A waste of money for me :redface: Oh well, no harm no foul.

Does any one want to buy a few months worth of reef-resh :lol:

What was eating the yellow brown snot before you added anything ?

The stuff is the bacteria that i was adding, it just kept building up I guess. It made for some very slimey, thick skimmate. It is slowly disappearing now thank goodness.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...iofilm0001.jpg

I get this kind of bacteria growth when I over do it with the vinegar in kalkwasser.
It only shows up in the grow tank (no fish). I vacuum it off along with the snail poops.

11 pages now and still no before and after images :rolleyes:

Same idea, although I've been assured that the fuel isn't vinegar, it is a form of acetate

.

Growth looks normal for 7 weeks, could be better could be worse.. all depends on lighting. as for color to tell you the truth the first pic looked way better be for you started, the second pick almost no change maybe slightly better in the before.. but both corals had better polyp extension in the before pics and overall looked better to me.

Steve

I am thinking the same as Stevo. The before pics have better color and polyp extension.
Though I will admit it is some nice growth in 7 weeks.

I guess I should have qualified my previous statement. My system was only running for about 4 months before I started RR and IMO the growth has accelerated since the RR. Before that I had a 40g for about a year and had slow growth in that time. It may just be that my old system was inadequate and my new one had not settled in yet or the corals were just getting used to it. That may have been normal growth for 7 weeks I’m not sure, I don’t have anything to compare it to. As I mentioned the growth of new branches is at a rate I have not seen in my limited experience.

As I also mentioned the color has only changed in a bird’s nest and a red moti cap not the two pictured. The new color is amazing, the cap went from a dull red to a vibrant deep dark red.

I am not arguing for or against RR I am taking a wait and see approach, on my system and others. Since my system is so new I may never know. I just posted since Rich said no before and after pics in all this time.

It looks like your corals were doing very well to begin with. Looks great. That's pretty good growth for the pink acro without any additives. The growth from Jan to Mar was quite substantial considering it was a new tank.


Also, the growth of your other Acros on this page was pretty amazing for just a couple of months of growth.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&pagenumber=10

That's a good point Sam, these two probably aren’t the best to use as an example since they are my largest and fastest growers. I made my observations from all my 30+ corals and just threw these two pics up since Rich asked to see some before and after pics.


I’m starting to regret posting anything at all, now I know why no one else has. :mrgreen:

Any updates?

missed this befor.. but Sodium acetate (an edible natural form) is also knowen as Sodium acetate trihydrate; Acetic acid, sodium salt trihydrate.

Hmmm Acetic acid, is also know as Vinager, and sence I can't see them using any of the other acetates in tanks it must be sodium acetate.

Steve

I thought I'd bring this thread back to life with my own experience with this product. I started using it in the first week of January 07. Here are some before & after shots. After having used it for 5 months I am not sure I'd want to stop.

Stylophora Dec 06

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/dat...ylo_Oct_06.jpg

same coral May 07

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/dat...ylo_May_07.jpg

A. Millepora early Jan 07

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/dat..._prostrata.jpg

Same piece May 07

http://www.canreef.com/photopost/dat...k_mille_22.jpg

Wow, pictures sure tell the story don't they... :)

I started using it in March and can see better colour too. I didn't get any before pictures though.