Often the person "judging" is simply giving good advice in the wrong way. I was just outside talking to my Border Collie about this, and as you know, they're pretty smart.
He pointed out the BBQ. Let me tell you about my BBQ journey. I like to eat meat. A lot. So some years ago, I decided to buy a BBQ. I'm cheap when it comes to things like that, so I went to crappy tire and bought the season end floor model for $79. No assembly required!!
I took it home (had to buy a tank on the way home) and fired it up. Cooked me a burger that was delicious. It was the best BBQ burger in the history of burgers. Overall, a very successful BBQ. But as time passed, I realized I couldn't cook a lot of burgers, and it got to hot to cook fish, and it rusted up after a couple seasons. It was an eyesore. But it was mine, and could still cook a successful burger.
One day I was out shopping and came across a shiny stainless BBQ. $500!!! But it has 4 burner controls, radiant heating, side burners, digital displays, etc. And it looks nice!
I bought it, took it home (came with everything I needed including tank) and fired it up. Yup, another epic burger. It was delicious. Montreal steak spice really rocks a burger. It was no better than the old BBQ burger though. Equally successful at cooking burgers.
But, and here's the value added part. It can cook lots of burgers Like a dozen or more at a time. I can bake a salmon, or cook a roast. And I can boil corn on the side and keep it all warm until everything it done. It's shiny, did I mention that?? It's still shiny, and when I walk by and see it on my deck, I like it. I like that I have a nicer than crap $79 sale BBQ. It impresses my BBQ friends. It rocks, it rolls. It sings and dances. I love my BBQ. Best damn $500 I ever spent.
Now, this is the point where I got what I paid for. I paid for consumer satisfaction, that my BBQ, in addition to successfully cooking burgers, can do so much more. It makes me happy. 2 years later, I'm still happy. I still love my BBQ. I don't envy other BBQs and don't wish I had a better one. It's awesome.

So, if you come to Brad's BBQ forum, and ask which BBQ to buy, I'm going to tell you to avoid that crappy $79 BBQ. It's sh1t. The $500 is way better. It is. It can't cook that burger any better, but it's way better in so many other ways. So my advice is save for the BBQ you need, not settle for what you can afford right now. You won't like that advice, and you'll argue about it. But the advice comes from a Border Collie, and they're smarter than anything. You should listen. Unless you really need a burger now and are content not having all that other stuff. In the end though, you almost always get what you pay for, in some form or fashion. It's not about the burger, it's about the happy.

P.S. Rig says you're welcome.

But you still need to fill a tank. I would have got the NG version... I guess you got what you paid for! :turn-l:

Reading that brought tears of joy Brad. Thanks :) Made my day (in the forum). That's how people should explain it instead of the "bashing" part. And give my regards to Rig :D When I stop by in Victoria, I will try to stop by for a burger (if you let me after all these :razz:); and you can't definitely love/eat more meat than an south asian guy :wink:

Since I don't have gas on my street, I went the right way :)

minimum 1kg daily. If you can afford that as a student, you can afford Mitras -lol

Brad! Best bbq speech I've ever read. Infact, best. Post you have ever made here on canreef.. lol just kidding.

You should be a bbq salesman.

Can you gives us a food metaphor speech in regards to what happens when you buy the more expensive item because you think it's better, but it turns out to be worse then the lower prices option.

Thanks. Look forward to reading brad's bbq part 2:biggrin:

I'd like to get more input from the collie on stuff

Haha he's never wrong

It's true!

You should ask Rig's advice before you post more often Brad.

Excellent analogy.

I too went with cheaper (but still decent brand bbqs like Broil Mate and Broil King). Now I have a Weber E320 LP, LOOOOOOOOOVE it. So yeah, I know what you mean. Now I want to replace my two Weber Q300s with another E320!!!

I read a lot of posts on Canreef and its NOT that often that people simply recommend the high end, most expensive equipment when someone asks about what to buy. In fact, far more often, members will recommend what they have in their tanks, which is mostly mid-range equipment.

mrhasan,

You are trying to win an unwinnable argument and repeating yourself ad nauseam (i.e. Latin term for something unpleasurable that has continued "to [the point of] nausea".)

Really, it is NOT all hype. Sometimes equipment that is expensive is really worth the extra money to the buyers. MOST buyers are NOT getting it just because its expensive. MOST members here are too smart with their hard-earned money (if being a Reefer & being "too smart with their money is not oxymoronic) to throw away money on buying something because of hype. One reason we are on this site and other fish sites is to do our research before making a purchase. If you are soooo against people "buying" the hype, its not reefers who go online to ask and answer questions. Its actually the newbie with a big bank account who goes into his/her LFS and tells the salesperson "I don't know anything about reefing but I want a top of the line reef and money is not an issue" who then gets all the expensive toys because they never bothered to research what they actually need. Its almost always newbies who get "ripped off" like this, whereas most Canreefers who come on this board and ask valid questions before making their purchasing choices usually make a decision that is right for them.

While I LOVE a bargain more than almost anybody I know, and most of my equipment is used if its high end (i.e. Deltec recirc skimmers), and the rest is the affordable Chinese knock-offs you love (Jebao & BM) or DIY (my LED lights), if someone was to off me an awesome deal on a Bubble King skimmer or a Radion light at a price I can't refuse, I'd be all over that. And guess what, SO WOULD YOU!!!!

From my analysis of your postings on this thread, its NOT the brands or the equipment, per se, that you are railing about. It's purely the PRICE of these high end equipment when buying retail that has you all worked up.

Seriously, if you could pick up a Bubble King lightly used from a reefer getting out at the price of a new Bubble Magus, YOU WOULD DO IT IN A SECOND. And you'd probably keep quiet about it until everyone forgets about this thread.

It is NOT that you love Jebao or Bubble Magus so much, that is what you can afford and the price range you want to spend on your equipment. That's fine. I like this same low-end price range myself. But if either of us found a great deal on the top-end equipment, we'd be fighting over who gets to buy it first and don't fool yourself into thinking you wouldn't.

So that is what I have distilled from your many posts and repeated statements in this thread. It's really NOT about being POed at the hype or the "You get what you pay for", it's a "Bubble King is out of my price range and I only want to spend BM-level money on my equipment" type rant.

Personally, I prefer spending on livestock rather than super high end equipment like new Bubble King skimmers. But if someone was to contact me with a great deal on their BK skimmer, I'd be all over that. In the meantime, super happy with my inexpensive, used Deltec skimmers (which were top of the line before BK came out).

Not a personal attack, since you & I share similar thoughts about our personal price range. Just summarizing up my thoughts after following this highly repetitive thread over the last couple of days.

It was amusing for a while, but...

Sincerely,

Anthony "not a personal attack" Shieh

(Note: Also a meat-loving, bbqing-nut reefer from South Asia - Malaysia to be exact)

Nicely put Anthony. Thanks for the awesome insight :D

+1... Great posts (and a pleasure not to read bad grammer) by both Anthony and Brad.

And as for BBQ's I have both types. A cheapie crappy tire type for home and a higher end one (Broil King, probably more mid range) for our lake cabin. Might not make sense to some, but at home we don't BBQ much, whereas at the lake we often have larger groups of friends and family stay over and it is so much nicer to cook outside there.

So for me, the mission determines more what I buy... And my wife never accuses me of vanity...haha.

not a real good argument for this discussion for one reason Brad, you are comparing a bargain basement priced to a medium priced bbq, in this range there is a huge difference that you found out like the case material and such, but when you start looking from mid range to high end a lot of the differences are name branding and gimmicks, hmm something like the fish industry.

think back 10 years ago to the debates between extruded and cell cast skimmer bodies, retailers were charging twice as much just because the body was cell cast, did it make a difference on performance nope, but they would have you think it would.

you mentioned having something do what you want it to do in form and function, this is a valid point that I agree whole heartedly with. if you are willing to pay more for a look then it is worth it to you and you get your moneys worth, if you are willing to pay more for special functions then it is worth it to you, but it doesn't mean you get what you pay for, it just means you were willing to pay more for a certain something, and most of the time that certain something has nothing to do with the success of your tank.

I have always been a function over form kind of guy who will have ugly equipment inside a nice stand.

Steve

Sure, go and wreck it. :neutral:

If you don't consider durability and clarity aspects of performance then I would agree. There is a large difference in strength and thickness between cell cast and extruded tube. Extruded acrylic tube is thin and brittle and fractures easily. So if your willing to risk having the bottom of your skimmer blow out if it gets a big bump or break if it falls over then go for it. I however would rather have a skimmer that will last a long time, take abuse and not flood the place. It makes for less worry when sleeping or being away on holidays.

I bought one of those shiny new stainless barbeques at Costco for $109. It can't cook as many burgers or souvlaki as the $500 model and it has rusted out on the burner covers after 2 years. Shoulda spent the $500. I will agree with Brad on this one.

When it comes to fish the difference can be more subtle and devastating. Take for example Flame Angels. The cheap Christmas Islands ones used to be held in plastic cups in the lagoons. They had heat stress issues and were not that strong. Yes they were cheap and they looked like a Flame Angel so everyone buys them. They gleefully brag about how cheap their Flame Angel was until it dies shortly after or only lives 6 months. This gives the other Flame Angels from Hawaii, Marshall Islands and Vanuatu a bad reputation. These Flame angels are more money because there is far more care taken in collection and holding. You get what you pay for.

A friend of mine who used to be in the hobby once calculated the value of fish in his tank verses the amount of money he spent on fish. He purchased all the fish from the same store over a 1 year period. It was a 10 to 1 ratio but the fish were cheap at the store. He learned his lesson.

There is a reason why the German and Japanese LFS are some of the best in the world... you get what you pay for.

Yesterday I paid $18 for a movie ticket. Did I get what I paid for? Yes! I got an $18 movie ticket for the $18.

That's amazing!! So it isn't marketing hype at all. Wow.

Shoulda bought the $23 one much better and the only.way to see a movie lol:pppppp

Is it that you paid $18 because the movie ticket that is $18 or the movie ticket is $18 because you paid $18? Damn close loop!

Way to many long winded post to read!!

Brett, must have been a chick flick you seen for $18 :lol:

I am guessing that includes the complete package which helps you maintain the ionic balance while you dose yourself with popcorn and pop; so that you don't overdose with pop ions. ;)

Please don't. You will hate me and bite off my limbs; I don't wanna loose them yet. Doc said I need to walk a lot to be alive. :redface:

The only time I get what I pay for is Maple Crown Royal....:D

Did you just call me Brett?!?! That's a new low..

My bad, to many long winded post like I said and got you to confused, as you both do kinda look like twins in a Schwarzenegger /DeVito way. :razz:

Just edit that for me ok.

ahh here is the problem, most of the difference was hype from manufactures that were using cell cast, or LFS trying to charge even more, I know of several extruded going for over 20 years now, no yellowing, crazing, etc. there is truth to the slightly thicker and clearer, but skimmers reactors and such are very low if not zero pressure applications so no worry, as for bottom blowing out and such that is from pour gluing and prep not material, I have chunks of extruded I have abused pretty hard and I can tell you its not brittle.


I agreed with him to so don't know what your point is in this one, once again there is a huge difference between bottom end and mid grade, but is there much difference between your 500 buck BBQ and my 2000.00 buck one aside from I can maybe cook a few more burgers and might be sear function that tell you the truth I never use... that was my point mid grade to high grade may not be worth the difference in money


exactly and oh so often we don't get what we pay for in Canada.. we pay way to much for what were getting

Steve

Did you just call me fat???

agreed, personal worth.

my 36" light fixture has a higher replacement value than my primary vehicle (which I also really like).

not everyone gets that.............ok most will never get that!

NOOOOO Never not me I would say some thing like that!!!!

Ok, might be getting a little too political here, but our modern capitalist society is fueled by hype, particularly these days with the interweb at anyone's disposal to sell whatever can be conjured up. Worthwhile products along with snake oil.

As I get older & wiser myself, more & more I see the wisdom in Jack's take on life, despite the fact that I may offend all the Oprah & Dr. Phil fans out there...

https://6t2eag.dm2301.livefilestore....ack.jpg?psid=1

and if you think you didn't get what you paid for, you can always diy or modify it...

https://6t2eag.bay.livefilestore.com...wer.gif?psid=1

However, admittedly, I am still fickle with regard to my spending habits. While I do own Vortech pumps & have no regrets spending the money, I also run an old school air diffuser driven skimmer that came with my used salt water set up. I like to think I did my homework before spending that kind of money on a pump as well as not spending any kind of money on a skimmer.

After many years of retail and consumer experience I do know this: The more hype a product gets the weaker it is. A few examples that people will probably recognize are

1) Movies (the more commercials the worse the movie is)
2) Cellphones (remember the LG Chocolate? How many iphone commercials do you remember seeing on TV?)
3) Chrysler products (flame on!)
4) Women (sorry ladies but I'm sure you'll agree: the more they advertise the less they are worth the trouble)

Totally agree with this. If a product is worth it's weight in gold it will sell itself.

I bought an ecotech PK today. And I will be getting what I paid for :)

hmmm, your listing one of the most advertised brands in history.... but I agree apple is week. :wink:

Steve