I think you missed the point where the overall numbers of Yellow Tangs increased by 35% despite doubling the number collected. It shows that in the case of Yellow Tangs where there is a safe place for them to habituate they can increase their total population. You could also easily wonder if many of the open water fish moved to the protected areas simply to avoid the disruption of boats. It is the overall number you need to concentrate on. Now, if they limited the numbers of Yellow Tangs that could be collected there would be an even further increase in population.

Yes, but the increase was due to a complete ban in certain areas... not a limiting of numbers collected.

Perhaps that's the ticket, leave some safe havens for the tangs to breed. The article does state though that this won't work for all fish, it's a success story for yellow tangs because of their breeding and migration habits.

Exactly. Ban in certain areas, and limit in the rest of the areas. I think proper management is the answer, but it is definitely a lot less paperwork and effort to just wipe the board clear with a complete ban. They need to start looking at other species now to see what can be done to manage the rest.

Would be interesting if all these equipment mfg are lobbying to protect the interests of the aquarium industry. Seems their bread and butter depends on a sustainable collection policy to keep the hobby alive. No salt water fish no sales.

I think a partial ban would be the way to go.

Stop removing delicate/impossible/next-to-impossible to raise species in the wild.

Parrots, Copperbands, etc have a poor survival rate and it is because of the hobbyist not having a clue or poor advice from an LFS.

Some people keep fish successfully. Some do not... and then try again.

Fish are animals too. Some regulation would be good.

I agree.

Myka the hobby is not going anywhere. I think, referring to my other post, some species may become non-existant in the hobby while the captive bred species thrive.

Why is it so bad to protect the ocean. I know you educate yourself well, so I am not going to try convince you, but, we protect other life forms, why not fish?

I made mistakes early on... as we all have... and partly because the LFS says ok.

Maybe its time to start approaching the LFS on this. They make money selling unsuitable fish because we let them.

Anyone walk into their favorite shop and question them on fish such as wild benggai? I have and was met by defensiveness.

Myka this hobby will die on its own if it has no regulations.

Over collection is a fact. Captive bred SHOULD be less expensive, but these facilities need to be maintained and we catch the brunt for a .25 cent fish that costs $25. Breeder needs profit. Then shipping. LFS needs profit. I worked for and LFS and know cost is ridiculously low on individual specimens compared to retail... but its the overhead.

Again. Complete ban no. Conservation of delicate species Yes.

I personally love snorkelling and on two occasions observed illegal collection. Once in Jamaica (4' seafan for drying) and once in Cuba. Sad. I tried to educate them on coral and impact... but money talks. I know sea fans are not fish... but still in the same game.

Reefing is great.

Do you realize that the way it is worded may also prevent OWNERSHIP of reef fish? Those on the pro-ban side are promoting a COMPLETE ban based on what they believe is the IMMORAL keeping of reef fish.

I absolutely am NOT saying that it is bad to protect the ocean. I am PRO-MANAGEMENT. I do not believe a complete ban is the answer, I believe management is the answer.

This is part of the battle! LFS need to get in on this. Most of them are just "sitting there" and watching instead of acting.

No, it is not. Hawaii DAR (Division of Aquatic Resources) has already stated that collection in Hawaii is CURRENTLY SUSTAINABLE. That means at this moment in time, it is already sustainable.

[quote=Hawaii Division of Aquatic Resources DAR]The mission of the Division of Aquatic Resources is to manage, conserve and restore the state's unique aquatic resources and ecosystems for present and future generations.

The DAR manages the state's aquatic resources and ecosystems through programs in commercial fisheries and resource enhancement; aquatic resources protection, habitat enhancement, and education; and recreational fisheries. Major program areas include projects to manage or enhance fisheries for long-term sustainability of the resources, protect and restore the aquatic environment, protect native and resident aquatic species and their habitat, and provide facilities and opportunities for recreational fishing.[quote]

It's not overhead (that refers to building costs), it is shipping and permits that cost so much.

There are very few breeders making money out there because the prices are so low. Breeders have to push quantity. Producing "designer clowns" has helped as well.

Again... I know you educate yourself so I am not debating your points.

But overhead... yes.. building costs... but in this position I use it as anything that eats into profit margins.

I know it is cities and shipping. 100%. Who pays that? LFS. Then they pass it along to us and they won't swallow that for anyone.

I know you are talking FULL ban... and I also mentioned I do not agree that is the way to go.

So come on pretty lady.. go easy on me. I'm on your side... with other thoughts!

Ya, but you said the ban is a good thing. Ban is not good, management is good. You still have to clearly put yourself on the pro-collection side to be on my side, then work on the details. :D

I guarantee, if you put 3 hours into researching the subject yourself you will be as educated as I am. I have just been following the debate, and had a "holy s***" moment when the ban passed. I didn't that was going to happen, I don't think anyone did. If 10% of the reefing community put 3 hours into researching, and put in 15 minutes twice a week to voice their opinion in a few different places then we would stand a chance! The way it is looking right now is not good. The pro-ban people are not going for a settlement at all, they are not interested in regulating collection. They want a complete ban on keeping fish for any purpose, including captive breeding. This ban also spills over into the freshwater fish of Hawaii. Don't forget that Hawaii is the USA, what goes on there could very easily affect the continental US.