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Steve Tyree's chat the other night
Pensions Tony.. Pensions. :D
Adam, I'll look into that one. Thanks. [img]smile.gif[/img] Do you know what the specturm for those things are off hand? Found it.. thanks again Adam. [ 06 June 2002, 12:39: Message edited by: DJ88 ] |
Steve Tyree's chat the other night
Hey Darren, like I said no problem, I just wanted to throw the idea out there :D .
Troy, I totally agree, IMO the main cause of "shimmer" is surface agitation. If I ripple up the surface of my fresh water tank I can get it, very faintly but I can get it :D Victor, I agree with you about there adapting but, I think the idea of the article is what we need to do to get the specific colors. For example to get a UV fluorescing pocilloporin to fluoresces a violet/blue light (400 to 470 nm), we need to provide it with light from 310 to 380 nm (UV-B and UV-A). I used this pocillopori as an example for a reason, no where have I read or heard how much UV we should have or how much, is too much. Steve |
Steve Tyree's chat the other night
If one was considering going a blue 150W halide, it seems to me the choices would be the DE/HQI Radium 20k, or the Iwasaki Aqua (aka "50k").
According to this analysis the Iwasaki Aqua seems to show a spike at 450nm. I can't find a similar spectral analysis for the 150W Radium. Does anyone know of one they can point me to? I wonder which one of those two is the "more blue." (Can you tell, I have a 150W ballast? :D I still haven't decided what to do with it. Supposedly it can do both the DE's and the mogul's though.. so hence the choice between the two bulbs for me.) .. So DJ88, have you figured out yet which blue bulb you're leaning towards (the Sunburst 250W or the Radiums)? It seems to me, that the 400W Radiums, if used on the 430 HPS ballast with starter (ooops pardon me, I mean the "HQI" ballast) or the Bluelines, are good enough to be used on their own, with a PPFD almost equivalent to 250W Iwasakis. Supposedly, if used on a conventional 400W MH ballast, the bulbs are just "blue" and probably should only be supplemental (except that 400W is a lot of juice for a "supplement"). Don't know much about the Sunbursts. Or the 14k's (whoever makes those). I used Hamilton-stamped 14's (175W) over my tank for the first year of me using halides, and I didn't much care for them at the time. They were spent at 6 months, on a 6-hour photoperiod, and at that point seemed to be only good for growing hair algae and cyano. The corals never did much under them (although they sure "looked" good, but the stoneys had very little, if any, growth during that time). So definitely not good enough as the primary light source, but maybe not bad as a supplement to the Iwasaki's... |
Steve Tyree's chat the other night
Tony,
I can't find anything on 150W radiums either. Spectral data that is. You have a 150W ballast huh? It's a start right? I did some pricing for the Iwasaki Aquas. around $140-150 a pop. and you need the medium socket as well. No biggie. gives a bit more room to fit it right? ;) What I want to do and why I want to do it is as follows. I want to ditch my VHO's and other fluorescents over my main tank. If I can get my mitts on some 150W electronic ballasts. :D ;) I will put two Aquas in my lid on either side of the Iwasaki 65KK. Or maybe on in front focused to the middle with a reflector. The main reason is for asthetics. I think it will give a better light as the main area of weakness in the 65KK's spectrum is around 450nm. If I can fill that void I wouldn't need to supplement with VHO's or NO's. plain and simple. As an added bonus I will get MORE PAR with a MH than a VHO or NO. Hands down. If this aids on growth or coloring so be it. Bonus. Personally I am sick of having to supplement my main light with fluorescents. It isn't that bad for needing supplementation but it needs a touch, not like the old Iwasakis. The problem is that it can't be beat by any 250W for intensity a lot of 400W for that matter. I tried a 10KK ushio and it was dim. :rolleyes: So I'll go for the aquas. If it is pleasing to my eye I will use it and that is all that is important. I already know that my 65KK keeps my corals healthy and growing in conjunction with how I look after the water quality. Now I am filling my needs. Does that answer your question about where I am leaning Tony? lol I'd love to get a blueline ballast and throw a 400W radium on my tank. The changes of that happening right now are slimmer than me winning that 34 million super seven the other week. Another reason I am leaning to the Aqua's now is tank size. I only have a 2'x2' footprint. If I was running my 120 I'd have no problem setting up a dual 400W radium with a center 250W Iwasaki. Dream tank. so space is of a premium for me. I'd rather have two/three MH bulbs and maybe one 03 for a sunrise/set effect than the setup I have now. As a bit of an aside since we are chatting about 150W MH. I was talking to Fulham yesterday and again today. Looks like the price they will be selling the new High Horse HID 150W ballast for is about $70US. They will be coming out in about three months. I'll start saving now. [img]smile.gif[/img] I wonder how this puppy will run an aqua. ;) I am already hooked on the workhorse ballasts over anything else available so who knows. :D [ 07 June 2002, 12:23: Message edited by: DJ88 ] |
Steve Tyree's chat the other night
Steve, all I was saying is that pc bulbs and fluorescents are an "unatural" source of light as a supplement becuase they don't create the natural shimmer that a metal halide supplement will. It is unatural to have a static light source of any kind. Do the corals care? Who knows, but I have a feeling they do..
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Steve Tyree's chat the other night
I am the 1st to admit that most of what you guys are saying really goes over my head. I have read Sanjay’s article in the 2002 USA Marine Magazine and I understand part of what he is saying, same goes for what most of you have written down. My understanding of lighting is as such:
1. We need to supply lighting that closely as possible duplicates that sun on the ocean. 2. We have basically 3 types of lighting that comes close to it, MH, HQI, VHO. 3. Each type of lighting has a wattage, the wattage is used primarily to indicate the depth that the light would reach and the strength of the light if a coral was lets say 12” from the bulb. 4. Each bulb has a Kelvin rating - which is the colour spectrum of the bulb. Now my understanding is that the sun has a Kelvin rating of around 5500 – 6000 kelvins. Now if I was to plan on a new tank, say 4’ x 18” depth x 18” width I would use the above information to make my plans. 1. Based upon Sanjay’s article I would use the 2 - 150W HQI 6500K as it seemed to have the best PPFD, (of course I don’t totally understand what PPFD is but I believe it how we measure the bulbs?). 2. I would use 2 VHO’s 96 W to help supplement the lighting since from my basic experience MH seems to have the brightest point directly below the bulb. 3. 1 would use 2 high wattage actincs 45 – 60 W, to supplement the other lighting in the blue colour range. I understand that some people like the blue look so they might have more actincs to show that on their tank. Does my logic make sense or do I have to much lighting? I currently have a 175W 6500 K system (1 month old bulb) with 2 30W actinics ( 4 months old), but I have a yellow tinge to my water. I would like to make it more brighter so I thought of adding 2 small compact lighting that we discussed a few months ago. I am not really looking at the new lighting to add to my colour spectrum, more of a look to the tank. Does this make sense? My last question. Does one form of light interfere with other lighting. Lets say we have a 400W 10K system on my 33G. If the lighting is not giving enough light from a particular colour spectrum and I supplement it with actincs. Would the 400W, be so powerful that it would block the rays from actinics. Sorry guys, hope I haven’t taken this off to a different path? Thanks Patrick |
Steve Tyree's chat the other night
HI patrick,
I try to answer your questions. Hopefully more will jump in. Quote:
2.I'd say two unless you were in a fairly shallow tank. Then it's four. MH & HQI for really intense or deep tanks(even then it depends on wattage), with VHO and PC for shallower tanks. 3.Wattage is the power that the lamp is rated at. How much power it consumes from the ballast basically. Using wattage ratings to decide how deep you can go with corals is misleading. You can have 440W of VHO over a tank and 400W of MH lighting. I'd say you can keep higher light requiring corals in a 24" deep tank no prob with the MH but you'd be really pushing it with the VHO. It's more the intensity that will determine how deep of a tank your lighting is suitable for. That and what kinds of corals you want to keep. If you want low light corals VHO may even be overkill, with SPS and clams getting down to 24" with VHO may be pushing it. 4. Kelvin is the color temperature of a bulb. The color temperature of light refers to the temperature to which one would have to heat a "black body" source to produce light of similar spectral characteristics. Low color temperature implies warmer (more yellow/red) light while high color temperature implies a colder (more blue) light. Color spectrum is a different thing. That is a breakdown of the actual wavelengths of the light. Or frequencies. Thw two are a bit confusingly similar with colors to say the least but they are different. The sun is actually 5500 degrees Kelvin at noon. The problem with measuring the kelvin temperature of a bulb is that it doesn't actually mimic the kelvin temp it is associated with. This is due to the fact that a bulb may emit more energy in one frequency of light that overpowers the others making you think that it is a different kelvin temperature. It fools your eyes. The Iwakasi 6500K does this. You think it is a very yellow bulb which is similar to the sun for temperature. You woudl think it only has spikes in the red/yellow wavelengths. Where it also infact has spikes in the violet and green. Very green. For this reason the colors given a bulb are approximate and not exact color temps. If you do some searching you will find that certain 10KK bulbs may appear to be of a higher temp than 10KK or a 14KK may appear lower than the 14KK. From what I have read the Iwasaki Aqua 50KK is more a 20KK or 14KK bulb. Anyways when you look at a 10KK bulb it looks white. not the blue that 10KK is in fact. Quote:
150W HQI's are bright bulbs. The thing is if you were to read Sanjay's article you will notice that the 150W HQI's were mearured with a reflector where all the others weren't. Most people seem to skip by this point. With a reflector you are measuring close to 100% of its emitted light energy(PPFD) where without a reflector you will only measure the light that is transmitted from the bulb directly to the sensor. So a very small percentage. Throw a reflector on the other bulbs tested and you will probably find that the PPFD readings of the other MH's climb significantly. I know the 150W HQI won't appear near as bright with out that reflector. For saftey reasons you need that refector as it is also a UV shield. Mogul MH bulbs have the UV shield included in the assembly. 2. With a 4' tank since the spread of a MH is usually about 2'. Normally a VHO is used to fill in the color gaps. ie URI super actinics with an Iwasaki 6500K. Unles syou wanted only one area of intense light in a smaller area then lower light corals outside of this area. then you go exactly the route you described. Andrew has this set up now. Allowing him to keep a wider variety of soft/LPS/SPS corals in his tank than I can with the lighting set up I have. This will all depend on what you are wanting to keep in your tank. To me that is the important thing. Don't buy the lights to fit the tank first. Buy the lights to fit the corals you want to keep. My VHO's and NO's are to fill color and for when my MH isn't on. Not to fill gaps in light in the tank. 3. Buying actinics to supplement blue will depend on what you want the color of your tank to appear. Some like lots of blue. Some don't. There really isn't any one recipe for success with lighting. Figure out what you want to keep. Then pick the main lighting and look at other tanks to decided waht colors you want to see as far as lighting goes. Right now I am running one 20W actinic, 2x75W 10KK VHO's and my 250W Iwasaki. I love the look of it. While some people would go ICK. I had a 10KK bulb on here and I didn't like it. Not enough intensity for me. Maybe I'd be happy with the 400W 10KK but who knows. I am happy(for now ;) ) Quote:
Quote:
Did that answer everything? An no worries. any discussion is a good one. :D PS if there is spelling mistakes in here so be it.. My fingers hurt now. :D [ 07 June 2002, 14:18: Message edited by: DJ88 ] |
Steve Tyree's chat the other night
Fantastic info, DJ88.
Just to add a few points. PAR is "photosynthetically active radiation." These are the wavelengths of light, that provoke the most photosynthesis activity in chlorophyll. The more PAR you have, the more photosynthesis is possible. We measure PAR in units of PPFD (photo-something flux density). Sorry, don't really remember what both P's are for offhand. So, more PAR == more growth of corals. But PAR isn't the whole story. You don't really get the spectacular colouration with PAR. (Unless you consider "brown" spectacular :D ). To get really cool colours, you need to have so much intensity of light, that the coral grows pigments to reflect away unnecessary light. What people are now finding that the more blue light there is, the better colour they have on their corals. So, what to make of this? If your goal is "growth but don't care about colour" then go for a high PAR bulb. If your goals is "colour but not necessarily growth" then go for the blue bulbs. If your goal is "both growth AND colour" then you need a mixture of both bulbs. We are now finding out that if run on certain ballasts, the Radium 20000K's bulbs in the 400W size give both a decent PAR (or PPFD) output, and a nice blue light for colouration. What a lot of people have misinterpreted in the MFA2002 article by Sanjay is that they now think a 150W DE bulb gives better PPFD than a 400W bulb. The only point Sanjay was trying to make with this finding is that the efficiency of a bulb can be greatly improved with a proper reflector. You cannot compare a 150W bulb to a 400W bulb. The intensity and spread will be completely different. |
Steve Tyree's chat the other night
Tony,
Thanks for filling a few blanks I left empty. [img]smile.gif[/img] I appreciate it. Good info as well. [img]smile.gif[/img] Great actually. You have just stated in one paragraph 1/2 of the reason I want the 50KK aquas for my tank. Quote:
1. Light 2. Food 3. Water quality 4. Water motion. We can't recreate #2 yet to mimic nature so we overdo the others IMO. Light with the big MH bulbs(PAR and Color temp), water quality we skim or run other methods of waste removal(refugiums, ATS's), water flow we put powerheads, pumps and other assorted devices to carry away wastes and carry food to the corals. Hopefully someday we can recreate all the foodstuffs corals get in nature but till then we have to make up for the areas lacking by our equipment. |
Steve Tyree's chat the other night
I quote part of the study from Steve Tyree
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Iwasaki 6,500 K is the only bulb classified as a Full Spectrum Green bulb. This bulb emits the highest percentage of its light within the green and yellow parts of the spectrum. It also emits significant amounts of violet, blue, orange and red light. About 60 % of the total light emitted by this bulb is either green, yellow or orange light. That type of light is not primarily absorbed by the chlorophyll and peridinin pigments within the algae. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Freeking no.... if we refer to this in fact the iwasaki is bright but 60% of is light is not absobed by the coral. So in fact 40% is the only part that are absobed and the 60% rest is only there to make the coral look less colored (if I understand well) quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Radium/Osram 20,000 K and Sunburst 12,000 K are both classified as Super Blue bulbs. Super Blue bulbs emit the vast majority of their light within wavelengths from 440 to 460 nm (high energy blue). They also emit small amounts of violet and green light. The narrow emission of this bulb happens to be located within an area of the spectrum where chlorophyll_a, chlorophyll_c2 and the peridinin pigments can absorb and utilize the light. The vast majority of the emitted light energy from the Super Blue bulbs is photosynthetically useable by the algae. These bulbs can actually benefit from a boost within the violet area of the spectrum. Most aquarists however will be adding daylight fluorescents to counter the very blue visual appearance of the bulbs. These bulbs will intensely stimulate the blue, green and yellow fluorescing pocilloporin pigments. Red fluorescing pocilloporin will be moderately to strongly stimulated. Super Blue bulbs only provide a weak amount of light that can be absorbed by the pink pocilloporin pigment. The 400 watt version of the Osram/Radium and the 250 watt version of the Sunburst lamps are both useable for shallow water stony corals. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That why if I understand well even if that lamps look more Dim all the light that it produce is absorb by the coral. Suplementing this bulb whith an Iwasaki is not very the best you could do and the best supplement to it could be an Ushio to boost the violet but but it is not require if Im right again Finaly quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Ushio 10,000 K and Aqualine Buschke 10,000 K are Full Spectrum Violet bulbs. The spectral output of these bulbs is characterized by a large emission of violet light along with a secondary emissions of green, yellow and orange light. As Sanjay Joshi noted these bulbs trick the human eye into thinking there are emitting significant amounts of blue light. The significant violet light emission will provide plenty of light for the chlorophyll_a pigments within the algae. These bulbs will really benefit from supplemental blue light. Full Spectrum Violet bulbs will moderately stimulate the fluorescence of the green, yellow and red fluorescing pocilloporins. They will strongly stimulate the fluorescence of the blue and linked red fluorescing pigments. These bulbs only provide a weak amount of light that can be absorbed by the pink pocilloporin pigment. The 400 watt version of the Ushio and Aqualine Buschke are acceptable bulbs, while the 250 watt version of the Double Ended HQI and Aqualine Buschke are also acceptable. Actinic bulbs or Super Violet bulbs are best used as supplemental lights for bulbs that are deficient in violet light emission. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If Im right those 10k bulb are not realy the best and need to be supplement by super blue light So my conclusion here is that the best light you could have by there own is the radium or even a sunburst but the sunburst are dim The best Combo could be Radium or sunburst + Ushio or AB 150W If I stick to Steve we do exacly the oposite of what he clame we suplement whith blue he said get blue and supplement whit small 10k :confused: |
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