not nessasarly true.. dogs do need some carbs, unlike cats. the issue is which sources they are using for carbs. potatos, whole veggies, fruit, ect = ok, grain, rice, yeast, ect = not ok. also you have to look at the type of meat, by-products = garbage and then the amount of meat compared to other things.

the biggest problem is big companies like nestle, dare, ect are buying up the dog food companies to they can use there byproducts from making other things as filler in dog and cat food, so they save money two ways.

I will stick with champion foods, small alberta company that makes orijen, arcana, and one other line they do everything in house from making the food to packaging, and they source quality local ingreadiants. family run, and they feed it to there own pets.. doesn't hurt that it is concidered one of the best dog foods out there also..

Steve

Wow, thanks for all the feedback!!

I have a small update on our vet situation; Sophie, our Mini Schnauzer, went in for her annual exam on Tuesday. Our last vet left the clinic and moved to Victoria a few months ago.

Sophie is terrified of the vet since she got spayed last year and was shaking pretty badly. The first thing the new guy asked me when we go there (before I had even put her on the table) was; what do you feed her? That immediately got my back up. I told him, and he said we should be feeding MediCal; it would help her 'severe' anxiety and would be good for her teeth. - Are you kidding me?!!. I informed him that he was there to provide medical services for my animals and not to sell me dog food.

Apparently I also have a bad attitude about vaccinations, as I asked him to make sure that he was not about to give her the one she had a past reaction to and he got really offended and never actually gave her any vaccination. He said if I did not want his advice, we could take our animals elsewhere. So I took Sophie and walked out. The next morning I called and asked them for out pet's records.

I now have an appointment with a holistic vet, whom has had fantastic recommendations from several people in our community. He feeds raw and I'm really excited for our appointment next week.

I don't feed anything but meat. Every (prepared) diet i read about mentions using veggies (presumeably as filler), however dogs don't produce enough enzyme (amalayse, I believe) to digest it. And anytime the dogs take it upon themselves to munch on some grass, it comes out the same way it went in.
The whole "wolves eat stomach contents" argument does not adequately prove anything, as many reasearchers have witnessed that the contents are shaken away and discarded, and any that is consumed is simply secondary to eating the stomach itself. Also, the volume of said contents is insignificant at best.
I feed a big variety of meat (chicken, beef, deer, fish) with organ meats and an occasional egg.
No veggies at all.
Lots of people on both sides of this fence, but dogs, as demonstrated by their dental structure, are carnivores.

That's a whole 'nother thread :)

I'd love to but after the last visit, I am never going back. It has become very apparent that his solution to everything is either Medi-Cal or the pheromones he sells to calm cats/dogs down for around $100 each. My problem is not whether these products are useful or not but that he doesn't really do much thinking about the problem, just reverts back to food every time. Or when my cat had a blood shoot eye, he blamed the stress of a new dog and wanted me to buy these pheromones for $100...turned out the cat had some hair in his eye and once I removed it, his eye cleared up :)

ahh but the link you sent me to read about this stuff mentioned grasses, fruit and veggies as an important part of there diet, just not in large amounts. I know both my monsters eat grass like there is no tomorrow and if there are any fruits on the ground from the trees they are gone.

Steve

Its a tough call, since none of us are nutritionists specializing in canine and feline health. I would LOVE to talk to one one day and get the inside scoop on what they actually can and can't digest. I understand their digestive tract is too short to digest cellulose, but does that also mean they cannot absorb vitamins and minerals from some vegetables (read some, obviously it will do no good feeding them celery :neutral:). I wonder also if the veggies are added simply to aid in passing the food, to a similar effect that grass aids in it. The percentage of veggies in a lot of the premade raw diets is low enough that i doubt they are doing it as filler. But it also depends on the veggies themselves, because some are good but some are not. I agree though that it would make sense to feed dogs mostly (if not all) meat- which includes bone and organ meats.

But you know, as long as you are not feeding your dog Iams or Eukanuba (isnt it the same company?) or any of that shiznit, then you are doing your dog and the food industry in general a favor. Buy a good quality kibble or raw food, check the ingredients, (and as forementioned make sure its not rendered meats or meat byproducts) and feed your dog a variety.

We should ALL be aware of where our meat comes from. Modern society is treating its food animals like crap, and ultimately everyone's health will suffer from it. Where do you like swine flu and sars and all these viruses are originating? Animal farms. Buy local, organic, free range, wild, whatever you can. I have made the choice to stop consuming factory produced animal products... and I am really trying for my dogs as well.

-Diana

thats what made me decide on the Orijen, 70%proteen, 30%fruit and veg, 0% grains. they got a white paper on there site to explain why they canme up with this formula and the benifits, and rfeasons for picking the fruit and veg that they did. actualy an interesting read.

Steve

Hey,

Sorry I dont have time to read the thread, but here are some specs:

Some of the best dry foods you can feed your pets if you choose to use these, or keep them as a back-up for the raw (which is what we do):

Orijen, Acana, and Evo something(I think someone can fill that in)? Thats just what I Can remember off the top of my head but you CANNOT go wrong with them. I personally use Acana with my dog (started using it 4 years ago) and he is in amazing health.

In the last 2 years though we switched to Raw dog food (actually we prepare MOST of it at home, literally from scratch ingredients). But we do buy patties of lamb/bison/elk on occasion, and when we first started we used chicken and beef, now he gets mostly deer patties, with some bison/lamb on occasion, or else beef. We mix in items like heart, liver, and bones into the formual we grind up ourselves. The dog also needs some vegetable matter (un-cooked), this we do sometimes mix in but I like to make purees for him as an 'afternoon snack'. THey can also have yogurt(and other milk-products) and some grains, but only in small quantities. You'll be able to find a list of safe/good ingredients of all that stuff tons of places - or, buy a book on raw food. I've read a few, and they are loaded with info.

Raw food is the most natural way for your animals to aquire their nutrients - it is what their stomach will be able to process the easiest and most completely. Your dog/cat are 'domesticated', yes, but biologically, they are still wild animals. Most dry foods are processed, full of fillers and other crap as im sure you noticed. The enzymes in their digestive systems just dont deal with this stuff. Dogs/cats (moreso dogs) do need some veggie matter - ever notice your dog eating grass? berries off trees? My dog goes berry picking in the summer, and eats things like asparagus, alphafa, and grazing grasses. THey also ingest the stomach/intestinal contents of the animals they would naturally kill, = veggie matter. So it is important.

These are benefits associated with quality foods and raw, that i have also noticed in my own dog:
Switching to better quality dry foods and/or raw dog food: healthier coat, less fat/more muscle, less 'doggy' odour, happier animal (feeding time is tons of fun with raw, especially when he gets Raw Meaty Bones), lower vet bills, longer life-spans.

My dog started on Acana at 9 years old and is now 13, he smells less, has a nice coat, has tons of muscle, is still plenty active, and hes a BIG chocolate lab. The only thing is he is going deaf, but I hardly doubt that is a consequence of food-choice. The vet is very happy with him.

You may notice that many(most) people feeding raw, often have old dogs that are still in great health, and also have less medical complications. Its simply more natural, and healthier. You just have to ensure you get the right balance of ingredients, which is not too hard to do. And if you want to switch just to a better dry food, the results are similar, but again raw is best. It may be domestic, but in the end the animal is still 'wild'... its not like processed food is good for anyone anyways... its bad for people too, lol.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,

Chris


PS. - Your vet is on crack... he/she is getting payed to endorse whatever food they carry. Ever notice how a vet clinic often has one specific brand of poopy 'vet-specialty' food? Also, vets lose business if you pet is healthier - sick pets = vet money. They are not like the human healthcare system. If your vet does not support REAL quality dry foods or raw, find a new vet. Many vets will be welcome to these ideas, and you'll definetly go back to a vet who is encouraging you right? They know they wont lose business for encouraging the right pet-care.

If you want to be believed then be very careful about making statements like this
.....We had a labrador that lived to be nearly 18, was fed Dog Chow all her life and never went to the vet. I also have a shih-tzu that will be 16 in march, fed kibble all her life and the only vet bills I've had other then vaccinations is for teeth cleaning